Interesting, panic and PG?

[Myk]

3 years ago I ended up quitting after a month of vaping. I thought it was that I couldn't deal with ingesting something from China. The panic kept on building and my lungs kept on feeling heavy until I decide to hang it up for a while.

I recently saw Johnson Creek was claiming 100% USA ingredients so I decided to give it a try again (should show up tomorrow). I also thought on the off chance PG was the problem I'd try the 100% VG.

In getting my RN-4072s ready for vaping I was breaking them in after sitting for so long. Inhaling a little 0mg PG with the first atty gave me a sore throat.
When I found my second atty after the sore throat was gone I tried to inhale less but I ended up with painful lungs. What really helped was a long hot shower. I figured the PG dried me out too much.
I was way more panicked this morning than I usually get when at home, this was 2 days since vaping, lung almost feel normal.
This time was definitely worse and faster than 3 years ago but very similiar. Either the juice got worse in time or I handle it worse.

I was just cleaning out some of the 0mg PG trying to get to a dry burn and definitely not inhaling any. I got panicky, my head got tingly, my chest got tight and now I'm getting a headache.
Hopefully with this more standard PG allergy tingling/headache reaction the issue is the PG and VG will work out for me.

 

[KumariHPX]

3 years ago I ended up quitting after a month of vaping. I thought it was that I couldn't deal with ingesting something from China.

Are you serious?

 

[Myk]

Are you serious?

I'm serious about the whole thing.
If you're questioning only the part about China, I have panic disorder, I can get panicked about going a mile to Super Walmart and the disorder part has me do everything to avoid the panic which is how it often leads to agoraphobia.

Whether the PG does something to me that specifically causes panic or if it's the heavy lung feeling the PG causes that causes the panic I don't know.
I do know a week on PG free and I've had very little panic.

 

[Zelphie]

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927239

Scroll down to "Special remarks on other toxic effects on humans".

The reason I point this out is that I have been wondering for a long time if pg may speed up brain wave activity ( according to this it can but at what concentration?), and for those that have severe anxiety problems, this may be noticed and problematic. Thats just a query/theory however.

Ive felt "effects" of higher anxiety and shakiness for a long time when I vape to much. Im not declaring a causal relationship nessicarily, but I am concered over something that happens very regularly without any other known changes to precipitate it.

Did I write that politically correct enough?

 

[Myk]

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927239

Scroll down to "Special remarks on other toxic effects on humans".

The reason I point this out is that I have been wondering for a long time if pg may speed up brain wave activity ( according to this it can but at what concentration?), and for those that have severe anxiety problems, this may be noticed and problematic. Thats just a query/theory however.

Ive felt "effects" of higher anxiety and shakiness for a long time when I vape to much. Im not declaring a causal relationship nessicarily, but I am concered over something that happens very regularly without any other known changes to precipitate it.

Did I write that politically correct enough?

It's a good thing I'm not going to try PG again or I'd be in big trouble after reading that
Especially since I just got a juice shipment and I've got a nicotine tingle from trying too many flavors too fast.
That has convinced me not to try PG again. I can see where those possibilities could end up making my body react with panic.

After reading that and my recent experience with PG being even more drastic I just wonder if it wasn't giving me panic 3 years ago and I was looking for a reason so China got the blame.
It would be nice if I could talk myself into that and find Chinese VG to save some money

I was just thinking PG made me feel bad, now I'm wondering if it doesn't trigger something related to the reason I'm prone to being panicked.

 

[Gingerzeronic]

I'm serious about the whole thing.
If you're questioning only the part about China, I have panic disorder, I can get panicked about going a mile to Super Walmart and the disorder part has me do everything to avoid the panic which is how it often leads to agoraphobia.

Whether the PG does something to me that specifically causes panic or if it's the heavy lung feeling the PG causes that causes the panic I don't know.
I do know a week on PG free and I've had very little panic.

I also have an anxiety disorder and I've experienced panic attacks so I know exactly what you mean. Your symptoms sound like anxiety to me - not an allergic reaction.

It may be that vaping itself is not for you. People with anxiety are often more sensitive to environmental issues. You may have adapted to analogs over the years but this new stimulus is causing problems.

You can try the new stuff and see how it goes.

You can reduce the nic in the new stuff and see if that helps (reduce a lot).

You can decide that vaping isn't for you.

If the it's the last thing - all isn't lost. Get Carr's book and read it about 10 times. Yes, it's repetitive but there's a reason for that. He's deconditioning you.

I've pretty much quit everything using ecigs, Carr, and being motivated to lessen my stress by listening to binaural beats. I didn't start out with that in mind but after joining up here with a zero nic goal, it just turned out that way. It was way easier than I ever thought.

Not saying that's your path but if it is, don't worry about it. It's the anticipation that's so bad - not the doing.

 

[Myk]

I also have an anxiety disorder and I've experienced panic attacks so I know exactly what you mean. Your symptoms sound like anxiety to me - not an allergic reaction.

It may be that vaping itself is not for you. People with anxiety are often more sensitive to environmental issues. You may have adapted to analogs over the years but this new stimulus is causing problems.

You can try the new stuff and see how it goes.

You can reduce the nic in the new stuff and see if that helps (reduce a lot).

You can decide that vaping isn't for you.

If the it's the last thing - all isn't lost. Get Carr's book and read it about 10 times. Yes, it's repetitive but there's a reason for that. He's deconditioning you.

I've pretty much quit everything using ecigs, Carr, and being motivated to lessen my stress by listening to binaural beats. I didn't start out with that in mind but after joining up here with a zero nic goal, it just turned out that way. It was way easier than I ever thought.

Not saying that's your path but if it is, don't worry about it. It's the anticipation that's so bad - not the doing.

So far no problem with the VG. (Well, until tonight when I jabbed myself almost clear through my finger with an 18ga needle, that caused quite a panic attack and the thought of infection is still roaming around, I've since cut the points off my needles.)
It's been a week of heavy vaping.
Whether it was the PG or not I'm going to avoid it because I feel much better with the PG free. If it was the thought of Chinese nicotine that's easily avoided.

I have a dental fear and just had my first root canal that took about a month to get the appointment. The anticipation of the unknown that long was terrible. It wasn't as bad as getting a filling. My comment about it was, "that was a whole lot of panic put to waste".

 

[Gingerzeronic]

That's way we're made. I hope this works out for you but if it doesn't, like I said, you can stop all of it when the time comes.

 

[idahohermit]

Myk, have you tried the WTA (Whole Tobacco Alkaloid) eliquid? It contains natural tobacco MAOIs. I have two separate anxiety disorders and this stuff is amazing. It's not for everyone, and affects everyone differently. I feel that it works even better than analogs...a definite calming effect. It took me four days and five analogs to quit. The only reason I had those five analogs was: (1) Just the habit of lighting up, (2) Testing to see if the WTA was really working...boy! does it ever. You can get it from Aroma EJuce (a forum approved vendor). Read up on it and see if you'd like to try it. It does have pg in it but mostly vg. Best of luck to you.

 

[Myk]

Myk, have you tried the WTA (Whole Tobacco Alkaloid) eliquid? It contains natural tobacco MAOIs. I have two separate anxiety disorders and this stuff is amazing. It's not for everyone, and affects everyone differently. I feel that it works even better than analogs...a definite calming effect. It took me four days and five analogs to quit. The only reason I had those five analogs was: (1) Just the habit of lighting up, (2) Testing to see if the WTA was really working...boy! does it ever. You can get it from Aroma EJuce (a forum approved vendor). Read up on it and see if you'd like to try it. It does have pg in it but mostly vg. Best of luck to you.

I'm not having a problem desiring cigarettes. The habit of looking for a pack is still there but the e-cig satisfies the desire.

I hadn't thought of the possible calming effect of WTA. Even if/when I got to 0mg I planned on keeping nicotine on hand for that bad panic cycle years down the road.

I have noticed the deep inhale and blowing out vapor gives me the same relaxing feeling.
Last time I started smoking cigarettes again I was off them for 2 years and only smoking a pipe (not inhaled). I wonder if you get the WTAs without inhaling.

 

[idahohermit]

I wonder if you get the WTAs without inhaling.

Yes, you do. Even with just nic eliquid you do. Most of it is absorbed through the mucus membranes in your mouth and nose. That's probably why the pipe worked for you.

 

[Myk]

Yes, you do. Even with just nic eliquid you do. Most of it is absorbed through the mucus membranes in your mouth and nose. That's probably why the pipe worked for you.

Either that or the fact I have about 100 of them and kept one burning constantly for the first 6 months and used super high nicotine tobaccos that turn most people green

Well if I can get it with a pipe I don't plan on quitting those. I'd still smoke cigars too but the SCHIPs tax made them too expensive for what you get.

 

[hairball]

I've been vaping DeKang for 1.5 years now. I'm still upright and vertical. Don't be scared to vape China stuff. Majority of the nicotine base that vendors use come from China.

 

[Myk]

I've been vaping DeKang for 1.5 years now. I'm still upright and vertical. Don't be scared to vape China stuff. Majority of the nicotine base that vendors use come from China.

I check before ordering.
If you happen to know that their supplier gets it from China don't tell me about it. If I could talk sense to my panic I wouldn't have it.
It's like driving across the river, a trip I've made literally thousands of times in my life. I just can't do it without Xanax no matter how rational I try to be about it.

 

[Zelphie]

Its interesting because the info papers on pg state central nervous system depression and brain states that are speed up such as seizures, but of course this is in quantities we dont actually take in. Dose does make the poision, but I also wonder if theres a connection to a very low level, but similar reaction to this and some of the things Ive heard such as a few people feeling tired after vaping or me and you for ex. having had worse anxiety and becoming very shakey.

I certainly didnt mean to make you stop vaping by posting that. You could try again with a different base, a different flavor, or different seller.

I never had any worse reactions to chinese liquid than any other, but everyones different. And while is impossible to tell for sure where your and my reactions came from and why, the bottom line is you HAVE to be comfortible with your decision regardless. That said, I hope VG works well for you.

 

[mechanus]

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927239

Scroll down to "Special remarks on other toxic effects on humans".

The reason I point this out is that I have been wondering for a long time if pg may speed up brain wave activity ( according to this it can but at what concentration?)

Zelphie, the concentration (for animals) is noted at the beginning of the toxicological section:

Toxicity to Animals:
Acute oral toxicity (LD50): 18500 mg/kg [Rabbit]. Acute dermal toxicity (LD50): 20800 mg/kg [Rabbit].

Acute oral toxicity, tested on rabbits, was 18.5 grams per kilogram of body weight. For someone that weighs 70 Kg (about 135 lbs), they would have to ingest 1,295 g (1.29 Kg, or about 2.9 lbs) in a single sitting. This is, of course, assuming that toxicological tolerance is similar between the test subjects and humans. You will most likely (modernly, never) find a test conducted on human subjects (not in lab conditions or even a scientific case study) due to ethical concerns. However, longitudinal studies of "volunteers" (such as vapers) may provide some correlative data, it will probably never appear in an MSDS, since control elements are nonexistent (vapers will probably be using flavored PG, PG with nicotine, or mixed content PG - the experimental model would not be able to test and certify what is being consumed).

No specifics are given for teratogenic effects caused by chronic ingestion - even though there is a note that this was extrapolated from animal test data. No chronic ingestion toxicity levels are given, so we really only have the acute numbers to go by. How many micrograms of PG do we actually ingest in each puff is an exercise that we'll never agree on unless some one actually measures it (and then it would really only be important for that cartomizer or atomizer/cartridge combination, at a certain force, with a 100% pure PG solution).

I do advise to err on the side of caution. If you believe that you have symptoms of PG allergies (and have similar reactions to other products that contain high percentages of PG), then by all means do switch to VG. It may alleviate any physical or psychosomatic symptoms and you'll feel better about it. It's not uncommon to have allergies to something because you think it will give you allergies (I suffered with that for years with tomatoes, I think - eating a tomato would make me get hives, but no problems with tomato paste - homemade tomato paste, at that).

 

[chad]

I was way more panicked this morning than I usually get when at home, this was 2 days since vaping, lung almost feel normal.

I have panic disorder...

As a doctor once told me: "If you hear hooves in New York City, it's probably not a zebra."

You state have a panic disorder. You probably have problems with anxiety. I'd guess vaping gives you anxiety because you're worried about the health effects, ingredients, unknown potentials, etc... That drives your anxiety to panic. The vaping is a catalyst but probably not chemically speaking.

Are you receiving treatment (medication or behavioral) for the anxiety? That's probably the first thing you should worry about. Also, the lack of nicotine in your vape could be setting you off as well, especially if you're used to a lot of nicotine (which could be relieving the anxiety disorder a bit), and you suddenly stop to vape 0mg juice.

I am not a doctor. This is not medical advice. I have an anxiety disorder as well and until I did something about that, the panics would come at the strangest times. Vaping has never set it off for me, but I freak out about restaurant food sometimes.

 

[Myk]

Its interesting because the info papers on pg state central nervous system depression and brain states that are speed up such as seizures, but of course this is in quantities we dont actually take in. Dose does make the poision, but I also wonder if theres a connection to a very low level, but similar reaction to this and some of the things Ive heard such as a few people feeling tired after vaping or me and you for ex. having had worse anxiety and becoming very shakey.

I certainly didnt mean to make you stop vaping by posting that. You could try again with a different base, a different flavor, or different seller.

I never had any worse reactions to chinese liquid than any other, but everyones different. And while is impossible to tell for sure where your and my reactions came from and why, the bottom line is you HAVE to be comfortible with your decision regardless. That said, I hope VG works well for you.

Don't worry, you didn't stop me. IF I was still vaping PG that MSDS would've freaked me out. But I'm vaping PG free so it's all good.

 

[Myk]

As a doctor once told me: "If you hear hooves in New York City, it's probably not a zebra."

You state have a panic disorder. You probably have problems with anxiety. I'd guess vaping gives you anxiety because you're worried about the health effects, ingredients, unknown potentials, etc... That drives your anxiety to panic. The vaping is a catalyst but probably not chemically speaking.

Are you receiving treatment (medication or behavioral) for the anxiety? That's probably the first thing you should worry about. Also, the lack of nicotine in your vape could be setting you off as well, especially if you're used to a lot of nicotine (which could be relieving the anxiety disorder a bit), and you suddenly stop to vape 0mg juice.

I am not a doctor. This is not medical advice. I have an anxiety disorder as well and until I did something about that, the panics would come at the strangest times. Vaping has never set it off for me, but I freak out about restaurant food sometimes.

That's what I wrote it off as last time. But this time was without Chinese nicotine to worry about and US made PG juice. I wasn't going without cigarettes so I was getting nicotine.
It wasn't until now that I drew the possible line between PG and panic. I do not differentiate whether that line is a direct cause or if it's that the PG simply makes me feel bad and the feeling bad triggers the panic.

I have Xanax and I'm much better than I've been at times.

 

[Gingerzeronic]

I'm not having a problem desiring cigarettes. The habit of looking for a pack is still there but the e-cig satisfies the desire.

I hadn't thought of the possible calming effect of WTA. Even if/when I got to 0mg I planned on keeping nicotine on hand for that bad panic cycle years down the road.

I have noticed the deep inhale and blowing out vapor gives me the same relaxing feeling.
Last time I started smoking cigarettes again I was off them for 2 years and only smoking a pipe (not inhaled). I wonder if you get the WTAs without inhaling.

It's the deep breathing that's relaxing you. Nicotine has it's fun points but it's a CNS stimulator. The drug winds you up but the habits associated with it smooth you out.

You might try vaping 0% nic deep and slow and see how you feel during that. If it doesn't work, you can always add WTA and experiment.