Is Water Baptism Necessary For Salvation????

[eHuman]

Southern Gent I won't even begin to question that it is obvious that you have had many years of devout study under someone. But in all of your quest for academic excellence it appears that your study of the letter has left you hard pressed to discern the Spirit of the Word.
This is not a question of academics it is about truth in Gods word.

And you stand behind your academic pursuit of the Bible to discern the truth?

Sir you completely skipped over and ignored some pretty weighty evidense in my post and others.
You offered no such evidence other than what has already been given based personal feelings or emotion. In the desert with no water? I wonder how many times said desert person has ignored the gospel during his lifetime. It's the same hypothetical questioning instead of dealing with what the word of God says.

Bait and Switch avoid the question? Those were fictitious examples, it is plausible, possible, and likely that people have come to Christ without knowing that they should be baptised or able to be baptised. Please plainly, "Can they be saved?"

While using scholarly hermanutics, beyond asking who, what, when, why, where, do you also ask, "Jesus where are you in this scripture, I see the letter, where is the Spirit"?
Without proper hermeneutics there will not be a way to find the truth.

The Spirit teaches does He not? I haven't been to school to study the Bible. Again plainly as Jesus taught to the learned who knew the letter but not the Spirit of scripture. Do you seek for the Spirit behind the commands and teachings? Was it an ordinance performed by man that symbolized a persons death, burial and resurection into Christ the He saves with/by?

I know the places that say believe, repent and be baptized. Show me one that says what happens if we are not baptized.
You can't be serious. You have already by your owns words said it is an imperative command. "Love God", "obey God" is an imperative command. Wonder what would happen if we didn't do it?

Very serious. What happened to you the last time you failed to obey an imperative? Romans 8:1? What happened to all of Israel when they found they couldn't keep the 10 imperatives? Back to the question, What verse describes what happens if the imperative of baptism is not carried out? You draw a conclusion that seems obvious but it is not in the Bible Sir.

It is a requirement for those professiong to or wanting to belong to Christ.
So you can be saved by Christ and yet not belong to Him?

Of course not silly rabbit. Not everyone who walks to the front and makes a verbal confession of faith or is baptised is or gets saved. But historically it was engaged in both by converts, and those desiring to be converted.

Jesus did not Himself baptize anyone (in water).
I beg to differ. .John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:2 Though Jesus Himself did not baptise, but His disciples did.

Cornelius is a prime example, he was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. It is an obedience issue, not a salvation issue.
Without obedience you have no salvation.

The Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius at the hearing of the Gospel without being told about baptism. Acts 10:43-44 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

Not just him but everyone there, and he had many gathered. They were later "ordered" to be baptised by Peter so did Peter save them? They received the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the down payment of Salvation and they were not baptised. I've cited a verse that displays salvation without baptism. Please cite a verse that shows exclusion from the Kingdom of God results from failing to be baptised.

This verse very obviously teaches that baptism is "unto the remission of sins."

You treat baptism as a supernatural event instead of a symbolic ordanance. Baptism by definition is a symbolic act (From Strongs)NT:907 to immerse, submerge; to make overwhelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N. T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:
Also look at the NT exegetical disctionary,
Louw and Nida = "to employ water in a religious ceremony designed to symbolize purification and initiation on the basis of repentance - 'to baptize"
Thayers "an immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin, and administered to those who, impelled by a desire for salvation, sought admission to the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom;

Regardless of "the spirit" involved, we can not overlook the word of God to reach a satisfying conclusion.

That is the closest you've come to answering, so you do notregard the Spirit of Scripture?

The spirit behind any piece of scriptue = What is God really saying here? What is the important point that He is making? Words on paper may confuse but all of scripture's instructions WILL line up with the attributes of God. That is what is so beautiful about the Bible.

Israel's Pharesee's main problem was that they had the scripture and read it, but they read into it and did not understand the Spirit of the commandments or the source of power to overcome. Jesus chastized them the fiercest, those who proclaimed to hold and know the ordinances of God who used it for greed and to subject unfairness to God's people.

Brother there is a reason I'm lining out these questions and statements in the way that I am. Now I agree with you on this, there is no earthly reason that I can fathom why someone who is physically able would not be baptized. But that was not the OP question. Yes baptism is an imperative and you have kept it. But for which imperative failed will you be kept out of Heaven? So now Romans 8:28-39?

God judges the heart and motive behind the action over the presence or absence of the action. If we could do it all right we wouldn't need a saviour and a sacrifice would not be necessary.

Here's a piece, but read all of Acts chapter 15. Nothing about baptism.
Acts 15:7-11
7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Acts 15:19-20
"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

 

[DaveP]

The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be with Him that day in Paradise. There is no recorded baptism for the thief.

The Lawyer at the sermon on the mount asked Jesus, "What shall I do to be inherit eternal life? Jesus asked him, What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus said. You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” Luke 10:27

He didn't say, "and be baptized."

The debate over baptism is reminiscent of the Pharisees who were told that they strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. Matthew 23-24.

 

[LisaLisa]

The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be with Him that day in Paradise. There is no recorded baptism for the thief.

The Lawyer at the sermon on the mount asked Jesus, "What shall I do to be inherit eternal life? Jesus asked him, What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus said. You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” Luke 10:27

He didn't say, "and be baptized."

The debate over baptism is reminiscent of the Pharisees who were told that they strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. Matthew 23-24.

I agree with that 150%!

 

[LisaLisa]

I think it's along the same lines as tithing or going to church. You don't have to do either to be saved. God would probably prefer that you do, but it's not a requirement of salvation.

 

[Southern Gent]

And you stand behind your academic pursuit of the Bible to discern the truth?

Bait and Switch avoid the question? Those were fictitious examples, it is plausible, possible, and likely that people have come to Christ without knowing that they should be baptised or able to be baptised. Please plainly, "Can they be saved?"

The Spirit teaches does He not? I haven't been to school to study the Bible. Again plainly as Jesus taught to the learned who knew the letter but not the Spirit of scripture. Do you seek for the Spirit behind the commands and teachings? Was it an ordinance performed by man that symbolized a persons death, burial and resurection into Christ the He saves with/by?

Very serious. What happened to you the last time you failed to obey an imperative? Romans 8:1? What happened to all of Israel when they found they couldn't keep the 10 imperatives? Back to the question, What verse describes what happens if the imperative of baptism is not carried out? You draw a conclusion that seems obvious but it is not in the Bible Sir.

Of course not silly rabbit. Not everyone who walks to the front and makes a verbal confession of faith or is baptised is or gets saved. But historically it was engaged in both by converts, and those desiring to be converted.

John 4:2 Though Jesus Himself did not baptise, but His disciples did.

The Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius at the hearing of the Gospel without being told about baptism. Acts 10:43-44 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

Not just him but everyone there, and he had many gathered. They were later "ordered" to be baptised by Peter so did Peter save them? They received the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the down payment of Salvation and they were not baptised. I've cited a verse that displays salvation without baptism. Please cite a verse that shows exclusion from the Kingdom of God results from failing to be baptised.

You treat baptism as a supernatural event instead of a symbolic ordanance. Baptism by definition is a symbolic act (From Strongs)NT:907 to immerse, submerge; to make overwhelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N. T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:
Also look at the NT exegetical disctionary,
Louw and Nida = "to employ water in a religious ceremony designed to symbolize purification and initiation on the basis of repentance - 'to baptize"
Thayers "an immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin, and administered to those who, impelled by a desire for salvation, sought admission to the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom;

That is the closest you've come to answering, so you do notregard the Spirit of Scripture?

The spirit behind any piece of scriptue = What is God really saying here? What is the important point that He is making? Words on paper may confuse but all of scripture's instructions WILL line up with the attributes of God. That is what is so beautiful about the Bible.

Israel's Pharesee's main problem was that they had the scripture and read it, but they read into it and did not understand the Spirit of the commandments or the source of power to overcome. Jesus chastized them the fiercest, those who proclaimed to hold and know the ordinances of God who used it for greed and to subject unfairness to God's people.

Brother there is a reason I'm lining out these questions and statements in the way that I am. Now I agree with you on this, there is no earthly reason that I can fathom why someone who is physically able would not be baptized. But that was not the OP question. Yes baptism is an imperative and you have kept it. But for which imperative failed will you be kept out of Heaven? So now Romans 8:28-39?

God judges the heart and motive behind the action over the presence or absence of the action. If we could do it all right we wouldn't need a saviour and a sacrifice would not be necessary.

Here's a piece, but read all of Acts chapter 15. Nothing about baptism.
Acts 15:7-11
7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Acts 15:19-20
"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

I'll say this again as I've said before..The majority of this/these thoughts are pure denominational doctrine at it's best and has absolutely no bearing as to what the apostles of Jesus Christ taught and practiced. You can ignore it all you wish from now until eternity but the word of God says what it says. Jesus said, "if you love me keep my commandments". This includes those instituted by acting authorized agents. John says "test the spirits to see if they are of God". I pray your "spirit leading" is solid enough that you are able to boldly proclaim what they need not do instead of what the Bible clearly tells us should be done for the purpose of salvation. This is why the Bible says "let not many be teachers". There are many souls who may indeed be influenced by the very teaching they read from this thread. You know from scripture exactly what Acts 2:38 says and of this there is no denial. I as a teacher have no interest in taking risk with another persons soul. The Bible is clear to do it, the Bible is clear what it is for. God have mercy on you if you are wrong as you have taken "spirit of the word" rather than the word itself. I pray your conviction is solid and you are satisfied with it because you will stand in judgment concerning your teaching. I as a student of God's word and child of God prefer not to gamble with such a precious stake. God bless.

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[eHuman]

Bless you too Brother but your opening comment is my point. I don't have a denominational viewpoint, I don't read commentaries, I don't read other books about the Bible, I study the Bible and the best Jewish and Greek that I am able to, I am no schollar but the truth is more important to me than you could know.

There is a reason for these questions, it's important to me.

Humor me and answer the questions from above instead of brushing them aside, I may yet learn something from this correspondence.

As you note I never claimed that baptism is not a command. I do claim that you draw a conclusion that is not expressed in the Bible. Yes I heard you, unto - for- because of - to absolve- the remission of sins...

Representative of
Symbolic
ceromony
baptism

God is not after the flesh but the heart. The flesh will respond once the heart is won.

 

[Southern Gent]

I don't have a denominational viewpoint,

For some reason I doubt this and forgive me if I am wrong. I have heard you teach on more than one instance the doctrine of Total Depravity. I have also seen evidence of the doctrine of Limited Atonement in small sporadic portions but that's ok as long as you understand it and make people aware of it.(so no I'm not picking on you) Here is a "safe" lesson especially if one is planning to teach and save souls. You say show me instances of people not being baptized being rejected/lost. You know from even your studies that this is impossible for we don't know the judgment of souls while here on this earth. I say, tell me what the apostles did to save souls and bring disciples to the Lord? You say yes that is true but there has got to be another way..look at this. Why go completely around in the circle when the clear safe answer is available? You say, "I see where there is repentance & baptism" but..but.."I also see where some say just believe" so that has to be conclusive as a method of salvation as well. To believe for the early Christians meant what? To just believe that Jesus was the Christ or did they believe what the apostles were telling them to do in order to be saved? Romans says to call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved. Now where have we seen this? Oh yes, Peter at Pentecost said to be baptized doing what? Calling on the name of the Lord. Let's talk spirit just a bit. God is not a God of confusion for if there is confusion it is not from God. The apostles all received a miraculous indwelling before Pentecost and Jesus said to them earlier, "don't worry the Spirit will lead you and direct you what to say". At this point the Spirit becomes Christ's acting agent to the apostles with all authority of Christ. Once the Spirit fell upon the apostles they spoke the words at Pentecost. So in essence they were speaking the words as though they were Christ Himself. Why be dogmatic concerning this instance? This is the only place in the Bible where there is a full description or account of people being saved. It is full and in it's entirety. Many of the latter are only portions of the original statements made from Acts and yet most contain at least some of the usage from the context. So now are we to assume that the apostles all taught something different as to salvation? Was it not the same Holy Spirit who was directing each of them and would not it be safe to "assume" that they were all teaching the same thing Peter taught at Pentecost? Remember God is not a God of confusion. Can you see how the variance would cause problems? Those of Jerusalem would say "I was baptized and am saved", those from Corinth would say "I just believed and am saved", Ephesus would simply "call out Jesus' name and be saved". But nowhere in the Bible do we see the confusion of today as to what is needed to be saved. They all believed and practiced the same thing regardless of how we transcribe it today. The danger here is that just because we are not told the complete story of the individual accounts of salvation, the language is such that we as students of the Bible should readily be prepared to remedy it back to what we have already been given as the means to salvation. This is especially true if there seems to be contradictions of which we both know do not exist. So as teachers what can we say especially if we are interested in saving souls? Do we tell someone that baptism is a good idea but not reallynecessary or do we take what we know as a complete example, explain it to the best of our ability and urge others to do it. It kind of reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw once that read: God said it, I believe it, it must be true Now do you see the fallacy and danger of error in that statement? It should have read: God said it, it must be true. The truth is if God says it, it is true. Whether one believes it or not has no bearing on whether or not it is true. This is very much why you see my dogmatism and I keep saying repeatedly that the latter does not nullify the previous.

 

[eHuman]

You completely miss my point, but we are conversing. I will have to read up on "total depravity". I recognize the term but it's meaning escapes me. Limited atonement too I think. I didn't ask that you prove a persons salvation after refusing baptism, as you know we can't see a man's heart or God's decision. I asked for Biblical reference of one instance where the Bible explains what happens (or doesn't) if a "believer is not baptized. And you can't because it is not there. You assume that because it commands "be baptized" that failure to do so results in eternal separation.

Baptism is an ordinance. It is a "type". When you partake of the passover meal or the Lord's Supper; when you eat and drink do you believe that the bread and wine miraculously transforms into the literal body and blood of Christ? Or is it as a memorial to the Lord dating back to the children of God in Egypt. The sacrificial lamb slaughtered, the meat taken and eaten and the blood smeared on the lentil and door post. Believing and trusting in the sacrifice and bloodshed of the spotless lamb. The Death Angel passing over those who trusted in God. Jesus the fulfillment of that shadow. As often as you partake in the passover meal do you do so in remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ? It is an ordinance and a blessed time spent reflecting on the work of God, His passion, mercy, grace and love poured out for you and me. You surely miss out of you don't understand and partake in the Lord's supper from the proper mindset but does your security suffer if you don't?

I say, "believe and be baptized" just as you do, it's not a recommendation. Where we part at is (you say) that it is the act of baptism that ultimately saves us (I.E. if it doesn't take place then we won't be saved). Was Cornelius' evidence of salvation that the Holy Spirit fell upon him? Or was is later when he was baptized? Peter was shocked too so you are not alone.

By grace through baptism lest any man should boast? It is a combination of the drawing of God. The gift to believe, the gift of repentance and a broken heart, the choosing to submit to God. All of this an internal thing. Yes that man or woman should go out and be baptized, but that is not what saved them, it is NOT what cleansed them of their sins.

To tell someone that if they do not get baptized then they will not be able to go to Heaven (the polite way of saying that they will go to Hell) enters you into dangerous territory. You have no idea the work that God has or hasn't done in that persons heart and you are judging their salvation merely over scripture that say be baptized.

So baptism becomes the unpardonable sin. Anyone not able to be baptized will go to Hell, even if they truly believe and repent? You are missing the point. That's not God's doctrine that's Satan's garbage.

Justification is merely the beginning, Sanctification takes a life time.

Luke 18:13-14
"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Go ahead and a say that is irrelevant because it is under the old and you will prove my point that you just don't get it.

It is an inward thing not an outward thing. The result causes outward actions but you attribute the outward action as the reason for the inward change.

May we both grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ.

 

[eHuman]

God said it, it must be true. But if you don't understand it you'll mess it up if you teach it.

 

[lmrasch]

Thanks for hanging in there ehuman, I appreciate your diligence...
Blessings

 

[Southern Gent]

So baptism becomes the unpardonable sin. Anyone not able to be baptized will go to Hell, even if they truly believe and repent? You are missing the point. That's not God's doctrine that's Satan's garbage.
You nor I have any jurisdiction over the mind of God to know what will happen to those who can not be baptized for whatever reason it may be. We will all be in the hands of a fair and just God. No I'm not missing any point. You been back to the same thing several times. The contention lies in the heart and on this you are correct. To completely ignore the explicit command for the explicit reason and do so willfully? Do at your own peril. Where is the heart in willful denial of obedience? You say Cornelius was saved when the Holy Spirit came upon him? This is proof of God's acceptance? You need to do some serious study on the actions of the Holy Spirit. Conviction yes..salvation no. There are countless millions whom the spirit knocks and they know in their hearts that they need to do something to mend their relationship with God and yet they never do. Was the spirit there to convict them or save them. The spirit came to convict them of their condition so that they might be saved. If your point is made, then they are saved at that point and there is nothing they can do or need do about it either way. The Holy Spirit is there so this is a "sign" of acceptance by God. This again is pure Calvinist doctrine whether you know it or not. The point you miss is the act of baptism itself. Can you separate baptism and obedience? Can you be saved without obedience? In other words can you come to God and still do it "your way"? You have said yourself that it is obedience. What does it mean to you to render obedience to God? The correct answer is no, one can not be saved on his own terms. At what point is one saved? Oh you say the Holy Spirit makes a down payment for you and you follow through when you can? So you are saved and yet still disobedient to the will of God? I'm afraid the early Christians and the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ knew of no such doctrine.
You have no idea the work that God has or hasn't done in that persons heart and you are judging their salvation merely over scripture that say be baptized.
What in the name of God should we go by if we can't/shouldn't use the word of God? Let's use or be lead by our fallible spirit (of which you have said is inherently sinful) instead of the infallible Holy Spirit that through agents wrote the word of God.
What pray tell do you think YOU will be judged by in the end?
You keep crying "it is in an inward thing"....yes it is. But without your obedience to baptism (which is the will of God) have you really changed? Perhaps you pray, give alms? Perhaps you are really sorry for the way you have lived your life and are planning to make changes. Are you or are you not still disobedient? and so we have a new class of Christian called the "disobedient saved waiting to give us a sign of their inward grace"
But if you don't understand it you'll mess it up if you teach it.
Indeed there are some who know just enough to be absolutely dangerous.

 

[Sandybeach40]

??????????

If it is im doomed.

 

[lmrasch]

If it is im doomed.

It's a fairly easy fix .....

 

[Southern Gent]

Calm down peeps..it's just a debate.

 

[Southern Gent]

It's a fairly easy fix .....

Don't believe anything Imrasch says today.....look at the post count.




















666

 

[chimney55]

I've pretty much stayed out of this thread because of the "debate". I'm not going to pretend that I have great knowledge of NT Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic, but it has always been my "impression" that the laws that were given to Moses were imperatives as well. The blood of Christ was sufficient to cover the sins of those who had not followed those imperatives even if those people lived before Christ. No one was ever saved by following the law. It is and has always been by grace through faith that saves us---it's a gift of God, nothing that we will ever do that will save us. This includes imperatives given with before the cross as well as after other than that we believe on Him. To say otherwise is to add works to God's grace. What I'm hearing from you is that believing in Jesus' atoning death and being baptized are both required. This puts them on equal levels. One is as important as the other. So, you're saying that Jesus' death and resurrection are not enough? That it's something that WE have to do to make sure that our salvation is secure!?! Excuse me, but what an ego! You believe that there's something that you can do to make up for Christ's insufficiency!!
I'm sorry, but I'm going to bow out of this thread now. *shakes head*

 

[lmrasch]

Don't believe anything Imrasch says today.....look at the post count.
666

LOL! Gotta love it dun-dun-dun......

I soooooo thank God for His sense of humor.......seriously laughing out loud......tension breaker....LOL!

How He puts up with the bunch of His kids scrapping about what Daddy means I'll never know.....at least here on planet earth....seeing through the glass darkly...thanks SG

 

[Southern Gent]

I've pretty much stayed out of this thread because of the "debate". I'm not going to pretend that I have great knowledge of NT Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic, but it has always been my "impression" that the laws that were given to Moses were imperatives as well. The blood of Christ was sufficient to cover the sins of those who had not followed those imperatives even if those people lived before Christ. No one was ever saved by following the law. It is and has always been by grace through faith that saves us---it's a gift of God, nothing that we will ever do that will save us. This includes imperatives given with before the cross as well as after other than that we believe on Him. To say otherwise is to add works to God's grace. What I'm hearing from you is that believing in Jesus' atoning death and being baptized are both required. This puts them on equal levels. One is as important as the other. So, you're saying that Jesus' death and resurrection are not enough? That it's something that WE have to do to make sure that our salvation is secure!?! Excuse me, but what an ego! You believe that there's something that you can do to make up for Christ's insufficiency!!
I'm sorry, but I'm going to bow out of this thread now. *shakes head*

The question is not about the "ceremonious" baptism that we think of today. Unfortunately this is what the argument hinges upon with one side saying it is law keeping, another side saying it does nothing more than give sign and yet another believing in what is known as baptismal regeneration. All sides of the argument have part truth and fallacy. It is not the act of baptism in an of itself. It is not about any insufficiency in the redemptive work of Christ but it is the most used argument to skirt around the real issue. The bottom line comes down to obedience. In other words it is our Lord's sacrifice and your obedience to the will of God that go hand in hand. To say that one's heart is right and yet the same heart says "I won't do something that God wants" does not have a very "saved" ring to it. The question regardless of what one feels that baptism is for, whether it be for remission of sin or sign of inward grace is the question of obedience. Is one saved and can one be saved without obedience to God's will? The scriptures say to fulfill God's will is to repent and be baptized.

 

[chimney55]

The question regardless of what one feels that baptism is for, whether it be for remission of sin or sign of inward grace is the question of obedience. Is one saved and can one be saved without obedience to God's will? The scriptures say to fulfill God's will is to repent and be baptized.

So, can you honestly say that in your life that you are 100% obedient to ALL of God's "laws" whether transmitted through Moses, Jesus, or the apostles?

 

[Southern Gent]

So, can you honestly say that in your life that you are 100% obedient to ALL of God's "laws" whether transmitted through Moses, Jesus, or the apostles?

You are missing the point. There will not be anyone alive who can say this. If as a child your father sent you to the store and told you to bring back bread...would you bring him back 2 drinks and a candy bar? And if you did would you have the courage to tell him, "I know what you said but I feel this is good enough"? The point is that God said do it. To willingly not do it once you know to do it..is to say this is good enough for you.
Is this obedience or disobedience?