Is the idea of regulation inherently bad?

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Kreegz

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Feb 5, 2013
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Call me canadian. But I trust the dude(s) that I buy my juice from, much the same way I trust my drug dealer isn't selling me extacy laced pot. Regulation will drive the price up.

As for "health" related stuff. No matter what Joe juice Maker puts in his liquid, taking my first statement into account. It certainly cant be worse then the "standard" smoke. I vote no to regulation.
 

meli.

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My fear is that it will be lumped in with cigarettes, and made to expensive for small vendors to be in business and compete with bigger companies.

And if it becomes the same as cigarettes in the FDA's eyes and big tobacco gets their fingers in it. what is to stop them from putting all of the other harmful and addictive additives in ejuice that is found in cigarettes. They put this stuff in their product to make it more addictive and increase profit anyways, and if an ecig is the same as a cig what, or even who, is going to stop them?

Marlboro flavored ejuice steeped and fermented in chemical treated Marlboro tobacco... YUMMY!

Now lets think this through a little, the FDA came out with misinformation regarding e-cigs, stating they contained a ton of rubbish and carcinogens, this threw the Vaping world into the abyss of more misinformation, supposition and blatant lies by the powers that be the world over. The reasoning behind the deeming regulation is to make it safer for the user or to establish that the products are safe for the user. How the FDA go about doing this, no one knows for sure. However, whatever they propose can be contested and appealed.

My question is, why would the Tobacco companies want to make vaping Less safe than it currently is, when we have the FDA and especially Big Pharma (the biggest loser in this game) waiting to pounce on the first mistake the vaping industry makes and start the with the 'We told you so' horror story?

I would also ask if BT were so haphazard about vaping why would they insist keeping FDA approved Labs?
As far as steeping tobacco in order to make juice, it's already been done, and not by BT. But if BT come out with their own versions of WTA and it's no different or better than what is already available on the market, what's wrong with that?
BT haven't tried to hide the ingredients of their liquids, if anything they provide more information than some of the more popular juice vendors out there.
 
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Ladypixel

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well hello there 13.1er...im running my second half in march too...congrats to you

And congrats to you, too! :) I love that I can -breathe- again. I never was much of a runner... but now, I'm becoming one, and I always wanted to be. :) But I'll leave it at that as I don't wanna derail the conversation TOO much. :)
 

DanFromRioRancho

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My question is, why would the Tobacco companies want to make vaping Less safe than it currently is, when we have the FDA and especially Big Pharma (the biggest loser in this game) waiting to pounce on the first mistake the vaping industry makes and start the with the 'We told you so' horror story?

One possible, and I believe reasonable, explanation:

BT and BP are waiting to pounce on the first mistake made by the current industry players -- kick them to the curb and BP/BP have a new cash cow waiting for them.

The FDA/BP/BT triumvirate legitimized the use of ammonia, nitrates, etc, in cigarette tobacco which resulted in analogs becoming significantly more addictive, with correspondingly higher sales, and.......a lot more unhealthy crap in the product.

As Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good". If introducing unhealthy crap into BT/BP produced eliquid can increase their profits, and they can get it through the FDA the same way they did with ammonia et al, I would certainly expect them to do so.
 

DC2

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As Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good". If introducing unhealthy crap into BT/BP produced eliquid can increase their profits, and they can get it through the FDA the same way they did with ammonia et al, I would certainly expect them to do so.
As far as I know the FDA has never regulated the content of cigarettes.

EDIT: Other than things they are allowed to regulate by the FSPTCA
EDIT: Which means flavors, for the most part
 
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DanFromRioRancho

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As far as I know the FDA has never regulated the content of cigarettes.

The Tobacco Control Act "Allows FDA to require standards for tobacco products (for example, tar and nicotine levels) as appropriate to protect public health."

Hmm.........now I'm no longer sure as to whether or not they have actually used that authority. Want to call it a draw until one of us stumbles into something more definitive?
 

DanFromRioRancho

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I stand corrected, admit error, yield, hoist the white flag........

The FDA has classified ammonia and 96 other cigarette ingredients as harmful, and the cig manufacturers will be required to publicly disclose the quanta content of each of those ingredients. The FDA has not actually regulated the use of those additives.

That was a nice catch, DC2, well done.
 

ckmeyers

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I would definitely like to see some regulation requirements for juice suppliers for safety and consistency. I have more confidence in places like Halo and Johnson Creek because they have batch numbers on their labels. Some of the juices I've tried from other sources barely have a label. That doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence in their product.
 

Drael

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The fact is that I am taking Nicotine, and nicotine is not good. However, there are not too many (or any) studies about nicotine intake through vaping and its effects... shouldn't there be? I mean, I vape and I feel it is healthier,

Theres plenty of studies on nicotine, PG, VG etc. Theres also some studies about vaping being performed right now, or have been performed already. Yeah nicotine is pretty well studied in terms of its health effects.

but I have really no scientific data on its mid term or long term effects.

Theres no real reason logically in my mind, given that nicotine, PG and VG are all studied, to presume some long or mid term effect. In fact, because all the components of e-cigs are fairly well studied, I personally can presume its fairly safe, in the same way by knowing the ingredients of a cake is safe, I can presume the cake itself is safe.

If you are curious about studies, i suggest you google up about ruyans studies. They have anaylsed things like vapour composition, nicotine absorbed per puffs, enivoromental effects on smoking. They are doing a tripple blind on its efficacy for giving up this year. Should be fully registered as a medicine by the end of next year, here in NZ.

But, in the case of long term studies (which BTW, are NOT carried out for medicines before they are released - post marketing studies and such look at that after they are already for sale, same with cell phones, wifi, novel food flavourings and preservatives - its unfair to hold something to a higher standard than everything else, and as ill explain, its kinda impossible) -

One needs to actually _wait_, a mid, or long term amount of time, before results of such studies can be had. I am positive that studies, like the ones being undertaken, and already completed will continue into the future where such long-term e-ciggarette use surveys and data can be collected. And I am sure they will be exactly as we expect them to be, proportionate to the lesser harms known to be caused by nicotine.

But, regardless, unless you have a time machine, we will have to wait for that. You need populations of people who have used something long term, to study its long term effects! :p

Should we not want these studies to take place?

They are. The companies themselves are already funding them, both to apply as medicines, and to ease public perception and safisfy customer safety (for examp ruyan, and flavour art, and many more)

I also wonder about what we are all vaping... I mean, we are basically trusting all the companies that produce juices to actually do a good job, use "quality" materials, have a good "quality control" and such, but we really have no idea as no one is keeping watch... What is there to stop a company from say adding extra chemicals (I don't know, for flavor or whatever) to the juices we buy? How do we know they are not (let me exaggerate) giving us juices in recycled bottles taken from hospitals' garbage cans?
I know, I am exaggerating, but the thing is that the fact that a juice "tastes good" doesn't necessarily mean that it meets what we would hope are minimum standards in quality, sanitation, etc...

Manufacturing quality and purity standards are definately a good reason for regulation - we do need regulation there, so that our e-liquids have standardised nicotine quantities, use flavours not suspected of health risks, have purity, and are free of harmful solvents etc.

That and keeping it r18 only are two things they should regulate.

Of course, cigarretes (analogues) are terrible, but the fact is that since they are regulated, they are pretty "standard" in a way. They are all produced in the same way... I wonder whether the idea of regulating the production (for example) of juices is bad inherently....

Actually not really. Theres no requirements for cigarette companies to not add whatever they like into tobacco. I used to work for a big tobacco company, lol.

Its not at all governed by the sort of quality control, and safety requirements that foods are. I think there are some potential controls, and some in theory stuff - like they have recently been required to publish ingredients lists online, but I think personally their honesty there may be questionable and it seems pretty much like they are still totally unregulated in terms of what they manufacture.

There might be some manufacturing standards, you cant sell them in sweet or enjoyable flavours, and there are certainly age restrictions, but actually theres a suprisingly low amount of regulation on how they are made. Which does make the who situation a little hypocritical.

If I was making the deeming regulations as the FDA, I would just prevent glamour advertising for e-cigs, make it strict r18 and regulate manufacturing standards for e-juice. Thats it.

But I would also _start_ implementing manufacturing standards for tobacco, by restricting what ingredients are allowed into it and what level of TSNAs especially are allowed in the tobacco they use. Different tobacco strains have different levels of tsna's and I have NO IDEA why the cancer causing chemicals in tobacco are not regulated to a reasonable minimum.

I would also want to promote snus use and e-cig use over tobacco use, by making both of them less restricted - more available at a wider variety of points of sale etc and making smoked tobacco itself a little harder to get

(not preventing purchase of smoked tobacco, just encouraging lower harm alternatives by having them a little more available, with a little less restrictions).

I would alway make the warnings, if any, on snus and e-cigs, objective and much milder than the ones on smoked tobacco, mostly relating to nicotine's health effects, like high blood pressure, increased heart rate and oxiditive stress on the eyes and arteries (and some much low cancer risks with snus - pancreatic cancer is it? Anyway there is a slight risk been shown there, but its nothing like as high as cancer and smoking) -

Versus/as opposed to the, also fairly objective, ya probably gonna die stuff you get with smoked tobacco...(high cancer, stroke and heart disease risks etc)

Again, so that people are encouraged to choose the lesser harm.

Thats just me.
 
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Hello World

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Nothing wrong with regulations providing they are reasonable and practical and add a degree of public protection and safety to the consumer. Unfortunately that also spells new taxes which would likely double if not triple the price on e-liquids either categorized as dangerous tobacco products or BP controlled substances.

I don't know why Nicorette products are so expensive ... either hefty taxes or huge BP profits built in, but somebody is gonna want their extortionate percentage on it. Will the real Al Capone please stand up.

Unfortunately, we can't have it both ways ... regulation means either no more DIY, or supplies taxed to the ying-yang.
 
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Hello World

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Regulation is only good if its done by people, not the government, they will tax the hell out of juices and mods to make it costing more than cigs...
We also need to keep in mind that the FDA and other regulatory agencies keep a gray cloud of consequence over those who sell unsafe products, and forces in de facto ethics where no regulations exist. Therefore some regulation and/or enforcement is needed to keep such over-looming threats in place.
 

chrisvapo

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Nothing wrong with regulations providing they are reasonable and practical and add a degree of public protection and safety to the consumer. Unfortunately that also spells new taxes which would likely double if not triple the price on e-liquids either categorized as dangerous tobacco products or BP controlled substances.

I don't know why Nicorette products are so expensive ... either hefty taxes or huge BP profits built in, but somebody is gonna want their extortionate percentage on it. Will the real Al Capone please stand up.

Unfortunately, we can't have it both ways ... regulation means either no more DIY, or supplies tax to the ying-yang.

we can have it both wats....order tobacco leaves legally and moonshine you own nicotine oil.....easy to test the strength and purity....
 

Hello World

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we can have it both wats....order tobacco leaves legally and moonshine you own nicotine oil.....easy to test the strength and purity....
Yeah ... lol ... I could see it getting to that point if they slam us with bans or regs & taxes.

My kid finished Uni last year with a masters in chemistry and tells me it's easy to get and child's play to make.
 
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zapped

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85 five cents a pack, thats what I remember paying in Virginia when I was 14 years old and didnt need an i.d to buy them.

Funny thing is 15 years ago on a cruise out of the country you could still buy them for 1.50 a pack until the cruise lines figured out they could make a ton of money off of them.

back then that equaled 3.00 a pack in state, federal, sin and excise taxes. TWICE what the product cost
 
85 five cents a pack, thats what I remember paying in Virginia when I was 14 years old and didnt need an i.d to buy them.

Funny thing is 15 years ago on a cruise out of the country you could still buy them for 1.50 a pack until the cruise lines figured out they could make a ton of money off of them.

back then that equaled 3.00 a pack in state, federal, sin and excise taxes. TWICE what the product cost

I remember .39 a pack on the base in Germany...and not being able to afford them. Now they're closer to $5 and I don't want to afford them. LOL!
 

Kretek

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Feb 6, 2013
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Minnesota
The opportunity is there for someone, perhaps someone reading this message, to form a private regulatory body. This body would specifically deal with the substances and and materials that are either in ejuice or in the coils, wicks, and batting that are used in the delivery of ejuice. Companies would participate on a voluntary basis, paying a membership fee and would receive in return monthly inspections where the hygiene, purity, nic level accuracy, and production standards were verified. If meeting all of the standards the supplier could then display some sort of seal of approval.

If you buy your juice from a friend down the street, then you're probably capable of evaluating that friend's quality control. If you're buying ejuice online, however, it sure would be nice to know at least one third party evaluated the supplier.
 
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