Is Big Tobacco really an issue?

[ShowMeTwice]

Truth be told, the only reason BT got into the business of manufacturing/selling vape gear is........

MONEY

They saw how popular vaping was/is and immediately formulated plans to destroy the upstart vape industry. BT did this all while knowing they could cash-in on the vape market for themselves........... that's monopolization. Surely, no one would have the audacity to say that's capitalism.

It's truly naive, ignorant and outright silly to call BT an ally.

BT was never going to allow anyone to encroach upon their long-held "sacred" territory.

BT saw the vaping threat for what it meant to their bottom line, loss-of-profit. Then they elicited the help of governments all around the world to insure the demise of what was once a thriving vape industry. Misinformation campaigns followed.


that's some ally, huh............

 

[dog man]

Never said Tobacco was a friend. What I claim is they are in the same fight we are. To survive their e-cig investments.
I'll say it again... Are their tactics, ours? No but their intent is preserving profits,,E-cigs is a large portion of that.
Thus an ally.
Do I like their past or even present actions? No!
Do I appreciate their power in fighting for our cause (being invested) ? Somewhat!

 

[zoiDman]

Truth be told, the only reason BT got into the business of manufacturing/selling vape gear is........

MONEY

They saw how popular vaping was/is and immediately formulated plans to destroy the upstart vape industry. BT did this all while knowing they could cash-in on the vape market for themselves........... that's monopolization. Surely, no one would have the audacity to say that's capitalism.

It's truly naive, ignorant and outright silly to call BT an ally.

BT was never going to allow anyone to encroach upon their long-held "sacred" territory.

BT saw the vaping threat for what it meant to their bottom line, loss-of-profit. Then they elicited the help of governments all around the world to insure the demise of what was once a thriving vape industry. Misinformation campaigns followed.


that's some ally, huh............

Agreed...

I think sometimes a Trap that some can fall into is thinking about the FDA as a Static Entity.

I know you have seen this, because You and I have discussed it in threads before. Look at the timeline of BT's e-Cigarette game plan given who is currently the HHS Secretary. And who is likely to be steering things in the future.

BT is Famous for the Long Game. A game that can span Many possible leadership changes.

Who will be in the WH in 2025? Can the HHS be turned on this whole Menthol "proposed" Ban If enough cards are played in the media? Can the Start of a Rule making process in 2024 be suppressed in 2025 or 2026. What leverage would be needed? Can we back Disposables long enough to basically turn the entire market that way? Then do a 180 using Puppet Environment voices to ban them leaving the e-Cigarette market crippled.

BT is constantly thinking 3 or 4 moves down the road.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

near 30 years since the inception of the e-cig.

So there were ecigs on the market in 1994? That's news to me. That's around 5 years after I started smoking and never saw and ecig til around 2008 or so.

I remember in the 80s there were fake cigs that came in a pack of 2. I think they had nicotine on the "filter" end or something, but they weren't electronic. They sold them at the drug store on a counter-top display.

 

[zoiDman]

...
I'll say it again... Are their tactics, ours? No but their intent is preserving profits,,E-cigs is a large portion of that.
Thus an ally.

But isn't that kinda a One-Dimensional way of thinking?

Say the Entire e-Cigarette market is gone on Monday. Dick Durbin waves his Magic Wand and Poof, its all GONE in a Blinding Flash of Light.

What would BT do? Besides call everyone in on Overtime and get ready for the Tsunami of cigarette orders that is to come. And buy More Dump Trucks to haul profits to the bank.

BT Wins when there are No e-Cigarettes.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

near 30 years since the inception of the e-cig.

I saw his post before he edited it. He originally had it at "20 years".

 

[WorksForMe]

BT Wins when there are No e-Cigarettes.

They're never gonna win another penny from me,

.

 

[zoiDman]

I saw his post before he edited it. He originally had it at "20 years".

That's why I included that bit about what I started with.

All those 2 piece Atty's / Carts like the RN4081 I quit with pre-date Cartos by years.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Thus an ally.

sure, okay..........

Those are all Big Tobacco advertisements, claiming benefits of their products, stating they are basically harmless.

They truly were an ally of the people. To be trusted then and now.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

So there were ecigs on the market in 1994? That's news to me. That's around 5 years after I started smoking and never saw and ecig til around 2008 or so.

I remember in the 80s there were fake cigs that came in a pack of 2. I think they had nicotine on the "filter" end or something, but they weren't electronic. They sold them at the drug store on a counter-top display.

I see back in 1979 into the 80s there was some sort of inhaler that looked like a cigarette. Not electronic. That must be what I saw back in the 80s. That's when the word "vaping" was actually first used. Interesting.

 

[dog man]

I guess this won't be resolved here and i didn't expect it to be.
My point is to know who has our backs and it's those invested in the Industry...
(Tobacco has $$'s in the game)
Are their reasons our reasons? Not by a long shot!
Are they moral and principled? Nope!
BUT...
Are they at war with Big Gov't oppression? Yup.
Big Pharma and their gums and patches? Yup!
Do they fight the FDA and ALA? Always have!
Do they fight Local/State smoking bans which have effected even vaping? Yup!
Do they fight vaping? Somewhat but it also cuts their bottom line since they are vested in it.
And I could go on.

Theres a unholy alliance wether we like it or not.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

congratulations, you’ve proved the new normal… where “some” in this country have chosen to live in a bizarrely distorted alternate reality where…

1+1=3

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Are they at war with Big Gov't oppression? Yup.

“at war with government oppression” seriously?

Imbecilic statements like that might ring true for the goofy red hat insurrectionist clowns who stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021.

You have completely failed to grasp the fact that BT isn’t “at war” with the government.

They are in bed with the government - fully bought and paid for.

This thread greatly amuses me.

ETA: I suggest you learn what oppression is before making such idiotic claims.

 

[dog man]

Show...
So you think Gov't Regs haven't effected Tobacco?
Lawsuits for $$Mills haven't effected them?
Being kicked out of all Publlc Locations (with them following suit on Vap?)

Who's distorting things?

 

[zoiDman]

I guess this won't be resolved here and i didn't expect it to be.
My point is to know who has our backs and it's those invested in the Industry...
(Tobacco has $$'s in the game)
Are their reasons our reasons? Not by a long shot!
Are they moral and principled? Nope!
BUT...
Are they at war with Big Gov't oppression? Yup.
Big Pharma and their gums and patches? Yup!
Do they fight the FDA and ALA? Always have!
Do they fight Local/State smoking bans which have effected even vaping? Yup!
Do they fight vaping? Somewhat but it also cuts their bottom line since they are vested in it.
And I could go on.

Theres a unholy alliance wether we like it or not.

I think You are Too Emotionally Invested in things which is Clouding your ability to Think Objectively.

I also think that perhaps you have used an e-Cigarette since the carto days, Your level of Experience with e-Cigarette Regulations, Laws and Circumstance and how BT fits into them is Limited. Restricted perhaps to only Like Minded individuals in Your Immediate circle.

The main thing that I think would Help You understand BT's motivation in all this is to Stop Thinking about what is going on Today. But Instead Think about what is going on Today and How will it Effect the Future.

You keep talk'n about how BT is somehow our Ally because they have Skin in the Game. But if Sales in the market are going to be Split between Regular Cigarettes and e-Cigarettes, and BT Controls BOTH (which they do), what does BT care if e-Cigarette is just a shadow of what it was?

BT right now in in the Assist State Governments in Enforcement phase. Because they hold basically all the PMTA's. And BT doesn't want an Entrenched Black Market which is kinda Sideways of where we are headed.

BT would Really Like to Stamp Out ALL of these Riff Raff Non-PMTAed e-Cigarette products that are currently left. But they have to Walk a Fine line because the current WH is struggling for anything to help their Lackluster poll numbers. And pointing out how the FDA is only doing token enforcement so they Don't Tick Off younger voters isn't the ticket.

BT can also shed some of it's "Cloven Foot" image of the past with some in Government by putting up some Window Dressing resistance to "Flavor Bans". But everyone knows that the Selling Flavored e-Liquids Boat Sailed Years Ago.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

So you think Gov't Regs haven't effected Tobacco?

No, factually they have not. As I previously stated, BT is in bed with the government. BT has federal and state governments by the "balls". And by design.

You have chosen to turn a blind eye on reality and facts. Truth be told, you are merely doing yourself a huge disservice with this continued regurgitated nonsense that BT is somehow an ally of the vaping community. Most critical thinkers know better.

I prefer dealing with known facts......... not "opinions". Opinions drawn from non-factual BS are, in no way shape or form, facts.

"A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven to be true or false through objective evidence."

To date, you have completely failed to provide any verifiable objective evidence to support your opinions.

---

"The history of the US Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) regulation of tobacco products is fraught with failures."

The above comes from here..........

Success from failure: US federal commercial tobacco regulation | Tobacco Control

Furthermore, per the Tobacco MSA (Master Settlement Agreement)............

"States were to receive over $206 billion over 25 years: Up-front payments – $12.742 billion. Annual Payments, beginning April 15, 2000 – $183.177 billion estimated through 2025. 9 billion per year from 2018 into perpetuity."

Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So, you should very easily be able to conclude from the above two sources (of fact) that there are no real regulations, AND, that the states are desirous, and highly dependent upon the continuation of TMSA funds. In other words, there is shared complicity between BT, the states and the federal government.

---

If you have "actual" data/facts that might disprove the above, or show that BT has been "affected" by some unknown government regulations, please post links that support your "opinion".

But please, spare me any more of your "opinions". Those go straight into the proverbial bit bucket.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Lawsuits for $$Mills haven't effected them?

Please elaborate.

 

[dog man]

Ok, Let tobacco back out and see how long our vape industries last,
Lets see how long before we are regulated out of existence,
What $$'s does the Vape Industrial complex have ...vs...Tobacco (who is vested in it)

As said... Gov't has been trying now for some 20 years to eradicate us in tandem with Pharma and FDA. If Tobacco is gone, I suspect we are right behind them.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

 

[ShowMeTwice]

“the sky is falling, the sky is falling”