Is Diacetyl Really That Bad?

[Quin]

Hey fellow vapers.
As usual, I had a question.

I've been reading up on Diacetyl... and while I understand that this chemical can be harmful, I was wondering if it really is as dangerous as people act like it is (which at times, seems like the mass hysteria of witch-hunting).

First of all, most of us were once cigarette smokers (myself included), and doesn't cigarette smoke contain diacetyl?
I know some of us are essentially riding the health-nut train to flavorless ejuice-ville (excuse my bad humor - and yes, I know some people like unflavored)... trying to remove as many chemicals and toxins from our consumption as possible... but...
how much diacetyl is there in an average custard-type flavored ejuice (apparently this can range from 0.00005 - 1.6 (based on what FA has)), and how much in comparison to what we were receiving through cigarette smoke (does anyone even have an estimate? I'm not sure).

Some posts have sincerely made me reconsider using Koolada juices inside, where others might be exposed to it...

but what harm is there in using juices containing Koolada or diacetyl away from others - especially in consideration of how much diacetyl (or other incredibly harmful chemicals) is in cigarette smoke?

Now, I understand that burning and vaporizing are two completely different things, and people have argued that because of the burning of cigarettes, the diacetyl is in some way different...
but if I really enjoy Strawberry Cheesecake juice, should I really be steering clear of it because of some associated risks? Especially if they're lesser than cigarettes? (And then give up microwaved popcorn while I'm at it?)


I suppose, for the most part, the jury is probably out about this one.

But of these two substances, even if used together (which I don't imagine I would do for any good reason) - is it really anymore risk to me (provided I vape these juices outside) than the cigarette smoke I was once inhaling (especially if I'm only having some custard-type flavored juice every-so-often - and not using it as my everyday vape)?

 

[Jeska]

With the plethora of wonderful flavors available, I personally feel that it's not worth the risk. However, in the end it's your decision. Once in a while is better than all of the time, but it's no comparison to not taking the risk at all.

Happy vaping!

 

[Katmar]

It's ultimately up to you what you vape. For me, I'll stick to the safer stuff. I quit smoking to get away from the harmful chemicals.

 

[Quin]

So, here's my thinking... in general.

Flavoring additive puts professional cooks at risk - seattlepi.com
Here is a website stating the amount of diacetyl in cooking products, cooking sprays with butter flavoring in them are as high as 1,125ppm, far above the amount that is usually in more custard-type flavorings in vape.

There is one case of someone getting sick from using Pam Buttery Spray, and about three cases of people getting sick from making 2-3+ bags of microwave popcorn EVERYDAY for 10-15 YEARS!


Most venders have taken diacetyl completely out of their products, but some continue to use derivatives or precursors (like Acetoin or Acetylpropionyl (or ketones)) which contain trace amounts of diacetyl or can be metabolized into diacetyl.
Since diacetyl is considered safe for consumption (but not inhalation), does that mean that provided it only turns into diacetyl after being introduced into the blood-system, it would be relatively safe (SPECULATION HERE).

Furthermore, there's articles like this:
Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione exposures ...... [Crit Rev Toxicol. 2014] - PubMed - NCBI (This article is about diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione in cigarette smoke --- again, the burning may have some effect to change the diacetyl, but I think the jury's out for the most part)
(Here is the Reddit page discussing said article: http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_...iacetyl_andor_23pentanedione_may_not_be_risk/)

And here is a Reddit discussing diacetyl in vape, and what amounts ppm is released in vape (http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_...7x/lots_of_new_vape_companies_are_apparently/)


There is lots of information in the forum (and other places) about the harms (like: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...acetyl-propionyl-acetoin-flavorings-data.html)... but I would overload this post by linking all of the threads and articles on the internet that I have found.


Obviously this stuff has caused some pretty serious lung damage, but in HIGH quantities and with regular exposures.
Cooks have been using the stuff for a looooong time, but there is some information to suggest that cooks have been getting sick from it. But they are also sitting over grills greased with the stuff for 6-8 hours, 5 (or more) days a week.

Surely this is not particularly comparable to the amount a vaper is using - especially considering the need for flavor rotation (for those of us who experience flavor fatigue (just has my first run in with it, honestly)).


Furthermore: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-may-contain-diacetyl-there-really-many.html
If this chart is correct, the SAFEST thing to do would be to literally switch to UNFLAVORED juice, as A LOT of flavorings have the potential to have diacetyl and it's precursors.


I use PA for my flavorings, and they have things clearly labeled, so I'm not really worried about this stuff being in my (current) juice, but this stuff could be in my strawberry, apparently.

With all this fear-mongering about diacetyl, it seems anyone concerned about it would have a better time either switching to unflavored juice, or at least respecting that a small amount of the stuff likely isn't all that harmful (about 70ppm or less is supposed to be relatively safe).


I certainly am not going to give up my flavorings for something that occurred in cigarettes and is in smaller ("trace") amounts in my juice.



Obviously, whether you use it or not is completely personal. A lot of us are trying to be as safe and healthy as possible. I, myself, am not particularly one that's reaching for the "most safe" vape. My interest in vape is that it is harm reduction, especially that it is less harmful for me to vape than for me to smoke when it comes to the people around me (thus the discussion of using these juices outside, just in case) - that I am consuming less harmful stuff, rather than no harmful stuff - especially considering living in our current society, which presents quite a bit of toxic risks from just walking down the street, or standing over a grill cooking.

My point is mostly... does this really present any more risk to me than cooking with buttery spray, or making microwave popcorn?
Or is the risk pretty negligible considering that it is likely less dangerous than butter-flavored cooking spray?

There seems to be both sides of the argument on this, and I generally think somewhere in the middle is the truth.
So, it clearly can be harmful, but the question for me is not whether it is or not, but how much, how harmful is it really - especially in comparison to the other diacetyl risks (note, this stuff is actually a completely natural (yes, natural does not mean safe) emission in the process of fermentation - so it is also present in beer and cheese (to my understanding, in beer, people attempt to filter it out - but point still stands))?



Either way,
take care and vape on!

 

[supertrunker]

I think it's every man for himself! Most of the food flavours used in eliquids were never tested for inhalation, but only digestion.

I'm rather swayed by the simple fact that with vaping i went from 4000 chemicals to 4, and so i'd like to think that since a couple of those are rather innocuous i'd reduced my cancer risk a little. But i may be wrong!

If you used vaping to quit smoking tobacco and are worried about the dangers of it, then it'd be logical to stop vaping too. And breathe only fresh alpine air.

My opinion is that most people are bad at analysing risk. Nobody died from vaping a custard and the same people that worry about dying in plane crashes, shark attacks, gunfights and so on will likely die of heart attacks and cancer like everyone else.

T

 

[Racehorse]

The best posts I've read on inhalation risks are in the DIY section of the forum, lots of knowledgeable folks there......many of them "seem" to know more than some of the eliquid vendors.

 

[Quin]

supertrunker - That is kinda how I view the risks. I "converted" from smoking to vaping. I am trying to assess the risks to myself and those around me (cigarette smoke runs a risk that nicotine/alkaloids+tar = out to a pretty nasty combination that makes everyone around at me at a pretty serious risk because of cigarette smoke --- but vape contains way less contaminates/toxins, and without the tar, doesn't stick to clothing and walls the same way cigarette smoke does). I want to put people around me to the least risk with the most "pleasurable" experience possible! ((But safe for consumption IS NOT safe for inhalation --- IN ANY WAY))

(Racehorse - I will look it up, thanks for the suggestion!)


This is why I, early into my (second) vape experience, switched to WTA juice. I found WTA juice to be WAY more satisfying, and I have experienced almost (or none) withdrawal symptoms. I have a little lethargy, some chest pains while chain-vaping, and very minor headaches, but I have several issues that cause ALL of the above (so I'm not sure which they came from - but docs have suggested I quit smoking - as cigarette smoke is very bad for anyone).

I believe full-heatedly in the idea of us getting off of combustibles - like smoking cigarettes - but I'm not completely ready to dump the entire chemical load that I had in cigarettes (frankly, in a week, I have dropped smoking cigarettes completely, with the aid of WTA juice, but knowing I was a smoker for well over 13 years, it's kinda hard to fear these chemicals.....).


I sincerely want to try some flavorings with diacetyl precursors - namely cheesecake, and I feel like.... if I'm consuming less than I would in cigarette smoke, I'm still doing better than I was (but I still wouldn't use these inside, or around people.... it's mostly a curiosity, something I'd taste once every few months, and thusly, comparatively to microwave popcorn or butter-flavored spray, would not be a serious issue.). Also, I sometimes feel that it's important to slowly change the routine, one reason I continue to vape outside --- it's routine, and it helps me to kick the habit while having the routine behind the habit.
If my consumption is of precursors (which likely contain only trace amounts of diacetyl or only larger amounts if heated far higher than my hardware (using EVOD and Aerotank, both using 2.2ohm coils with 3.2-.3.0 voltage, would it even pose a serious risk - and furthermore, considering above research, would it hurt anyone besides me? --- my risk to myself is much less a concern to me than the risk to others, especially since I (1) was concerned about the risk to others and continue to vape outside and (2) it shouldn't stick to me like cigarette smoke which is contained in the tar), how harmful really is it to ANYONE?

I have not smoked a cigarette in over 1 week. I know it's not a large amount of time, but both WTA and DIY had been a major reason for me switching --- customizing my juice has given me a little extra boost (in fun factor) to quitting cigarettes.
I tried for years. I tried lozenges, patches, and more basic e-cigs (like anolog look-alikes, and really any basic nicotine juice), ect... but nothing could get me off the analogues.

FINALLY, I tried WTA juice, and I have no desire for cigarettes.... and I know this stuff is WAY better. I honestly feel bad exposing people to toxins in my clothing... and vaping has been a god-send!
But I would like to continue the enjoyment of exploration, and sincerely, if it doesn't "stick" to me like cigarette smoke, and I enjoy it.... I don't want to cut myself short. I am not so much concerned about my health (at least provided I am not at serious risk for "popcorn lung", which I am sincerely pretty assured [against] since I am consuming smaller amounts than cigarette smoke (likely)).

At this point.... all I care about is shifting my behavior --- getting off of analogues and using something safer. I know that all flavorings are not promised to be safe (unflavored is essentially.... pretty much completely safe, considering nicotine (and WTA) exposure, which is likely not harmful)), but I don't want to hurt anyone else..... but I also would likely to have more flavorings to add to my flavor rotation, and to continue this as a preciously positive and desirable experience.


Provided I add no risk to others (as I did with cigarette smoke), I have no concern about ANY flavorings, but I would like to be sure that the second-hand exposure is extremely (and negligibly) low, and that it causes no health-risks to anyone around me.

My body is my own, but there is no reason why I should expose others to this.

(Please note: I understand there's not enough research in the field of vape, but I am hopeful, and I would like to see either that the risks second-hand are negligible, or see them regulated to such values. As a person who still likes to use e-cigs outside, cus.... well... it's pretty nice to vape by the trees....... I hope we find that the added substances are not harmful (I think we can mostly agree that the risk from nicotine and VG or PG is pretty minimal - the bases both being used in inhalers, and nicotine being pretty minor in harm provided it's not combusted) ---- but flavoring, to me, seems to be the "iffy" part of vaping..... we don't know if these flavors are safe or not, but everything else, besides flavorings..... seems to be relatively safe...... just flavorings require far more research to prove safety)

 

[Kurt]

I am a co-author on the Farsalinos paper.

It is largely a myth that we are vaping only 4 chemicals. Most flavorings are dozens of flavor compounds, many of which are not tested for inhalation safety, especially in the context of vaping. The majority of flavor compounds appear to be benign, however. At least they appear that way now, but there is little in the way of toxicological studies with vaping.

We only tested for the presence and concentrations of DA and AP. We did not evaluate if these were toxic levels, but concentrations in the vapor phase were in some cases higher than the upper limits allowed for flavor workers by NIOSH. See this thread for more:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/517858-donate-dr-farsalinos-new-study.html

 

[JayQC]

I'm rather swayed by the simple fact that with vaping i went from 4000 chemicals to 4

That is simply not true, but it sounds really good.

A single flavoring agent is made up of hundreds, if not thousands of chemicals. Most flavors are made up of several agents mixed together.

4 "ingredients" does not equal "4 chemicals"

There is already enough bollocks circulating about vaping, don't contribute to their infectious spreading.

 

[ronchinoy]

Unless its a 100% natural flavor do you have any idea how many chemicals are there in your flavors.

If people are bothered about healthy vaping. They should stick to vaping pure VG + Nic.

I found 90% of my medical issues vanished when I did the above.

Im still trying to figure out why anybody would use PG for just about anything.

 

[zoiDman]

Is Diacetyl Really That Bad?

I Dunno?

How Many PPM of Diacetyl is a Person Ingesting and on What Frequency?

A person who Uses a One Drop of a Flavoring that contains Diacetyl in a 30ml Mix and then Vapes 2ml/day with a Carto on a Cigalike seems to be receiving a Vastly Different Dosage than a 15ml/day @ 20% Flavoring Sub-Ohm Cloud Chaser hitting at 25 Watts.

Hard to make Blanket Assessments about whether something is "Safe" or Not when there is a Vast Range of Dosage and Frequency seen.

And of Course, One would have to Define what is meant be "Safe" before they did Anything.

 

[Quin]

I absolutely agree with everything everyone is saying.

Even [now] making my own juice, especially with WTA juice.... but even if I were using nicotine-only juice... the chemical load isn't just 4.

Nicotine, VG/PG, Flavoring. Sounds great that you think it's just 3, maybe four (natural & artificial flavoring - or a mix of PG & VG).
But it's not that simple... it's never that simple - especially with flavorings. Flavorings contain several different ingredients to get the flavoring the person is going for.

It may say 4 flavorings on the bottle, but that's not it.

But, considering this, and our knowledge of flavorings... I can't really concern myself about a flavor known to be bad when I have no idea how bad/good other flavors may be?

For me, it's about quitting smoking. Flavors be damned! But I smoked for many years and I never worried about all the chemical compounds in my cigarettes....
and I kinda feel like, therefor..... I might as well enjoy a vape every now and again that has a chemical known to be bad.

After all, I used to be taking in battery acid, rocket fuel, rat poison..... and after all, I may or may not take in several toxins in the case of medication.

If I'm not having a problems with the flavoring, and I don't use it all the time (knowing it's known to be unsafe), I might as well just relax and enjoy my vape.

 

[Derek_66]

Nicotine, VG/PG, Flavoring. Sounds great that you think it's just 3, maybe four (natural & artificial flavoring - or a mix of PG & VG).
But it's not that simple... it's never that simple - especially with flavorings. Flavorings contain several different ingredients to get the flavoring the person is going for.

It may say 4 flavorings on the bottle, but that's not it.

I think that's always the case. The composition of flavours seems fairly complex.

The label on my juice bottle lists the following ingredients:

Propylene Glycol
Glycerol
Pure Water
Methyfurfural
Trimethylpyrazine
Tetramethylpyrazine
Dimethylpyrazine
Acetylpyrazine
Methyl Butyric Acid
A-Terpineol
Megastigmatrienone
Nicotine
Natural Flavours

I'm guessing they're in decreasing volume order, like it is on food packaging.

I don't really like to vape sweet flavours, so it's not much of a sacrifice for me to avoid the juices that contain diacetyl or acetyl propionyl. According to Kurt and Dr Farsalinos, acetoin can take their place and is not known to be harmful for inhalation.

 

[NymeriaSand]

I've been reading about the diacetyl worries and I'm prepared to accept there is a risk there and that it highlights that there are unknowns about vaping, such is life IMO. I mainly go for fruit or tobacco flavours but have read it's been detected in strawberry flavours and I use a caramel tobacco that probably contains it.

I would like it if diacetyl and its substitutes could be completely removed but have come to believe that it's almost impossible to get certain flavours without it, I don't know the truth in this as I'm no chemist.

I currently choose to accept this risk, the same as I accepted the risks of smoking tobacco and the same as I accept the risk of drinking diet cola that contains aspartame (an even more worrying chemical IMO). Why do I accept these risks, I have an addictive personality that minimises risks that surround my addictive behaviour.

I don't believe anyone can say that vaping diacetyl is 100% safe, nor can they say it's 100% unsafe because we just don't know. Vape it and accept the possible risk, or vape unflavoured/flavours that definitely don't contain it - them's the choices it seems [emoji4]

 

[salemgold]

Unless its a 100% natural flavor do you have any idea how many chemicals are there in your flavors.

If people are bothered about healthy vaping. They should stick to vaping pure VG + Nic.

I found 90% of my medical issues vanished when I did the above.

Im still trying to figure out why anybody would use PG for just about anything.

Why would you think that natural flavors are better than synthetic for inhalation?

Natural Vs. Artificial Flavors

Artificial flavorings are simpler in composition and potentially safer because only safety-tested components are utilized.

 

[Leaded50]

I was a little chocke when seeing this on the net...they could measure diacetyl in the air iover a vineglass, apptox. in headhight.....

NIOSH and ACGIH have recently proposed or adopted short-term (25 ppb and 20 ppb, respectively) and 8-hour time-weighted-average (5 ppb and 10 ppb, respectively) occupational exposure limits for diacetyl. These limits are likely to be more stringent than the naturally occurring diacetyl levels associated with many consumer products. For example, we recently measured 17 ppb diacetyl in the headspace of a glass of red wine and approximately 11 ppb in secondhand cigarette smoke. We also estimated that the diacetyl concentration in main-stream cigarette smoke can exceed 200 ppm. The proposed limits are based on the NIOSH and ACGIH interpretation of respiratory responses reported in occupationally exposed popcorn and flavor manufacturing workers. However, our findings indicate that the worker studies were significantly confounded by non-occupational diacetyl exposure from cigarette smoke. For example, in Lockey et al. (2009), a study on popcorn workers that is considered by many to be the most robust analysis of the occupational diacetyl exposure-response relationship conducted to date, the mean smoking-related diacetyl exposure among current and former smokers likely exceeded the mean work-related exposure by close to one order of magnitude even at the high end of the work-related exposure spectrum. We therefore suggest that exposure to cigarette smoke (main-stream and secondhand) is likely to have been a significant, and unaccounted for, non-occupational source of diacetyl exposure in all of the existing worker studies. Fortunately, numerous animal inhalation studies with diacetyl (which do not suffer from confounding effects of cigarette smoke and co-exposure to other workplace chemicals) have been published in the last few years, many of which were conducted by NIOSH, and we believe these studies provide a more valid basis for evaluating respiratory exposure-response and for proposing occupational limits for diacetyl. ref: https://sra.zerista.com/event/member/66618

 

[Risquee]

I work in a food plant and for a while we were using diacetyl in some of the food. They did everything just short of building a separate building for it. People anywhere in the area had to wear full hazmat suits and self contained breathing apparatus. They installed new exhaust systems, filters, all sorts of precautions that probably cost them millions of dollars. We ran the food for three months, then it supposedly went to some other plant.(Thailand I believe - you KNOW they didn't have all those safety systems in place.) There was a lot of resistance from workers about the dangers of being exposed to it. Our Health and Safety reps made sure everyone was well educated. For myself, I would make every effort to insure I wasn't vaping it.

 

[roosterado]

I just want to know if its in the E-Liquid I buy---------------- Venders Label Ingredients------------Test Your E Liquids for these Chemicals at an Independent Lab--it will be Law soon enough anyways.

 

[lvm111]

As long as it's gluten free diacetyl , I'm not worried about it.

best regards, larry mac


p.s., I'm not kidding. I have Celiac Disease, and am on a strict medical gluten free diet for life. That's bad enough, so I'm not concerned about all the other nit-picking BS!

 

[roosterado]

Unless its a 100% natural flavor do you have any idea how many chemicals are there in your flavors.

If people are bothered about healthy vaping. They should stick to vaping pure VG + Nic.

I found 90% of my medical issues vanished when I did the above.


Most people have no problems with Vaping PG that means hundreds of thousands maybe millions of people have no side effects from Vaping PG