Is the FDA Really Not the One to Worry About .. ?

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Uma

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The states are probably playing right into their (FDA) hand. That letter of 40 Attorney Generals probably did them more harm than good. THE STATES are so up in arms about PV's, they feel like they have to act, and the Fda is sitting back laughing.

I KNOW its a crazy conspiracy theory, but it is convenient for the Fda to do nothing.
Which was illegal. I bet their collective writing to the FDA was illegal as well. Now we have a new letter begging for eCigs to be included into the MSA, which no doubt is illegal too IMO.
Its in the Compact Clause of the US Constitution.
Guide to the Constitution

"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."


ARTICLE I, SECTION 10, CLAUSE 3

definition of duty of tonnage = a government tax on imports or exports;
 

Uma

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Last night, I saw a segment on the local news about efforts to curtail, ban and regulate the PV market .. it also seems like "Calls to Action" pop up on ECF regularly, much more so in the last few months than in the past ..

So, is the FDA really the one to worry about, or are we really under attack at the State, County and City level .. ??
It started with the FDA.
Here's a new junk science "fact sheet alert" on third hand vaping. Within, you'll read the most important facts that they want the loyal to BP medical field to hear. (How the FDA wasn't allowed to force it into a BP product) Electronic cigarettes and thirdhand tobacco smoke: two emerging health care challenges for the primary care provider
 
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Sundodger

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jwag1973

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I was having a very nice day until I read that link, it's like dealing with the flat earth society.

I agree!

The mis-representation of effectiveness as a quitting aid is enough to discredit the whole article!

It's honestly hard for me to read an entire piece like that!
 

cmknight

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It started with the FDA.
Here's a new junk science "fact sheet alert" on third hand vaping. Within, you'll read the most important facts that they want the loyal to BP medical field to hear. (How the FDA wasn't allowed to force it into a BP product) Electronic cigarettes and thirdhand tobacco smoke: two emerging health care challenges for the primary care provider

"This webpage is not available" ... hmmm
 

Uma

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"This webpage is not available" ... hmmm

I edited and broke the link. See if the link in Sun's post still works.

Dr. Farsalinos guested on a tv show of Q's & a's. The third hand vapor question was raised. He said a person would have to spend all day, as in ALL DAY.with vapor (chain vapor) in order to gather any traces at all, and the traces would be so small it wouldn't even equal a third of a puff's worth. It's a 30ppm while other things around us avg 600ppm... If I remember right. You'll have to watch the video
http://youtu.be/H5KiDYaeTOE

IMO We would breathe more stuff into our lungs on the sidewalk waiting for the lights to turn, or while walking behind someone in an office on carpeting or having people walk by us all day at our desk. (Carpet cleaners, dust, perfumes, body odors, hair products, all the migraine making joys of life when around others).
The article posted above is plumb evil to fear monger about "traces".
 
Jan 19, 2014
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I think the most important thing that we have to worry about is the large number of people employed by, and huge amount of funding dedicated to the Tobacco Control Industry - resources which have now been reallocated to what I can only describe as a war against vaping.

When I point to a lot of people who are paid in whole or in part to encourage smoking cessation, I'm talking about people doing research in universities (and their support staff) as well as research institutions. I'm including state and local health authorities. I'm referencing trade journals and other resources dedicated to the health care industry. And naturally, I'm including ANTZ orgs which get their funding from the MSA settlement, BP, and (the lion's share) from the gov't.

The multi-billion dollar Tobacco Control Industry is now throwing its weight behind the goal of ensuring that vaping is viewed and treated in exactly the same way as tobacco smoking by scientests, governments, the media, health professionals, other parts of the private sector, and the public at large to boot.

Some posters have aptly noted that BT has invested in vaping, that there's more advertising revenue, and therefore that the visibility of vaping has increased - just our numbers have increased. All of this is true. That's "worrying" only insofar as it's the reason why the Tobacco Control industry has decided that vapers and the vaping industry should be their new targets.

I have no idea what the FDA will do, nor do I think it has a "strategy." At most, the FDA can do harm to vapers by coming out with regulations that make it more difficult for the vaping industry. Maybe these regulations (as well as local goverment prohibitions) will be severe enough to create a huge black market in warter-soluable nic. juice, perhaps equpment, and maybe even water-soluable flavors.

None of that will change this fact: if present trends continue, the number of tobacco smokers will be vanishingly small by the end of the decade, if not before.

But there will still be a huge Tobacco Control Industry. And they will still be funded at roughly the same levels, employ approximately the same number of people, and have basically the same status in the eyes of the media, pubilc officials, and the general population.

The only difference is that their goal will be to stamp out vaping.
 
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2coils

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Roger-Lafayette said:But there will still be a huge Tobacco Control Industry. And they will still be funded at roughly the same levels, employ approximately the same number of people, and have basically the same status in the eyes of the media, pubilc officials, and the general population.

The only difference is that their goal will be to stamp out vaping.


Exactly! The only thing I am hoping is that the public sees how ridiculous this is! This is an important job for us pro vapers and family! Articles are already coming out stating this stupidity! Time will tell, though, Tobacco Control Industry, will fight hard,because without this fight, they are pretty insignificant in upcoming years!
 

tonyorion

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This whole wave of anti vaping proposals at the local level has as much to do with the staggering numbers of minors using ecigs as it does with any of the other arguments. I think we will have far more to fear at the local level than at the federal level because it will be so much easier to enact legislation.

If you were to go back one small generational leap, you would find that smoking was pretty much looked down upon by the youth of this country. My daughter who is now 28 does not remember anyone in her high school or even college class smoking-or at least openly admitting that they smoked. It just was not done.

Now, you have kids vaping in class and vaping huge clouds of the most obnoxious juice they can find in very public places.

I do blame the unscrupulous merchants who put ecigs in the hands of minors. A few months ago, I posted a thread about how we vapers were going to get screwed by all of these minors vaping after posting my observations about the youth of the clientele in a B&M. One genius even went so far as to call me a liar. Now, just a few months later, it's out in the open. Lord, there was even a thread on here about seniors in high school vaping in class! Just look at the number of YouTube videos posted by minors, or go to a movie and get fogged out by some disgusting vape as we did when we went to see the latest Thor movie.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that so many more kids are vaping than would have ever smoked. Vaping has proven to be a miracle habit breaker from cigarette addiction which we know is bad for you. Is it really safe over the long term? We just do not know. Deadly nighshade can be found in a variety of plants and vegitables: Potatoes, tomatoes, sweet and hot peppers, eggplant, tomatillos, tamarios, pepinos, pimentos, paprika, and cayenne peppers. There are juices out there like pizza, and who knows how they got it. Who really knows what is in it?

The non vaper has every right not to be exposed to vaping. Some of you will say that you are being exposed to perfume or body odor. Vaping smells better, but only sometimes. Ever try something with Dark Vapur? Unfortunately, you are still a minority.

Now adults see kids running in droves to a new addicition. The moneyed interests don't even have to try very hard to get anti-vaping legislation in place.
 
Jan 19, 2014
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This whole wave of anti vaping proposals at the local level has as much to do with the staggering numbers of minors using ecigs as it does with any of the other arguments. I think we will have far more to fear at the local level than at the federal level because it will be so much easier to enact legislation.

If you were to go back one small generational leap, you would find that smoking was pretty much looked down upon by the youth of this country. My daughter who is now 28 does not remember anyone in her high school or even college class smoking-or at least openly admitting that they smoked. It just was not done.

Now, you have kids vaping in class and vaping huge clouds of the most obnoxious juice they can find in very public places.

I do blame the unscrupulous merchants who put ecigs in the hands of minors. A few months ago, I posted a thread about how we vapers were going to get screwed by all of these minors vaping after posting my observations about the youth of the clientele in a B&M. One genius even went so far as to call me a liar. Now, just a few months later, it's out in the open. Lord, there was even a thread on here about seniors in high school vaping in class! Just look at the number of YouTube videos posted by minors, or go to a movie and get fogged out by some disgusting vape as we did when we went to see the latest Thor movie.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that so many more kids are vaping than would have ever smoked. Vaping has proven to be a miracle habit breaker from cigarette addiction which we know is bad for you. Is it really safe over the long term? We just do not know. Deadly nighshade can be found in a variety of plants and vegitables: Potatoes, tomatoes, sweet and hot peppers, eggplant, tomatillos, tamarios, pepinos, pimentos, paprika, and cayenne peppers. There are juices out there like pizza, and who knows how they got it. Who really knows what is in it?

The non vaper has every right not to be exposed to vaping. Some of you will say that you are being exposed to perfume or body odor. Vaping smells better, but only sometimes. Ever try something with Dark Vapur? Unfortunately, you are still a minority.

Now adults see kids running in droves to a new addicition. The moneyed interests don't even have to try very hard to get anti-vaping legislation in place.

I agree with some of this ... all it takes is a few kids vaping, and the alarm bells go off. In some ways, this reminds me of the movement to ban violent video games. Good grief ... if kids started licking doorknobs as a fad, we'd probably see some folks trying to outlaw them.

I also agree that vaping in public indoor spaces is a bad idea, unless it's done stealthily. Nothing could be worse for vapers than a teenager blowing huge clouds in a movie theater, or a fast food restaurant. Any B&M vape store proprietor who lets minors in their store (let alone sells them anything) isn't thinking very clearly about their own economic interests.

All of that said, there are a few nontrivial points you make that I strongly disagree with:

1) I don't know of anything which is "safe," except drinking sterilized distilled water. This isn't - nor should be - the standard. The ingredients in properly-manufactured e-juice have all been thoroughly vetted, with the exception perhaps of certain flavorings (many of which are already used in chewing gum). Nicotine and PG are already used in FDA-approved medicines (like nicotine or asthma inhalers, both of which are approved for long-term use). VG is just that - it's what fogs up your kitchen when you make pasta sauce. So I don't think we want to tell people that it's not "safe," because the inference is that UNsafe things should be banned.

2) The "early adopter" states like NJ, UT, and ND (plus AR, I think) defined vaping as smoking for purposes of their Indoor Clean Air Acts long before vapers were around in any significant numbers - and long before kids got into it. So there's something else going on there. There's also no rational reason why vaping s/b treated as smoking for purposes of outdoor vaping restrictions. Once again, we're talking about more than public safety or the effect of annoying teenagers. This can only be explained by the fact that the Tobacco Control Industry has sucessfully persuaded policy makers that vaping is indistinguishable from smoking.

3) You're right to say that it's "easier" to enact anti-vaping ordinances at the local level. But why? I think once again, the answer has to be the Tobacco Control Industry. Junk studies and alarmist propaganda lead to the very media stories that encourage politicians to jump on the bandwagon, in order to "protect" society. I could mention the totally-discredited FDA '09 diethelyne glycol and "antifreeze" report - which is still to this day cited in about half the media pieces. Or the more recent Roswell Park Cancer Inst. study on "thirdhand smoke" - which in turn has lead to Banzhaf's suggestion that parents re-open custody proceedings, on the grounds that their estranged spouse is a vaper.

So the reason that it's easier to enact local statutes is that anti-vaping propaganda is everywhere, and it can't be dealt with except by "boots on the ground." The Tobacco Control Industry has 'em - local toxocoligists, MDs, smoking cessation "experts," health dep't officials, and of course rep.s from the classic ANTZ orgs (ALA, ACS, etc.). We can't be at every city or county council hearing. But they can. Their people are paid (often gov't paid- or funded-) professionals who speak with society's impremateur - ours are (at most) vape store owners and local vapers. Who's going to win? (And who cares if vaping is the most effective smoking cessation and tobacco harm reduction strategy ever divised?)

When you add it all up: well-funded junk studies, authoratative pronouncements (even if "fears" and "concerns" are hardly a matter of science), boots on the ground ... we are simply outmatched. So we can try to fight this nonsense in bigger cities and at the state level. But not in hundreds of smaller towns and counties across the country. That's why it's easier for them at the local level: they have vastly more in the way of resources, and are ahead of us by years in terms of laying the propaganda groundwork.

You can't expect to beat a well-paid, well-prepared professional army with a bunch of part-time amateurs.

I'm sorry to say this, but I think the only reasons why vaping isn't outlawed in more places are (1) BT is putting money and resources into the fight (they're our only allies with deep pockets); (2) the whole thing has become absurdly politicized, so many GOP politicians are automatically opposing what they think Dems are for; and (3) our opponents often overreach, and ask for blanket legislation that simply defines vaping as smoking for all purposes in state law (as opposed to accepting simple minor sales bans, or even modest extensions to clean air acts) - thus causing legislative gridlock.
 
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VapieDan

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Last night, I saw a segment on the local news about efforts to curtail, ban and regulate the PV market .. it also seems like "Calls to Action" pop up on ECF regularly, much more so in the last few months than in the past ..

So, is the FDA really the one to worry about, or are we really under attack at the State, County and City level .. ??

Every level of government will jump in on vaping. Many tax dollars to be extorted.
 

Uncle Willie

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1) I don't know of anything which is "safe," except drinking sterilized distilled water. This isn't - nor should be - the standard. The ingredients in properly-manufactured e-juice have all been thoroughly vetted, with the exception perhaps of certain flavorings (many of which are already used in chewing gum). Nicotine and PG are already used in FDA-approved medicines (like nicotine or asthma inhalers, both of which are approved for long-term use). VG is just that - it's what fogs up your kitchen when you make pasta sauce. So I don't think we want to tell people that it's not "safe," because the inference is that UNsafe things should be banned.

The PV has come a long way in the last few years .. yet essentially remains a device that vaporizes a liquid ..

The rub comes in when there is no real information as to what various liquid additives and ingredients morph into once vaporized .. many if not all of the additives currently out there were not made to be vaporized .. add that to carto coils and filler that will burn if not properly used that contain metals and a fiber filler .. which I think is part of what tonyorion is saying ..

Youth will always push the envelope and always have .. in this case, that pushing is likely not a good thing for those of us that are responsible users and gives our opposition just another reason to initiate bans / controls / regulations ..
 
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1) Virtually every single consumer product that we use can be unsafe if misued, or manufactured improperly.

2) Additives that are "GRAS" can be used in chewing gum or hot liquids.

My issue here is that this is a matter of selective attention.

If a child molester uses illegal drugs and tobacco cigarettes (along with a PV) to tempt a kid, what gets in the headline? If an adorable month-old puppy in the UK chews on a PV cartridge and dies, half the outlets in the English-speaking world will pick it up for the next month - regardless of how many cute little doggies kill themselves by chewing on heaven-knows-what every day. If a discarded PV cartridge punctures a tire ... yep, I've seen that story reported too.

Really, it's fine if we go around telling people that vaping is unsafe. As long as we also remind them that everything else in this world is likewise.
 
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