It's ALL about the....

[Oliver]

....politics of FDA, CDC and Campaign for tobacco Free Kids. The money's a minor part. Discuss!

OK, let me justify a little. Yes the money's a big deal - particularly at the state level. But the real story for me in ALL of this is that the FDA has it's own social history in which it spent 30 years trying to gain control over nicotine. It now has it (in a form that PMI would allow - right, money). But now it has control, guess what? It's having to play politics, and is about to do the opposite of good policy making because of the politics.

Who are the most influential voices? Forget Stan (his contribution is actually more problematic outside of the US, via the WHO, I would argue). No, it's Matt Myers at the CTFK and Tom Frieden at CDC (seriously, just look at the column inches). As long as they are able to paint vaping as the "next big thing to hook kids", vaping is doomed. Utterly, totally doomed. Flavors will be eradicated because they're the thing that entice kids. Once flavors have gone, vaping is gone - replaced by a small number of highly regulated unappealing products.

And, honestly, it's all ideological.

This is a book everyone should read: Smoke in Their Eyes. It's out of print, but you can get it for a buck on amazon.

In fact, until you've read it, I forbid you to tell me I'm wrong (kidding - say what you like).

OK, just dropped that bombshell for y'all. I'm off to the US for a few days to do some stuff.

 

[bnrkwest]

Have a great trip to US!!! The whole thing in US is just a mess, how are things going in UK for vapers??

 

[Eskie]

And an early welcome to the US!

I think you have it quite right. The politics involved are a Byzantine tale of entangled interests with a strong sense of moral superiority. There is nothing new to that when it comes to the FDA, or regulatory issues on the Federal level for that mater.

I wish I could find the quote from Zeller to link to for accuracy, but as best I can paraphrase when asked about vaping and harm reduction, he replied to the effect of "If I were a smoker, I would look at vaping to reduce harm to myself, but it's not about me, it's about public health". Talk about a multiple personality disorder.

Let's face it, tobacco, and subsequently nicotine, and the tobacco companies that produced it, have a horrible history in misleading folks about the risks of smoking and causing untold harm, illness, and death. Because of that tight link between tobacco and nicotine, bias is bound to pass over in judging vaping. The Tobacco Free Kids, the CDC, and the FDA all share that bias, a dogmatic commitment to the elimination of all tobacco products. There is no room in their argument for harm reduction, it's either all or none.

The problem those groups face is that if public health truly matters, these regs will accomplish the opposite, increasing cigarette consumption with resultant illness, and undermine efforts to reduce teen tobacco use, as once e-cigs are no linger an option, experimentation with actual tobacco will increase. And no, I'm not advocating teen use of e-cigs, just recognizing the real world consequences.

So all these groups believing they will improve public health through draconian regulation will only undermine the very goal they claim to have, improving public health. Good luck convincing them of that as it's based on an article of faith, rather than fact, and for lots of folks, faith beats facts far too often.

 

[WillyZee]

it's all about the money ... on a global scale.

Open tank Vaping is the path to eradicate tobacco ... it came out of nowhere and has blindsided BT, BP and BG.

too many have too much to lose ... hence the hijacking of Vaping.

 

[GaryInTexas]

I think it's all about social engineering and further developing their power grab on controlling every movement and choice a once free people had. It seems the more power they take from us the less we fight. Soon we will make no choices without first seeking permission.

 

[daviedog]

GaryInTexas
You are right.
In the last 10 yrs there has been a common ground to DC dictates.
You Are To Obey.
Money? The Govt can print all They want..

 

[ENAUD]

I see a broader issue, beyond vaping/tobacco/nicotine. Legislation intended to alter behaviors and choices of what people choose to do with their own bodies are futile. Free will cannot be legislated. The focus would be better spent on education, and harm reduction wherever appropriate, and the prohibitionists should be relegated back into the shadows, or the church of their choice.

The children argument is getting old and very tired, teens are actually young adults and experimentation is a natural growth phenomena. If they are prepared with actual truthful information, they will be better equipped to make wise decisions. When government policies are lies and untruths, there exists the potential for disbelieving things that are actually factual, and other harmful behaviors may be experimented with as a result.

This type of change in the way things are conducted or presented by policymakers seems unlikely in our present age, the more information we have available at such a rapid and voluminous pace, the more dumb things seem to be in the way our leaders are acting and regulating. It also appears that disinformation campaigns are more effective than they have ever been before. A house of lies will not last.

 

[TheRussianVaper]

Im sorry but the only good policy, is free market self regulation with independent review companies and customers who vote with their dollar, instead of un-elected officials forcing their opinions "regulations/laws" on citizens, with increased taxes to boot.

 

[DC2]

In before this is moved to the Outside.

 

[Robino1]

Let's bring this back to the vaping venue.

 

[crxess]

So...........Matt Myers thinks a Kid Sucking down a Juicy Juice is okay, but a Kid Vaping -0- nic Grape is a future Smoker and Adults should Suffer because the kids Parents or an older friend purchased it............saying Don't Smoke, use this?

Mr Myers, I am 62. I did not approve of their actions. It had nothing to do with the industry in any way - Beyond being a SAFER, Lower Harm Alternative to a Very Stupid Choice.

Utopia is two doors down to the Left

 

[Bad Ninja]

....politics of FDA, CDC and Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids. The money's a minor part. Discuss!

OK, let me justify a little. Yes the money's a big deal - particularly at the state level. But the real story for me in ALL of this is that the FDA has it's own social history in which it spent 30 years trying to gain control over nicotine. It now has it (in a form that PMI would allow - right, money). But now it has control, guess what? It's having to play politics, and is about to do the opposite of good policy making because of the politics.

Who are the most influential voices? Forget Stan (his contribution is actually more problematic outside of the US, via the WHO, I would argue). No, it's Matt Myers at the CTFK and Tom Frieden at CDC (seriously, just look at the column inches). As long as they are able to paint vaping as the "next big thing to hook kids", vaping is doomed. Utterly, totally doomed. Flavors will be eradicated because they're the thing that entice kids. Once flavors have gone, vaping is gone - replaced by a small number of highly regulated unappealing products.

And, honestly, it's all ideological.

This is a book everyone should read: Smoke in Their Eyes. It's out of print, but you can get it for a buck on amazon.

In fact, until you've read it, I forbid you to tell me I'm wrong (kidding - say what you like).

OK, just dropped that bombshell for y'all. I'm off to the US for a few days to do some stuff.

Oliver, the FDA is corrupt.
Not just morally.

Litterally ran by ex Pharma and BT executives.
Insider trading and backroom deals are not about ideology.

Think im exaggerating? This is all over the news right now.

Visium Insider-Trading Case Ensnares Former FDA Official

Google: FDA insider trading for an eye opener.

Its definitely all about the money.

 

[crxess]

Oliver, the FDA is corrupt.
Not just morally.

Litterally ran by ex Pharma and BT executives.
Insider trading and backroom deals are not about ideology.

Think im exaggerating? This is all over the news right now.

Visium Insider-Trading Case Ensnares Former FDA Official

Google: FDA insider trading for an eye opener.

Its definitely all about the money.

Hedge-Fund Manager Charged in Visium Insider-Trading Case Found Dead in Apparent Suicide

Suicide.......or ......................?

 

[Bad Ninja]

Hedge-Fund Manager Charged in Visium Insider-Trading Case Found Dead in Apparent Suicide

Suicide.......or ......................?

Good question.
He certainly had the goods to fry the entire FDA.

Notice how all eyes are on Visium instead of the gross misconduct and and criminal actions of the FDA.
Its just a footnote.

The FDA are straight up corrupt and should be defunded and disbanded.

 

[SuckMyVape]

As a Canadian and a baby vaper, I don't know all the politics behind the issue of FDA regulations, CDC rulings, etc. but I believe that the current oligarchical system which has crept in to American politics is the biggest issue of all. It keeps the real power in the hands of a few influential lobbying groups and takes it from the people. Of course I could be wrong and as I said, I don't know much. Just my two cents...one with the conversion I am curious to see how things will shake out here though (regulation-wise) as we seem to just blindly follow along with whatever the US does.

 

[DC2]

As a Canadian and a baby vaper, I don't know all the politics behind the issue of FDA regulations...

As someone who has watched it all for the last seven years...
I can tell you it's a fascinating case study...

One could easily write a book about the whole entire fiasco.

Thankfully, someone did a movie instead...
A Billion Lives

Here are some threads on the movie...
Search Results for Query: billion | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Ongeslepen]

It's about money... It's about control, the illusion of health. Keep us busy with everything else except about things what really matter..

I keep saying we are fighting the wrong fight here... Politics in it's core is corrupt, the capitalistic system we are living is destroying our planet (think of our planet as a space ship, would you neglect maintaining your spaceship?), economics should be about efficiency in resources, but it ain't. They make phones with rare materials and we throw them away every 1 to 2 years, because they were made to break and companies need to make profit. We suck the earth dry from oil and gas.

I can't see how any vote will change anything. We need to drastically change our ways, change our culture and our thinking, this sh*t needs to stop.

There was a time i did a lot for vaping, but i realize now it doesn't matter. Now the only fight i'm willing to fight is for the venus project (just google it and/or watch the documentary: Zeitgeist the movie it's on youtube).

Everything else is just simply not important enough. Because there will be no sustainable life left anymore if we keep doing what we are doing now.

 

[DC2]

Everything else is just simply not important enough. Because there will be no sustainable life left anymore if we keep doing what we are doing now.

Well, the end of the world is guaranteed in the Bible...
And we seem to be working hard at making that dream a reality...

Without, apparently, any need for divine intervention.

Resources do not last forever.
And make no mistake, it's all about resources.

Who has them, who doesn't.
Who wants them, who is willing to go to war over them.

This is mankind.
Always has been and always will be.

Maybe technology can save us though.
Or maybe we don't even deserve to be saved.

Hard to say sometimes.


I have no children, so I have no skin in this game.
I'm just along for the ride at this point.

 

[Tempesta]

No offense, but having no children isn't a reason not to fight. OUR lives are also important, and climate change, corrupt FDA officials, and the broken shreds of a democracy affect the people currently on this earth.

 

[crxess]

The FDA are straight up corrupt and should be defunded and disbanded.

Agreed on Conduct.
FDA had a purpose. Unfortunately like ALL things Government it was modified to fit Corporate and Political agendas.
CTP should never have been instituted. Agriculture should have control over all things Grown.

Fraud and Diversion Administration.