Is Temperature the Future of Digital Vaping?
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uhh it doesn't i don't know where you got that idea.
1-ethyl-3-methylbenzene is NOT toluene.
methylbenzene is toluene.
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I'll admit that I read the first 40 posts and skipped on to the 5th page here before posting.
I've talked about temperature controlled vaping devices for a couple of years now and expect that to be the future of vaping as long as the cost is in line. After all, what we are trying to achieve is the right atomization point for our juice. We express that in watts, volts, and the efficiency of the design.
The trouble the concept is that you'd have to have a thermistor in the atomizer coil that's embedded in the wicking. That also means another set of wires from the control board to the atomizer. The thermistor needs a constant voltage to produce a consistent reading. It's expensive and needs two more pins to work, meaning a 4 pin connector to the atty. The good part is that you could set the temperature you want and let the mod maintain the vape. The down side is that like any coil it will begin to lose efficiency over time as the coil crusts over and require a higher temperature setting to maintain flavor and vapor (just like a voltage or wattage controlled mod).
Thermistors can be tiny.
I've talked about temperature controlled vaping devices for a couple of years now and expect that to be the future of vaping as long as the cost is in line. After all, what we are trying to achieve is the right atomization point for our juice. We express that in watts, volts, and the efficiency of the design.
The trouble the concept is that you'd have to have a thermistor in the atomizer coil that's embedded in the wicking. That also means another set of wires from the control board to the atomizer. The thermistor needs a constant voltage to produce a consistent reading. It's expensive and needs two more pins to work, meaning a 4 pin connector to the atty. The good part is that you could set the temperature you want and let the mod maintain the vape. The down side is that like any coil it will begin to lose efficiency over time as the coil crusts over and require a higher temperature setting to maintain flavor and vapor (just like a voltage or wattage controlled mod).
Thermistors can be tiny.
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Well I got that idea from you, when you said:
"1-ethyl-3-methylbenzene is a type of methylbenzene better known as Toluene".
You've basically argued as if its the same thing, which it isn't. You're talking about 1-ethyl-3-methylbenzene and then talking about working with toluene and its hazardous. They are two different compounds.
You keep eliding the differences. You've tried to torpedo a piece of research based on a suspicion you have.
the outcome is consistent vapor production not vapor temperature. Coil temperature in relation to the liquids vaporization curve produces the most linear control over vaping possible. Vapor temperature while i guess might be important to some.. doesn't really matter to me at all and i suspect most other people.
I meant the outcome we were discussing on the thread. It was about vapor temperature. And no, coil temperature doesn't provide the most linear control - that was what was discovered in the videos. There isn't continual linear correlation. It reached a point where regardless of coil temperature increase, vapor temperature stayed the same. Which makes sense - it has a vaporisation point and after that extra heat is extraneous.
I'm not overly fussed about having temp control either - but I'm willing to explore an idea and give it a chance.
yes they are different but similar in many ways.
3-Ethyltoluene is the same thing as 1-ethyl-3-methylbenzene.
"1-ethyl-3-methylbenzene is a type of methylbenzene better known as Toluene"
ok so what i should have said is,
1-ethyl-3-methylbenzene is a type of methylbenzene. methylbenzene is better known as Toluene.
is that better?
Kiwivap, would you agree that vaping is not harmless, and that it does come with some risks?
I think the vapor temperature control will be a gadget selling point for the latest design. What we will end up doing is the same thing we always have, crank it up or down to suit our tastes.
The Drexel report is the best document I know of right now for measurements of the chemicals in our vape. Most of the problem with dangerous chemicals in our vapor is the voltage we decide to use. High voltage = high temps = production of acrolein and formaldehyde, among others.
http://publichealth.drexel.edu/~/media/files/publichealth/ms08.pdf
The Drexel report is the best document I know of right now for measurements of the chemicals in our vape. Most of the problem with dangerous chemicals in our vapor is the voltage we decide to use. High voltage = high temps = production of acrolein and formaldehyde, among others.
http://publichealth.drexel.edu/~/media/files/publichealth/ms08.pdf
Thanks Dave - those are the ones that concern people. Although I think the formaldehyde was trace amounts.
And yes, I gathered from RPAD's post that it was being thought through as a gadget design. I can imagine people saying "my caramel apple tastes so good at 25 degrees."
Will have a look at the link. It may be the one I was looking for. I think most of us are into this knowing its better than smoking but not as good as fresh air.
Fresh air (if you are lucky enough to live in it) is definitely the best thing for the lungs. I look at vaping as a relatively harm free activity compared to smoking tobacco. In comparison to never smoking or vaping, that's a much better lifestyle. It's all about reducing harmful activities. So far, I haven't found anything especially alarming in all that I've read about vaping and chemical components.
The Drexel report is about the best thing that's come out recently. It's a searchable PDF, but it's not all that long a read if you just start at the top and scan as you go. There's a list of chemicals detected in the vapor and they are all present at magnitudes lower than EPA standards for clean air. I think the doctor states that being around vapers is no worse than walking down any city street and that downtown may be worse with factory output, car exhausts, and bus fumes. The also analyzed the vapor from ecigs using devices that measure the contents of the vape and exhale output from vapers. I didn't see much in that report that raised any alarm bells.
The report covered a 5 year period in which around 5000 vaping participants were monitored and tested.
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it could be measured thru the resistance of the coil, as wire heats, the resistance increases. One could implement a hi resistance cut off point. Altho some serious software would be needed to determine start point resistance, optimal run resistance, and cut off resistance... but that would entail creating a veryyy accurate ohm meter.
I realize many of you are approaching this temperature debate in a very finite perspective...
In my mind much of the electrical and temperature elements have already been engineered into all of this. But within certain operating range from the original vaporizer functional design.
Both kanthal and nichrome resistance wire has been engineered to produce a specific temperature heating range based on two factors... the length and coiling properties establish the resistance and then the amount of voltage applied to coil will heat it to within a specific range.
I don't know what those ranges are but I'm sure someone had to figure out the basic foundation for all this stuff. The battery choice based on size and charge duration ended up being the current Li-on's with an operating range of 3.2 - 4.2 volts. The coil resistance base appears to be between 1.2 - 2.5 ohms for "most" gear.
I figure somewhere in all that an average temperature range was established and then the chemists figured out that applying a concoction of PG, VG, Nicotine and flavors produced a consistent vapor delivery.
Today with the adding of regulated chips with VV/VW and the tinkering with sub-ohm are stretching the original temperature operating range... may also be causing unforeseen chemical production which could introduce harmful stuff. Maybe knowing the actual temperatures within the coil firing could prove useful not just for better flavor and cloud production but also for better understanding the chemical reactions with an eye on safety...
In my mind much of the electrical and temperature elements have already been engineered into all of this. But within certain operating range from the original vaporizer functional design.
Both kanthal and nichrome resistance wire has been engineered to produce a specific temperature heating range based on two factors... the length and coiling properties establish the resistance and then the amount of voltage applied to coil will heat it to within a specific range.
I don't know what those ranges are but I'm sure someone had to figure out the basic foundation for all this stuff. The battery choice based on size and charge duration ended up being the current Li-on's with an operating range of 3.2 - 4.2 volts. The coil resistance base appears to be between 1.2 - 2.5 ohms for "most" gear.
I figure somewhere in all that an average temperature range was established and then the chemists figured out that applying a concoction of PG, VG, Nicotine and flavors produced a consistent vapor delivery.
Today with the adding of regulated chips with VV/VW and the tinkering with sub-ohm are stretching the original temperature operating range... may also be causing unforeseen chemical production which could introduce harmful stuff. Maybe knowing the actual temperatures within the coil firing could prove useful not just for better flavor and cloud production but also for better understanding the chemical reactions with an eye on safety...
Given that the chemicals are very basic and available in all sorts of mixtures, I rather think the invention was done in the other order -- first the liquid and then the electricals.
I somewhat doubt that sub-ohms produces noxious chemicals. I think that such noxious substances would taste bad -- or at least some of them do. We aren't really capable of doing a lot of analysis on this stuff. We might be able to get a temperature range out, but not a list of chemicals produced. On the other hand I do think you have an interesting point. If we can find that temperature range, then it would point the way for researchers to duplicate and extend our work, and that is probably a worthwhile thing to do.
This part in bold makes me think temp control might extend battery life compared to VV or VW regulation.
Another limiting factor for high temps in the coil is the ability of the wick to absorb and deliver juice to the coil. A wet wick is a heat sink in itself. As long as the wick can continue to maintain saturation, the less likely it will be that the coil and the juice can attain the 500 degree or so temps needed to produce the bad chemicals. All that I've heard tells me that you will know when acrolein hits your taste buds.
We all know what burned juice smells and tastes like and avoid it like the plague. I can't imagine anyone actually vaping close to the danger point on purpose. We all like flavorful, rich vapor.
We all know what burned juice smells and tastes like and avoid it like the plague. I can't imagine anyone actually vaping close to the danger point on purpose. We all like flavorful, rich vapor.
You never know. There may very well be a vaper out there somewhere just lobbying away with some vendor, trying to convince them to carry "... Juice". "Tastes just like smelly ... with every hit!"
(Speaking of vaping temps, I'm just trying to lower the heat in this thread a bit with something funny.)
If the wick is dry, you can freeze the coil, and the wick will still be dry. Shut down all voltage, and the wick is still dry. I don't see how reducing the voltage (or the temperature) makes the wick suddenly wick faster.
And you shouldn't be driving a car. For one thing, it puts out emissions that mess up your clean air. For another, a *lot* more people die in auto accidents than you can show have suffered harm from vaping.
You just hate vaping, and are holding vaping to a "must be 100% safe under all circumstances" standard that nothing in the world can match.
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