Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside
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I have been working with Flavourart / TFA for over a year now and have never heard of this ester free fermentation process you speek of maybe you can enlighten me and I could relay your process to there flavor chemist labs.
I don't know. Perhaps they could ask others who make flavor extractions for inhalation for advice...
So you think these "vendors" are making the flavorings themselves with no FDA approval just whipping it up in there clean rooms in the back ?
Some quick research shows there are 2 types of extractions. Natural and chemically enhanced. I think the higher priced e-liquids are more than likely using naturally extracted flavors, which cost more, which is why they don't have diacetyl, AP or butyric acid...
The vendors I listed aren't small, bathtub brew operations...
Perhaps. But to think millions of people could smoke for 8 to 13 years and there would be no health issues is either wonderful news about tobacco or what I think most everyone on the planet would call wishful thinking.
ETA: I also wonder if science would be saying (something along lines of): even though vaping has been around for thousands of years, this tobacco smoking thing is 100 times safer than that.
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DUDE YOU ARE NOT LISTENING!!! YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAND OVER VATS TO INHALE SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF A DAMN SUBSTANCE THAT IS AIRBORNE......
Here are the recorded samples from 4 factories.
That is far, far worse, then. Even casual inhalation can be dangerous. What does that say about deliberately inhaling it in large quantities all day, every day?
It is clearly very dangerous, given the plants were studied for exposure limits and safety protocols like limits and guidelines for exposure and protective equipment became mandated, yet some still believe it is ok to vape...
Yes dangerous to be inhaled for 8 hours straight. Once again the amount that was being inhaled in the workplace was astronomical to anything even remotely close to what vapors vape.. I crunched the numbers for you in my first post, if you want to ignore them fine. You would need to vape 30ml of Five Pawns Gambit daily to reach the daily exposure levels of people who were exposed to .02ppm per day.
Two liquid makers appealed to me in my first round of trying out flavors after starting with Chinese liquids - Halo and Mr E-Liquid. I feel fortunate to find out four years later that they have avoided diketones from the outset. They are two brands that I still find tasty.
Some liquid makers took concerns about diketones seriously as far back as 2010, when they were barely discussed on ECF. No scandal, no witch hunt, just a thoughtful decision to avoid them. That's a fact.
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If you read his posting history you'd be very hard pressed to know what gear he vapes on, or what juices he vapes, or how he vapes. The only thing you would learn about him is that he repeats all the standard ANTZ propaganda talking points repeatedly and endlessly, like a BOT.
I think you may want to read my posts in your other topic as well as here. there is nothing "vicious" in my posts there, nor here. Nor anger. I merely pointed out that
Hardly a viscious response. ^^^^
As for "wanting to believe vaping is harmful"..........I don't think that at all. I do think it "could" be harmful, depending on what one vapes and how. Dose determines poison, etc.
As for lung damage, I smoked for 20 years. There are no reports from my doctor that I had lung damage. When I took up vaping I did not have *reportable* lung damage. My lung xrays showed that I was a smoker, but my oxygen tests and C02 tests were still within acceptable limits.
Yet, we do know that smoking damages people's lungs, right?
If it doesn't then I may as well not have switched to vaping. I don't think vaping is dangerous, but I do have concerns that vaping DA and AP spcecifically, may be somewhat dangerous. So I choose to avoid them. That had pretty much been the thrust of all my posts on not only the 5P topic, but all others as well. Dr. Hubbs and Dr. F. have both said these are avoidable components in ejuice, so I merely choose to avoid them.
I certainly understand that you feel attacked but none of my posts to you have been "personalized" toward Five Pawns, in this topic or your other one. And certainly, none of them have been "viscious."
I won't post to this or any other 5P topics anymore as I don't like being mis-characterized.
Then you'd be letting the apologists win the argument.
So you honestly think these mixlogist (not chemist) can naturally extract custard / fresh cream / ice cream / creme brulee / cinnamon danish swirl / toffee / cookie / butterscotch etc seriously you think you could just plop some bubble gum in a beaker with some PG heat it up and *viola" we have a tasty gum flavor concentrate ?
NET is way different than making a custard .......
I call "TROLLING" !
Companies which care about vaper safety don't make flavors which require the use of potentially harmful chemicals. Those of us who care about what we inhale avoid such flavors...
What are you trying to say? It reads as if you are saying every single flavor, in every category, either has diacetyl, AP or Butric Acid in it. I'd really like more detail if that's what you are saying. Or did you mean all creams/custard flavors contain one of those?
I'm not TRYING to win an argument. That's the whole point and why I haven't and dont' become "viscious". Its not a matter of desperation for me. That is something that has always bothered me about forums in general. The idea that people need the backing of the majority in a social setting. Doesn't make any sense to me. Being agreed with doesn't mean anything. History is filled with the opposite. The lone dissenting voices are squashed and made fun of. (alan turing for instance).
Even the people arguing against my opinion have said in the topics that I have not been viscious and that I have been polite. So I do take exception to having my posts characterized otherwise.
All I've ever said is that based on the limits I've seen, as well as thoughts from Dr. F. and Dr. Hubbs, I have concerns about vaping DA and AP, which don't even have to be in ejuice.
Like I said, it is my own personal decision to trust vape-friendly medical researchers (who are NOT anti-vaping, who are not ANTZ) because they have no financial incentive to their pronouncements........over politicians, vaping activists, and bottle fillers who are less able to be as objective for obvious reasons and who do not have medical/research training.
If some vendors want to eventually prove, with actual peer reviewed published studies, that I need not be concerned, then I will re-consider my decision NOT to vape AP and DA.
Where it stands now is that it has taken me over a year just to get test results from vendors, and then it seems like some of them turn out to be HUGE arguments about who did it, if they did it correctly, what the lab settings were, the dates it was done, and differences between their own labs and somebody else's labs, etc.
In other words, a ton of obsfucation.
I don't need it. I'm not here to protect anyone's brand or bash it either. All I want is straight numbers......not excuses about numbers.
Now, unfortunately, we not only have members attacking other members, but vendors attacking members here (basically, calling Steve an ANTZ).
It's really getting out of hand.
As a matter of fact, name calling and also calling ECF members, who are vapers, by names like ANTZ is probably not even allowed by ECF terms of membership. There were a number of posters who were famous for doing this, and they have since been discouraged from doing so by moderators.
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