Iron Lung REOnauts *Sub-OHM*

[GreatestUnKnown]

I picked up some of that DeoxIT Gold and have noticed that even though there is still arcing the degree of intensity is lessened as well as there is no oxidation or pitting (as far as I can see) on the battery contact or firing pin. I think I read Darkzero suggest this stuff back in the pdib/dz mod thread but I wasn't vaping at 0.30Ω and below back then so didn't heed the great suggestion.

 

[Quigsworth]

Good to hear...

I just took mine out of the envelope...and I know just the 2 mods that'll be getting a treatment...will report my findings...

 

[MattyB1503]

I'll expand on this later but wanted to say I noticed my new vtc5's are getting annihilated. Two days on a Reo and they look way worse then even a Sony 26650 I've taken down below 0.2

Today I started to look at what's going on.

My one at least does not hold a vtc flush against the delrin. Basically the length of a cylinder's footprint is a line, not exactly ideal (referencing the top contact). But, if your battery is not flush to the delrin you'll get an even smaller contact footprint..

Flux, and not talking the solder or back to the future type. Current per in^2.

So I shimmed the battery (with a piece of business card) and I noticed a considerable drop in acring.

If that contact could just have more surface are/larger footprint it would really limit the fireworks.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[MattyB1503]

Here are some tidbits on arcing from one of our resident bad asses @Quigsworth:







And here's the thread where I crept that post from:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=563707


It's all good bro. What I learned is that arcing occurs in all mods it's just that you can see it in a REO

Thanks for the reply X.

I was brought up to believe though, whenever someone says always or never they're either not considered the whole picture or non-technical.

In my OP I'm saying 'minor negative'. If I didn't have love for my Reo I'd be in the classified, not here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[Quigsworth]

I'll expand on this later but wanted to say I noticed my new vtc5's are getting annihilated. Two days on a Reo and they look way worse then even a Sony 26650 I've taken down below 0.2

Today I started to look at what's going on.

My one at least does not hold a vtc flush against the delrin. Basically the length of a cylinder's footprint is a line, not exactly ideal (referencing the top contact). But, if your battery is not flush to the delrin you'll get an even smaller contact footprint..

Flux, and not talking the solder or back to the future type. Current per in^2.

So I shimmed the battery (with a piece of business card) and I noticed a considerable drop in acring.

If that contact could just have more surface are/larger footprint it would really limit the fireworks.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

I agree...for such a great batt I'm not really impressed with the wrap on the Sonys, looks like some kid with a heat gun did it...it's almost like the wrap is too thick...been using my Pani's for months and never had an issue...got a couple weeks on the Sony's and they look like they've tossed in a garburator.

Getting them to sit nice against the delrin is tough.

 

[Quigsworth]

Thanks for the reply X.

I was brought up to believe though, whenever someone says always or never they're either not considered the whole picture or non-technical.

In my OP I'm saying 'minor negative'. If I didn't have love for my Reo I'd be in the classified, not here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

I didn't mean to come across as some snarky ... hat...and fair comment...however, without boring peeps with my technical background I will stand on my statement that when a DC current feeding a coil (especially a micro coil, it's a whole concentrated lines of magnetic flux thing...) is interrupted, the magnetic field produced surrounding the coil by the current collapses. In the process of collapsing, the lines of magnetic flux re-cut through the coil which induces another voltage (called back EMF). Because the field collapses so fast, this voltage can be quite high...it's this instant, very short lived potential that induces an arc on button release...the only way to really negate this arc is to provide a pathway for this potential spike to dissipate, typically a diode is used...there's a bunch of other crap going on there as well but suffice it to say, arcing (especially on button release) is pretty much unavoidable, I didn't write the laws of physics, it's just the way it is...

 

[patrao_n]

With the vtc I have moved my spring. I made it slightly more towards the door. This forces the battery to sit correctly. Also I have noticed, if you slide the door down, sometimes the magnet pulls the battery out of place a bit.

Sent from my Reo Grand 3.0

 

[MattyB1503]

I didn't mean to come across as some snarky ... hat...and fair comment...however, without boring peeps with my technical background I will stand on my statement that when a DC current feeding a coil (especially a micro coil, it's a whole concentrated lines of magnetic flux thing...) is interrupted, the magnetic field produced surrounding the coil by the current collapses. In the process of collapsing, the lines of magnetic flux re-cut through the coil which induces another voltage (called back EMF). Because the field collapses so fast, this voltage can be quite high...it's this instant, very short lived potential that induces an arc on button release...the only way to really negate this arc is to provide a pathway for this potential spike to dissipate, typically a diode is used...there's a bunch of other crap going on there as well but suffice it to say, arcing (especially on button release) is pretty much unavoidable, I didn't write the laws of physics, it's just the way it is...

Well I'll be the first to admit my strongest suit lies in the mechanical field. Although I do have pretty good understanding I'm no EE.

I'd like to think the switch assembly of my mod doesn't acr but that was not specially addressed in beta. Load testing was done over an extended period down to... well breaching 0.10 ; however points of interest were button heating and 'signs' of arcing (presence of oxidation, carbon or pitting). I am more than satisfied but if the question was posed "does your switch acr" my best answer would be "no signs of arcing were found EDIT: No signs of acing were found under 1X magnification (with the naked human eye)".

However, I have used the vtc (3,4&5) for probably the better part of a year in all my personal 18650 mods. This is the first time I have encountered anything like this, or I guess more specifically acring to this degree.

I do find it interesting that this seems to be limted to or possibly more prevalent in the Sony's. I wonder if it has to do with... hum how to quantify, maybe call it CCR per in^2 of contact footprint. Idk, it could just be the material of the battery terminals themselves (??).

Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to say is this has grabbed my attention (at least for the time being) because I am so impressed with my Reo. I am not in direct completion with ReoMods, nor would I ever want to be. If my post come off as overly negative that is defiantly not my intention. Quite the opposite; nowdays if something rubs me the wrong way I chuck it in the bin, sell it a loss or give it way.

Sparks and all I'm still rockin mine. Actually I bought it as a driver, but it seems to be coming with me more often then not. The convince factor is undeniable.

Sweet avatar btw, movie is def in my top 10.

 

[Quigsworth]

I have to say, your comments have got me thinking...so last night I did some testing of my own...these are a couple home brew mechs I've built, the woodvil mod is built in the "Grand" tradition...mechanically force the contact (in this case an actual S/O strip from Rob) into direct contact with the pos. terminal of the batt. The 2nd is my hillbilly attempt at "paired contacts" or, the 2 contact points don't change with a batt. swap.



I've stuck VTC4's and 5's, Pani's and SX30's in both (same build, .4(ish) duals, both immeasurably low cct R Atomic hybrid mods) and turned out the lights...

I'm inclined to agree with you Matty...there is something up with the Sony's pos terminal??? I get the expected tick of arc on release on both mods...EXCEPT, as soon as I stick the VTC4's and 5's in the woodvil it just lights up...I think it's safe to conclude that from that, it's not the batt function, its a contact/terminal thing...

So, to put to bed the thought that it may be Robs S/O strip, I took it out and stuck a spare straight beryllium strip in (it's been polished to a mirror finish...a proven contact)...same thing, arcs like nobodies business...

...it's the pos. terminal of the Sony's that's jiggy

I'm going to take a walk through some flashlight forums and see if it's just us (those hardcore flashlight guys are just as nuts)

On a side note...another reason I was doing this testing was to see just how effective the Di-oxit Gold is...my recommendations...spend the $10 and pick up a tube, that little tube will last us forever and it works very well at cleaning (it literally dissolves the oxidization) and after vaping all day on just a stock Grand, I slid a tissue across the contact and it came out nice and clean (save for the yellowish smear of Di-oxit)...now that Rob has moved over to the big-boy S/O contacts (with some surface area) he should really offer this stuff on his site...in fact, it may be worth starting a thread over...

 

[B2L]

Great info Quigsworth, thanks!

 

[GreatestUnKnown]

I'm inclined to agree with you Matty...there is something up with the Sony's pos terminal??? I get the expected tick of arc on release on both mods...EXCEPT, as soon as I stick the VTC4's and 5's in the woodvil it just lights up...I think it's safe to conclude that from that, it's not the batt function, its a contact/terminal thing...

...it's the pos. terminal of the Sony's that's jiggy

I'm going to take a walk through some flashlight forums and see if it's just us (those hardcore flashlight guys are just as nuts)

I will be interested to hear your findings, are you on the Candle Power forums? I also like you idea of the paired contact method, I thought about taking a contact out of say like a clone nemesis and attaching it to the end of the firing in and bottom of the REO button to give a wider/consistent contact point with the pos battery terminal, maybe now that I have a few Grands to play with I will actually do it to it...

So are you saying that it could be the VTC battery lines positive contact material causing the severe arcing/pitting/oxidation paired with the BeCu? I used to pair and wrap my own cells for 1/10th RC Cars and don't mind finding a better material for these batteries if need be.

On a side note...another reason I was doing this testing was to see just how effective the Di-oxit Gold is...my recommendations...spend the $10 and pick up a tube, that little tube will last us forever and it works very well at cleaning (it literally dissolves the oxidization) and after vaping all day on just a stock Grand, I slid a tissue across the contact and it came out nice and clean (save for the yellowish smear of Di-oxit)...now that Rob has moved over to the big-boy S/O contacts (with some surface area) he should really offer this stuff on his site...in fact, it may be worth starting a thread over...

I thought about this as well but increased inventory, funds away from current projects and the fact that it seems that most people who are truly concerned with the arcing and oxidation are those of us who are dropping well below .50Ω on a daily basis and if you are vaping at that low of resistance you should be willing to invest your own funds to procure the DeoxIT Gold or comparable electrical contact solution.

 

[Dconnor]

Have not tested the Sony's, however was just buying some batts at a local B&M, and was comparing the Sony and Efest. Bought the Efest because I did not like the looks of the tops on the Sony button tops. Salesman told me the Sony button tops were just added on after to a flat top. Not sure how accurate that is but will say the button was smaller and did not appear to be of the same quality material.

 

[GreatestUnKnown]

Have not tested the Sony's, however was just buying some batts at a local B&M, and was comparing the Sony and Efest. Bought the Efest because I did not like the looks of the tops on the Sony button tops. Salesman told me the Sony button tops were just added on after to a flat top. Not sure how accurate that is but will say the button was smaller and did not appear to be of the same quality material.

Rumor is the EFest 35A 2500mAh are rebadged LG HE2

 

[MattyB1503]

I have to say, your comments have got me thinking...so last night I did some testing of my own...these are a couple home brew mechs I've built, the woodvil mod is built in the "Grand" tradition...mechanically force the contact (in this case an actual S/O strip from Rob) into direct contact with the pos. terminal of the batt. The 2nd is my hillbilly attempt at "paired contacts" or, the 2 contact points don't change with a batt. swap.

View attachment 344494View attachment 344496

I've stuck VTC4's and 5's, Pani's and SX30's in both (same build, .4(ish) duals, both immeasurably low cct R Atomic hybrid mods) and turned out the lights...

I'm inclined to agree with you Matty...there is something up with the Sony's pos terminal??? I get the expected tick of arc on release on both mods...EXCEPT, as soon as I stick the VTC4's and 5's in the woodvil it just lights up...I think it's safe to conclude that from that, it's not the batt function, its a contact/terminal thing...

So, to put to bed the thought that it may be Robs S/O strip, I took it out and stuck a spare straight beryllium strip in (it's been polished to a mirror finish...a proven contact)...same thing, arcs like nobodies business...

...it's the pos. terminal of the Sony's that's jiggy

I'm going to take a walk through some flashlight forums and see if it's just us (those hardcore flashlight guys are just as nuts)

On a side note...another reason I was doing this testing was to see just how effective the Di-oxit Gold is...my recommendations...spend the $10 and pick up a tube, that little tube will last us forever and it works very well at cleaning (it literally dissolves the oxidization) and after vaping all day on just a stock Grand, I slid a tissue across the contact and it came out nice and clean (save for the yellowish smear of Di-oxit)...now that Rob has moved over to the big-boy S/O contacts (with some surface area) he should really offer this stuff on his site...in fact, it may be worth starting a thread over...

So I had to edit my last post.

I thought ehhh, I better be 100% certain before I go spouting my mouth off; and I should have actually checked this more closely before I even posted. That was bad form.

So I took out a jewelers loupe (40X) and started going over all my batteries (vtc's).

I see it!! not a lot of carbon but I see tiny tiny pits, all over; like maybe two or three tenths (of a thousandths). I just never noticed it because the pattern was random due to being used in multiple devices.

Now is it as bad as the new vtc5's I've been running on my Reo, no. BUT, after doing some due diligence (considering back EMF, etc) and looking closely at my terminals (maybe I'm starting the see the whole picture..) it seems like all mech mods acr. They must right, how can they not especially at sub-one-ohm.

Thanks for the info Quigsworth. I'll bet that if I milled a slot or viewing window into my mech or any other, I'd most certainly expect to see some acring.

It's just a matter of how much carbon and pitting is acceptable. It's a qualitative thing not quantitative (at least for now).

Unfortunately I don't have any other high drain 18650's besides the vtc's that I'v used for extended periods. And that should also be pointed out, that these finding are specific to the vtc!

To sum things up I think the acring is actually not what I care about; it's the pitting and carbon. I'd have to guess that there're a couple different contributors but, the sony terminal may in fact be the major contributor.

 

[MattyB1503]

I'm going to take a walk through some flashlight forums and see if it's just us (those hardcore flashlight guys are just as nuts)

Tell me about it.. some of those guys are intense! Heard rumors of flashlight rigs surpassing the cost of even a silver vela..

 

[Dconnor]

Rumor is the EFest 35A 2500mAh are rebadged LG HE2

I got red Efest 1600mah.

 

[Quigsworth]

...To sum things up I think the acring is actually not what I care about; it's the pitting and carbon. I'd have to guess that there're a couple different contributors but, the sony terminal may in fact be the major contributor.

You nutshelled it...arcing doesn't have the voodoo with me as it does with some peeps, (hell, it paid the bills for years ), you just have to accept it as a cost of doing business and you move on to the care and maintenance of your contacts. But if the terminal surface of the Sony's is what you say (I don't have decent magnifier atm) then that just got tougher...I'd be curious if what Dconner's salesmen stated holds water...that the flat top terminals where some cheap "afterthought" on Sony's part?

Now to figure out how to lap the surface of the Sony's pos. terminal

btw...Greatest...sounds like you're up for a bit of fabricating...if you check out you local electronics store (not a Ratshack) but a more commercial type...got to their relay rack...I picked up a couple 2 pole relays rated at 30A dc for $5/ea...here's a pic of the 3 pole version...



look at all that beryllium/silver contactitty goodness just begging to be cut out and used properly

 

[Quigsworth]

...I thought about this as well but increased inventory, funds away from current projects and the fact that it seems that most people who are truly concerned with the arcing and oxidation are those of us who are dropping well below .50Ω on a daily basis and if you are vaping at that low of resistance you should be willing to invest your own funds to procure the DeoxIT Gold or comparable electrical contact solution.

Well put...

 

[Bimini Twist]

FWIW, my nipple-top Panasonic NCR18650PDs do the same thing and I've only run 0.45Ω and 0.68Ω atties on it. In fact, it can get so bad that it will not fire without rotating the battery. Fortunately, that is a very easy thing to do with the REO, but it really gets frustrating when it's bad enough not to get the full life ( >= 3.7V) out of the battery. I was keeping a piece of 1500 grit in the REO, but it takes too long, so I replaced it with 800. 800 is a bit rough, though.

It seems to last longer for me using DeOxit Cleaner (red) followed by DeOxit Shield than with with DeOxit Gold.

At first, I thought it might have something to do with the extreme humidity around here, but now that I see it mentioned on two threads, I doubt that. Besides, it doesn't happen to my VTC4s on my OliveR - and it's seen action with a 0.28Ω coil.

I have a couple more of these batts that have only been used in a regulated mod. Maybe I'll try them in a Gus Lord with a .6Ω coil to see if it happens there. I really like that mod in 18490 configuration, but . . .

I was just about to get some more Sonys to take this REO down to lower ohms, but now I'm not so sure. Has anybody who has experienced this on brand X been able to find brand Y batteries that don't have this problem? Preferably in the 30+ Amp range.

(This is all assuming battery terminal material might be the cause.)

 

[GreatestUnKnown]

FWIW, my nipple-top Panasonic NCR18650PDs do the same thing and I've only run 0.45Ω and 0.68Ω atties on it. In fact, it can get so bad that it will not fire without rotating the battery. Fortunately, that is a very easy thing to do with the REO, but it really gets frustrating when it's bad enough not to get the full life ( >= 3.7V) out of the battery. I was keeping a piece of 1500 grit in the REO, but it takes too long, so I replaced it with 800. 800 is a bit rough, though.

It seems to last longer for me using DeOxit Cleaner (red) followed by DeOxit Shield than with with DeOxit Gold.

At first, I thought it might have something to do with the extreme humidity around here, but now that I see it mentioned on two threads, I doubt that. Besides, it doesn't happen to my VTC4s on my OliveR - and it's seen action with a 0.28Ω coil.

I have a couple more of these batts that have only been used in a regulated mod. Maybe I'll try them in a Gus Lord with a .6Ω coil to see if it happens there. I really like that mod in 18490 configuration, but . . .

I was just about to get some more Sonys to take this REO down to lower ohms, but now I'm not so sure. Has anybody who has experienced this on brand X been able to find brand Y batteries that don't have this problem? Preferably in the 30+ Amp range.

(This is all assuming battery terminal material might be the cause.)

SOs (Sub-Ohmers ) I have a couple other projects in front of addressing this issue right now but I believe it has to do with the fact that the mechanical switch function in our REOs having a smaller foot print than a traditional tube mechanicals. Ideally you would simply want to increase the firing pin contact surface but the switch function in turn also adds to the severity of the arcing, so that was why I was so interested in quigsworth's paired contact function (pic below) where we have stationary battery connections but somehow still implement the pushbutton style mechanical function.

I should be able to come back to creating a solution in the next couple weeks but for those who want to play around on their own ,my idea so far contains contacts from the Keystone 18650 battery tray 1042P, using a collared spring on the external side of the REO button joined with a button cover and attaching the gold plated BeCu firing pin to the bottom of the button but altering the contact pad to be physically wider while also having a more obtuse angle to the end making the electrical connection...

While also researching solutions I came across bapgoods modification of gdeals REO by using a tactile switch paired with PPTC fuses and a P-FET... its a great solution but I am trying to stay a little "truer" to the REOs mechanical nature. It is also not as plug and play as most REOnauts are willing to be comfortable with. The best part about the REO is the simple teardown function for a through cleaning and maintenance...can you tell I am a Marine yet?

So for all you Barney style window lickers clean your contacts and use an anti-oxidant compund!!