Janci Lindsay Posting a Comment on the need for further testing to validate the Safety of E-Juice

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Mariss716

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The report finds fault with the njoy study design, which used the FDA approved Nitrol as a control.

The tobacco-specific metabolites (TSNAs), which are metabolites of Nicotine and are known carcinogens (nitrosonicotine or NNN and methylnitrosamino NNK), were found in the e-liquid but in detectable BUT NOT measurable amounts. Keep in mind that some of these same metabolites are even found in cooked food, especially those involving combustion. It is unclear how at these detectable amounts, they would have an effect if inhaled. Although Nicotine does not cause cancer from any empirical research I have read, these impurities may have long term effects on those who inhale eCigs. The author's case in point from her post is that although eliquids may be used from FDA-approved ingredients for human consumption, are they safe for inhalation? Lung diseases in factory workers where these very chemicals are processed are a concern and merit study. Further toxicity studies should also use animal testing for this very reason. Yes, although PG is used in medical-device and prescription inhalers and even fog machines, there are other food-grade additives we use too. What is the bio-availaibility and affect of inhaling them?

And furthermore, what about nicotine delivery? How much are you inhaling per "puff?" When you buy your ejuice, does the vendor carry out testing on their batches, or do they "wing it?" The NJOY cartridges did not deliver a consistent amount of nicotine between cartridges, unlike the FDA-approved inhaler Nitrol.

For the FDA, these are all un answered questions that if eCigs are to be regulated as nicotine delivery devices, will have to be addressed. It's a double-edged sword. Do we want them to be studied and legitimatized? Or continue to watch poorly designed study after study, and fear mongering article after article, pointing to these unknowns and scaring potential converts into staying SMOKERS, and it is WELL documented that the act of cigarette combustion leads to a myriad of health risks, both short term and long term from the 4,000 plus (including MANY carcinogenic) chemicals present.

As the author concludes, "The detection of trace and non-measurable levels of TSNAs and tobacco-associated impurities in the liquid, rather than the vapor phase of NJOY’s products, at levels that are many orders of magnitude below conventional cigarettes, and at or below FDA-approved nicotine containing products, should be considered as indicators of the regulatory acceptability of the NJOY
products rather than reason for concern."

The author is not stating that in spite of what is in her opinion are indicators of regulatory acceptability, that eCigs are "safe" and her anaysis of the FDA's NJOY study should not be construed as such. THAT is the point of her above post. However, her report gives actionable recommendations for design and focus in future studies to further demonstrate such human safety.

Right now you can see how dismissive the FDA is of the relative safety of eCigs (which we all find rather baffling compared to the alternative of SMOKING), but put on their hat for a moment; they are all about empiricism. We need studies, and unfortunately strong lobbies, if we are going to gain legitimacy and no be lumped together with combustible forms of tobacco delivery.

For further reading if any of my fellow ECFers are interested, here are the known carcinogens found in cigarette smoke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cigarette_smoke_carcinogens A few of these metabolites/impurities were found in detactable i.e. trace but not measurable amounts in the NJOY liquid.

My own thought too is that eCig and liquid manufacturers should be developing their own standards of testing to "police themselves" and to further legitimatize what is growing far beyond a cottage industry now.
 
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EddieAdams

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rofl I happened to scroll down to the references and saw this

"Wu, J., Joza, P., Sharifi, M., Rickett, W. Lauterbach, J. 2008. Quantitative Method for the
Analysis of Tobacco-Specific Nitrosamines in Cigarette Tobacco and Mainstream Cigarette
Smoke by Use of Isotope Dilution Liquid Chromatography Tandem Mass Spectrometry. .....
Chem., 80:1341-1345."

is the analysis ....
or the cigarette smoke ingested anally
or what

Please inform me Janci Lindsay.
....., I've been doing it wrong...
 

jlindsay

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Well I see from the posts that follwed mine that I could have been more clear and for that I apologize. Thank you Marris for clarifying what I did not. Yes, they do actually make rats "smoke" it can be done and was done for years to study the toxicity of traditional cigs. yes these studies did show toxicity of many ingredients used in trad cigs. Of course it takes a while for the more severe effects to manifest. I posted what I did because I was disturbed at the way the report seemed to be used by some companies as an endorsment for their products and an implication of safety. I have no idea what is in the e-juice of most of these companies' products and my guess is neither do most vapers and maybe not even the manufacturers or suppliers. "Artificial flavoring" or "natural flavoring'" listed as ingredients does not describe the chemical that was used to make that flavor. For instance diacetyl as well as it's subsitute 2,3 pentadione (butter flavoring)have been shown to cause a severe form of lung fibrosis in rat inhlalation studies. Furfural which is used in some almond flavoring can also cause pulmonary toxicity. These are both recognized as safe to eat or GRAS by the FDA. Toxicity testing does need to be done even for these products. I don't mean to scare anyone. I just think further testing needs to be done to make sure these products are safe and are using flavorngs that have been shown to be safe for inhalation. Currently these studies are being doen by vapors themselves in a manner. This will probably be my last post so please don't take it badly if I don't respond. I would encourage consumers to demand to know chemically what is in their e-juice and then demand the safety studies. It sounds from one post that at least one study has been done. That is great I would love to see it. The reason that I posted in the first place was to let people know that my report was not a safety endorsement and should not be used that way. I do apologize if I was unclear. Janci
 

jlindsay

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I tried to respond to your messages but could not i don't know if I have that provelage. Up until just a second ago I was denied access to replying to any of the posts following mine. I don't know if it's a new user glitch or someone thought I was just being malicious. I appreciate the understanding and wish you the best of luck in your own research.
 

Mariss716

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I tried to respond to your messages but could not i don't know if I have that provelage. Up until just a second ago I was denied access to replying to any of the posts following mine. I don't know if it's a new user glitch or someone thought I was just being malicious. I appreciate the understanding and wish you the best of luck in your own research.

The limitations are merely because you are a new user. As you post more your privileges open up. Welcome to ECF and thank you for sharing this. Like many participants on this site I am passionate about vaping. It has changed my life and transitioned me away from the dangers of smoking. At the same time, yes I would like to see more evidence of what I am inhaling, and I would like to see the industry gain legitimacy. There are more short term and long term medical studies underway, but we must be critical of how they are designed, and of the conclusions we can draw from them.
 

Vapoor eyes er

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For instance diacetyl as well as it's subsitute 2,3 pentadione (butter flavoring)have been shown to cause a severe form of lung fibrosis in rat inhlalation studies.

One month after beginning to vape I realized the dangers of the certain ingredients and chose to only buy Ejuice that did not contain the above ingredients. Most, if not all vendors up here, state they do not use diacetyl in their Ejuice.
Yes I strongly agree that further serious in depth studies need to be done but there seems to be a problem with all vendors getting together and doing this in unison. As for the safety of vaping as it stands I have researched and try to use juices that are safe...to the best of my knowledge. As for flavors I now vape flavorless with the occasional addition of menthol. Began @ 36 mg and am now down to 2 mg and am hoping one day I will be vape and analog free.
Is vaping 100% safe- no but my GP, Surgeon, Dentist and Dental Hygienist are elated that I have quit smoking and have noticed the obvious health benefits.
 
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Racehorse

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Dr. Lindsay, is this you:
Janci C. Lindsay, Ph.D. - Rimkus Consulting Group, Inc.

If yes, obviously you have impressive credentials in pulmonary toxicology .

The problem is that out here on the internet, anybody can sign in as jlindsay as a username.

(would be great if TPTB at ECF could verify/vet somebody posting as Janci since if this isn't her it is somewhat troubling that somebody could just hop on here and "impersonate" her. )


I don't think anyone here has said that eliquid is 100% safe. Vaping is considered harm reduction, i.e. less harmful than smoking cigarettes. I do believe that is true and will be proven to be true. However, putting anything except fresh air into one's lungs seems like it would always carry some risk, and I feel I can say that with absolutely zero scientific expertise....it's just horse sense.:)

I realize that GRAS rating applies to injesting, not inhaling. For that reason, some of us vape flavorless liquid, or DIY with as little flavor as possible, and/or don't vape certain flavors. I myself will not vape "creamy / buttery" type flavors, or even flavors that are lung irritants such as cinnamon. Conversely, other vapers believe that is silly. I say each to their own......treat your own body how you like, just don't tell me how to treat mine. :)

In the end, many or most of us are fully aware that no long term clinical trials have been done, so we have taken whatever risks exist, small or large, while continuing to vape. I am using vaping as a smoking cessation tool, so it is a means to an end for me, and I am willing to assume some risk for the short period of time I expect to be vaping.

I do agree with you though.....consumers really should demand studies. It would be nice to have that information well before the regulatory agencies step in, so there is more to "show them". I see many of the flavoring companies are doing more testing. Unfortunately, many of the eliquid vendors don't know a lot about the flavorings, other than what the flavoring companies tell them. The end user knows even less, since many vendors can't, or won't or don't give us the information we need even about pg/vg ratios.

That is why I research my eliquid vendors very carefully. Not by the advertising copy written on their websites, but by actually calling them and asking questions.

I do feel safer using vendors that seem keen to answer my questions, not just take my $$$.

The FDA hasn't proved anything in any bullet-proof way. But neither have we. I think at this juncture, that is the most honest thing that can be said.

Personally, my gut feeling is that ecigs are not too dangerous at all, but further clincal trials seem like a good idea. In the meantime, FDA has no ammunition to ban unless they are basing it on tests that weren't even carried out properly.
 

The Ocelot

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I would like to add that if the FDA bans vaping and still doesn't ban smoking........I would be EXTREMELY ......!

This was the close of my comments to the FDA:

I do not feel the products that have enabled us to quit smoking tobacco should be regulated to the point they are unattainable and/or ineffective. If that should happen, I imagine I will (legally and ironically) go buy a pack of Marlboros and a bottle of Jack Daniels and celebrate my government’s decision to protect me.
 

Caridwen

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Dr. Lindsay, is this you:
Janci C. Lindsay, Ph.D. - Rimkus Consulting Group, Inc.

If yes, obviously you have impressive credentials in pulmonary toxicology .

The problem is that out here on the internet, anybody can sign in as jlindsay as a username.

(would be great if TPTB at ECF could verify/vet somebody posting as Janci since if this isn't her it is somewhat troubling that somebody could just hop on here and "impersonate" her. )

We moderated the thread until we were able to ascertain that it was Dr. Linsay posting. I hope she will reconsider and post again.
 

Nicholette

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I would like to add that if the FDA bans vaping and still doesn't ban smoking........I would be EXTREMELY ......!

I'll go back to smoking in public places. Finding these idiots and blowing nasty smoke into their faces, you do not have to be indoors to get a big whiff of second hand smoke so no fines!
 

oldsoldier

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Let me make it clear that ECFs position on Vaping is that it is not "safe". If you inhale anything other than air you are placing yourself at risk and even if you only inhale air you may still be at risk , especially if you live in someplace like the Los Angeles Basin.

As has been pointed out there are no clinical trials to indicate the safety of Vaping. What ECF does is provide the information as we find it so you can make an informed decision for yourself. We support attempts to scientifically prove the safety of vaping, but we are making no claims as to its safety.

Why? Firstly because of liability issues. Secondly when you start talking about health benefits you are walking down a slippery slope that can allow FDA or other governmental regulatory agencies jumping in and regulating us in a manner equivalent to the drug industry. Nobody wants that right now because it will effectively kill vaping because of the huge costs involved. Big Pharma will run us out of business if we end up in their playground.

My personal opinion is that I feel the risks associated with vaping are much less than those associated with smoking, especially of you choose your liquids carefully (or DIY )avoiding known problems (like diacetyl). Anecdotally I'll say I feel healthier and better than I did when I was smoking, but anecdotal evidence is just that - it isn't clinically proven fact. I personally believe that vaping has to be healthier than burning tobacco and paper and inhaling the thousands of combustion compounds, but that is just me, your mileage may vary :)
 
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