It is IMPORTANT to Vape in PUBLIC

[zoiDman]

Interesting. I have never once encountered someone who was even slightly upset, much less ...... off. Has this happened to you often? Or is it just something you are afraid might happen?

Just curious.

It's about 50:50

Many Bars I have been in are Fine with it. But not so many Restaurants, Shops or Offices are.

Another thing I have noticed is that Patrons seem to be more receptive that Owners or Managers of Businesses. I was told by one shop owner that He didn't really have a problem with e-Cigarettes. But that he had received Numerous Complaints from customers about people vaping in his Establishment.

What he basically said was, and I'm Para-Phrasing, "I'm not going to Drive Away 20 People Just so One Person can Use a e-Cigarette in My shop. Why can't you just Hold Off until you are Outside? Do you have to have it constantly?"

 

[sailorman]

Interesting. I have never once encountered someone who was even slightly upset, much less ...... off. Has this happened to you often? Or is it just something you are afraid might happen?

Just curious.

I'm curious about this too. I hear these stories and have to wonder what else is at play here. I'm convinced that in a majority of these "...... off" incidents, the vaper is holding a cigarette lookalike. But even that's not enough to explain it. Did they have a noisy monkey on their shoulder? Were they drunk and obnoxious? Were they standing in a Mosque while they simultaneously vaped, ate a pork chop and wiped their mouth with pages torn from a Koran? What? What kind of crazy, unreasonable people do they hang around with?

 

[Uncle Willie]

It's about 50:50

Many Bars I have been in are Fine with it. But not so many Restaurants, Shops or Offices are.

Another thing I have noticed is that Patrons seem to be more receptive that Owners or Managers of Businesses. I was told by one shop owner that He didn't really have a problem with e-Cigarettes. But that he had received Numerous Complaints from customers about people vaping in his Establishment.

What he basically said was, and I'm Para-Phrasing, "I'm not going to Drive Away 20 People Just so One Person can Use a e-Cigarette in My Shop. Why can't you just Hold Off until you are Outside? Do you have to have it constantly?"

Exactly .. if it looks like smoke, it's going to rile someone .. and many could care less if it's a PV ..

 

[zoiDman]

Exactly .. if it looks like smoke, it's going to rile someone .. and many could care less if it's a PV ..

I think in many ways that e-Cigs haven't fully hit the mainstream yet. Just as other's have mentioned, many people can't tell what is in this Smoke Like vapor.

I can't blame a Shop owner for not wanting e-Cigs in there shop. We are a Very Small Minority compared to all the people that may come into a given shop.

And shop owners are trying to make a Profit. Not Driving away paying customers.

 

[sailorman]

... I was told by one shop owner that He didn't really have a problem with e-Cigarettes. But that he had received Numerous Complaints from customers about people vaping in his Establishment...

Wow, you must live in the vaping capital of the world. I would be very suspicious of any shopkeeper who said such a thing. I wouldn't argue about it, but I sure wouldn't swallow it. Even though retail shops are not my favorite vaping venue I've done it a fair number of times. I can only recall a couple of times seeing anyone else vaping, and then only in "stealth" mode. It's rare enough even in bars, let alone shops. So, I have to wonder how a shopkeeper can have "numerous" complaints, especially given that the odd customer who thinks you're smoking either says something or gives you the evil eye or takes a closer look and realizes you're not.

Every non-bar/restaurant shopkeeper I've talked to, and I've talked to a lot, either has had no exposure at all to e-cigs, or would just prefer not to have you vape because he doesn't know their legal status, or is totally indifferent to them but has no objection unless he gets a complaint (which, BTW, never comes). I've never once heard a shopkeeper say he's had a complaint, nevermind "numerous" complaints.

You're right. Patrons are more receptive than owners or managers. But owners and managers are just erring on the side of caution. And, since patrons are more receptive, it makes no sense whatsoever for a manager to claim he's had "numerous complaints". It makes even less sense for him to say something that is almost an exact quote of what I've heard posters in other threads say, which is the last paragraph of your post.

Any shopkeeper who told you he's had "numerous complaints" must have a vaper magnet business in combination with a hyper-sensitive ANTZ clientele. Not a good combination. My guess though, is that someone is fibbing.

 

[sailorman]

Exactly .. if it looks like smoke, it's going to rile someone .. and many could care less if it's a PV ..

So, they could care less. What does that mean? Whether they care or not is irrelevant. Because they don't care it's not smoke, that means it IS smoke? Is that what you're saying? If they don't care, it means they are justified in filing a false police report about you smoking?

ANTZ: "Officer, that man is smoking"
Cop: "No ma'am, that's not smoke. He's not smoking"
ANTZ: "I could care less. Arrest him"
Cop: "Uh, yeah. Right."

Me: "Sorry honey, we can't be seen in public together anymore"
My GF: "Why?"
Me: "You're too young. You look like my daughter. We might "rile" someone."
My GF: "But I'm not."
Me: "Yeah, I know. But it might rile someone and they could care less if you're not my daughter."
My GF: "Boo Hoo! You're a spineless butthole"

 

[sailorman]

I think in many ways that e-Cigs haven't fully hit the mainstream yet. Just as other's have mentioned, many people can't tell what is in this Smoke Like vapor.

I can't blame a Shop owner for not wanting e-Cigs in there shop. We are a Very Small Minority compared to all the people that may come into a given shop.

And shop owners are trying to make a Profit. Not Driving away paying customers.

If you had any real-world experience with public vaping, you would realize that this fear of negative public reaction is exaggerated and you wouldn't make assumptions based on what you know about the public reaction to cigarette smoke.

An unfounded fear of negative reaction shouldn't be transferred to the shop owner and used as a rationale under which he might decide to ban vaping in his establishment.

Don't get me wrong. I totally agree he has every right to ban vaping. No question. No argument, regardless of the reason.

But you, yourself even admit that the public is more receptive. The public is the shop owners customer base. The fear of driving away customers is illogical by both your and my own experience. Have you ever seen a customer leave an establishment because of someone vaping? I have vaped nearly everywhere and not once has anyone complained to me or the management, let alone left the store. Once, an old lady asked me to stop smoking. When I explained that I wasn't, that was the end of it. She didn't leave. She didn't complain to the manager. No one is going to run a shopper out of a store with their vapor. It just doesn't happen.

When people leave a place because of smokers, it's not the act of smoking that runs them out. It's the smoke. Restaurant owners didn't see people leaving the non-smoking areas because of the existence of smoking areas. People didn't refuse to fly because a plane had a smoking section. People don't leave a theater when the fog machine cranks up. People aren't offended by smoking. They're offended by smoke. Tobacco smoke. Not stuff that just looks like smoke.

I have personally spoken to dozens of shop owners and never has one of them expressed the fear of driving away paying customers as a reason to ban vaping. It's not even a been a factor. Never. Not once. Some of these shop owners didn't even support the indoor smoking bans, yet they had already banned smoking for reasons that had nothing to do with driving away customers.

I think you're speculating about the fears of shop owners and that speculation is based on an exaggerated sense of peoples outrage over public smoking, their opposition to vaping and their inability to quickly realize that vapor is not smoke.

 

[wv2win]

Well, don't you love how easy it is to argue a point when you get to misstate it yourself? "Happily blowing vapor anywhere and eveywhere"..Nice turn of phrase. Got any more in that straw man factory of yours?
Don't forget, it's the NON-smokers who are instrumental in this. The industry has nothing to gain by a public education campaign that they couldn't achieve by simple advertising. The tobacco companies did just fine in the face of decades of anti-smoking campaigns. The e-cig industry will as well. E-cigs won't be outlawed by the Feds. It makes little difference to them if you hide in your closet to vape. Among smokers, the word will get around despite vaping being banned everywhere but private residences. As long as they're not treated worse than analogs, the upside of a PR campaign aimed at the general public is insignificant.

I seriously doubt you are significantly older than me, so save the "I'm an old man" shtick. My old fart self has personally either been instrumental or influential in setting the vaping policy of at least a dozen public accommodations. And that was without even trying. Over the next months, how many people, smokers and non-smokers alike, will be introduced to vaping because of that? How much immunity will that provide against the propaganda of the antis?

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. ~ Margaret Mead

And all that is beside the point anyway. No one is saying you have to become an activist for your own interests. By slinking around in the shadows, you already are an activist; against yourself.

You are right on the mark, sailorman. The Straw Man trick is the sign of a weak position and the inability to support it. And I love your last line....just so true.

 

[wv2win]

Sailorman, do you really get off on being rude to people or are you simply unaware of it?

Oh I think he is Aware of It.

Do you have a reading comprehension deficiency? It is easy to make a statement like that but I don't see where it is supported with any specifics. He disagree's with comments that to him (and many others) lack any logic or common sense and backs it up with well thought out arguements. Making one sentence "slam" statements fits well if you are in 5th grade.

 

[wv2win]

So, they could care less. What does that mean? Whether they care or not is irrelevant. Because they don't care it's not smoke, that means it IS smoke? Is that what you're saying? If they don't care, it means they are justified in filing a false police report about you smoking?

ANTZ: "Officer, that man is smoking"
Cop: "No ma'am, that's not smoke. He's not smoking"
ANTZ: "I could care less. Arrest him"
Cop: "Uh, yeah. Right."

Me: "Sorry honey, we can't be seen in public together anymore"
My GF: "Why?"
Me: "You're too young. You look like my daughter. We might "rile" someone."
My GF: "But I'm not."
Me: "Yeah, I know. But it might rile someone and they could care less if you're not my daughter."
My GF: "Boo Hoo! You're a spineless butthole"

If you never posted another comment on this topic, this one sums it all up quite well, lol.

 

[tinajfreeman]

Do you have a reading comprehension deficiency? It is easy to make a statement like that but I don't see where it is supported with any specifics. He disagree's with comments that to him (and many others) lack any logic or common sense and backs it up with well thought out arguements. Making one sentence "slam" statements fits well if you are in 5th grade.

I agree, Sailorman is obviously very passionate about this topic but I don't see him as rude. Having better logical arguments isn't rude. It might annoy someone taking the opposite position, but it isn't rude.

I am glad to hear there are others that feel as I do, that we should not only not be ashamed of vaping, we should be proud to be free of smoking! I AM AN EX! Finally

 

[MickeyRat]

I'm not as militant in presenting them but, I do agree with Sailorman's arguments. I might disagree if I had seen even a small minority object but, I have vaped many times indoors, with people around, in 4 states. I have received permission to vape in every small business where I asked. I have not encountered this resistance that some people feel exists and I have never and would never insist that I have a right to vape in a private business. I just haven't ever encountered anyone that had a problem with it. They are curious. Sometimes a little amused. They don't really understand it sometimes but, I've never seen anyone that had a problem with it. It just hasn't happened.

My take on it is that if someone never encounters it, there's no reason for them to think it's not the same as smoking. The more people that see it, the more people that will know it is different. So, we have two choices. We can vape in public and let people see what it's like and maybe convince enough of them that there's no need for a ban. Or we can hide in corners and convince no one and guarantee a ban.

 

[sailorman]

Now, now...Militant? Moi??

No, I'm not militant. If I was militant, I'd argue with a property owner who unilaterally bans vaping. I wouldn't do that. Never have and can't imagine I ever would. I might attempt to change their mind if they were open to reason. I would definitely attempt to persuade them to allow vaping if they were fence sitting. That works, and it isn't militant.

I don't allow any random stranger to dictate my vaping behavior, especially when their demands are based on nothing but emotion or disinformation, or especially when they are not even demands but my own apprehensions, and I advocate that no none else does. Hardly militant and it never comes up anyway. Maybe I'd melt like an ice cube if a mean old woman attacked me with her umbrella for vaping.

Maybe I just come off as militant because I don't suffer fools gladly. I've noticed that about myself as I've gotten older. I used to be more tolerant of them. Maybe because we had more in common then.

 

[throatkick]

Some people have excellent critical thinking skills and are better qualified to assess a situation while some are better at taking that assessment and presenting it to others.

 

[MickeyRat]

Now, now...Militant? Moi??

No, I'm not militant. If I was militant, I'd argue with a property owner who unilaterally bans vaping. I wouldn't do that. Never have and can't imagine I ever would...

Now, now Mr. Sailorman...Read what I said.

I'm not as militant in presenting them but, I do agree with Sailorman's arguments...

I never said that you were militant in your public vaping. I'm pretty sure we are on the same page on that one. I know you've read my rules for public vaping and I think you were among those that gave them a like.

I said you were militant in your presentation of your arguments for public vaping. However, I'll agree that could be an extreme choice of words. Lessee confrontational? No, that's kinda like militant. Vehement? Okay, maybe vehement. That better?

 

[kwalka]

Do you have a reading comprehension deficiency? It is easy to make a statement like that but I don't see where it is supported with any specifics. He disagree's with comments that to him (and many others) lack any logic or common sense and backs it up with well thought out arguements. Making one sentence "slam" statements fits well if you are in 5th grade.

May I refer all to post #132

 

[IVapus]

There are a couple issues I haven't seen mentioned in this thread, and my apologies in advance if I missed it. I'd be interested in other folks thoughts on them as it relates to the topic of vaping in public, especially indoors.

The first is aroma(or stench as the case may be depending on one's perspective). I have a few flavors that I enjoy but vape only outdoors because they can really take over a room, for hours on end. Kretek from Tasty Vapor is one, but I have a half dozen or more others in the same category, some of them worse, like some pipe or cigar flavors, or other pungent tobaccos. To what extent should this be a factor in the appropriateness of vaping in public? I try to limit myself to fairly inocuous flavors or ones with pleasant aromas when in public which seems only reasonable.

The second is allergies. I've read that some folks are allergic to PG and thus vape only 100%VG. I don't know what other allergic reactions folks have reported and whether they even apply to second-hand vapor, so to speak, or only affect the vaper himself. My wife swears up and down that she has an allergic reaction(respiratory) to the vapor, so I don't vape indoors at home when she's anywhere in my vicinity. To be honest, I have had my doubts, but she does have allergic reactions to a lot of stuff, like many perfumes, etc., so I have to give her the benefit of the doubt on this one. So if, and it's a big if, second-hand vapor can affect others around you, to what extent does that factor into the equation.

 

[hulsey76]

When it is proven that my vapor is detrimental to others around me, then I'll change my attitude towards vaping in public. You see, contrary to what I have been accused of by SOME on these forums, I do care about the rights of others - you just have to prove to me that I am denying them any "right" first. Until then, I am shocked and ashamed that so many of us have adopted the attitude that they should hide themselves away and deny their own liberty with a slave mentality in order to keep from upsetting the system. Thank Almighty God that WASN'T the mindset in this nation 236 years ago.

 

[sailorman]

Now, now Mr. Sailorman...Read what I said.


...
I said you were militant in your presentation of your arguments for public vaping. However, I'll agree that could be an extreme choice of words. Lessee confrontational? No, that's kinda like militant. Vehement? Okay, maybe vehement. That better?

Just ribbin' ya.
Hmmm..., vehment?....Better. I'd prefer ummm..... passionate. Yeah, passionate. That's it. That's the ticket.

 

[MickeyRat]

There are a couple issues I haven't seen mentioned in this thread, and my apologies in advance if I missed it. I'd be interested in other folks thoughts on them as it relates to the topic of vaping in public, especially indoors.

The first is aroma(or stench as the case may be depending on one's perspective). I have a few flavors that I enjoy but vape only outdoors because they can really take over a room, for hours on end. Kretek from Tasty Vapor is one, but I have a half dozen or more others in the same category, some of them worse, like some pipe or cigar flavors, or other pungent tobaccos. To what extent should this be a factor in the appropriateness of vaping in public? I try to limit myself to fairly inocuous flavors or ones with pleasant aromas when in public which seems only reasonable.

The second is allergies. I've read that some folks are allergic to PG and thus vape only 100%VG. I don't know what other allergic reactions folks have reported and whether they even apply to second-hand vapor, so to speak, or only affect the vaper himself. My wife swears up and down that she has an allergic reaction(respiratory) to the vapor, so I don't vape indoors at home when she's anywhere in my vicinity. To be honest, I have had my doubts, but she does have allergic reactions to a lot of stuff, like many perfumes, etc., so I have to give her the benefit of the doubt on this one. So if, and it's a big if, second-hand vapor can affect others around you, to what extent does that factor into the equation.

I'm going to say that finding someone that gets an allergic reaction to PG from second hand vapor is going to be pretty rare case, if it exists at all. It is what's used in theatrical smoke after all and people got exposed to that in much higher concentrations than you'd ever get from second hand vapor in disco clubs for years. It's also used to prevent diseases like legionaires in hospital air conditioners. As for the smell, if stinking up the place should be banned, certain colognes would be off the market and people that don't bathe would be restricted to certain areas. However, I probably would avoid highly aromatic juices in public places just as I don't use certain colognes.