Jim the doc on this forum.

[paladinx]

It seems we have a doctor here that people confide in with health and safety questions. Im pretty much a newbie here, so excuse my post, but I am just giving my honest first reactions.

I kind of felt like, oh a doctor in an E-cig forum, almost like a ploy to make people feel better about e-smoking so all the manufacturers here can put peoples anxieties to rest. I dont know if that is true or not, but he seems to be very pro e smoking. so that has me thinking
regards

 

[CaSHMeRe]

paladinx ...

this *doctor* is one of the oldest and most respected members of this board. His knowledge, background, history, and lastly help to other members has been invaluable ... No one plays the ... "Well since we have a doctor and he is doing tests and says esmoking is great" line ... In fact, I don't think I have ever even seen these words said.

At this point ... he's the only person in the field doing research. Is it nice to see a doctor advocate esmoking over analogues ... sure .... but is a ploy being played out to fool people into esmoking currently going on ? ... certainly not in my eyes ...

 

[TropicalBob]

Dr. Jim Loi is one of the neatest humans you could ever hope to meet, read or associate with. Check out his posts in the Health section. Look at his vacation pictures in the Community section. No posts command the instant respect that his do. The reason is his history with e-smoking: setting up his own trial in Malaysia, paying for the e-smoking equipment provided to patients, and reporting his findings. But, no, he's not a person to send a "my nose is sniveling, what should I do?" question.

Read him. You'll understand.

 

[dc2k08]

I think he is impeccably authentic. call me a spade if I'm wrong.

 

[jimldk]

Hi paladinx....
Sigh..yeah, how I wish I can be paid by all the manufacturers here....I have already spent more than I can afford from my life savings (and also my credit card bills) to do this research...Yes, I am pro e smoking(initially I am not mind you...) because I am a smoker too.....2 packs of 20 white sticks of both pleasure and death a day...

I tried out the controversial ecig at my own risk too...I think I have "smoked" more than everyone else here..I am my own Guinea pig....nuff said....

I wish I can rope in more doctors here but a lot of my colleagues remained skeptical....I am facing a lone battle here in Asia...it is not nice to be sidelined and ridiculed by others when you are on your own....but I got to carry on....I know it has many unknowns and it is still an infant crawling stage(I meant the ecig tech) but if no medical professionals takes it up and studied it indepth then all will be lost...sofar without a single big studies done on it, all has been pointing the smoking end of the gun at it and says "It is Dangerous"...yeah...then I am condemned to be at the smokers end....please...be tolerant...I did not gain anything from my trials but ridicules and sarcasm....the witch hunt is on...and guess who is on the line for the perfect finger pointing.......

 

[paladinx]

Like I said you know, im a newbie. A ..... in the e smoking world, I was just telling people my newbie first reaction of seeing a couple of your posts. Nothing personal at all, I dont know much about you or what you have done. The reason why i even posted that remarks is to convey the almost like paranoid feeling I been getting with the e-smoking. Which makes no sense really since I smoke about 35 real cigs a day and that is known to kill people.

I just feel like, in this life, you can never have your cake and eat it too. imagine being able to smoke, and it not being that bad for you and you find enjoyment in it? no way lol. Thats too good to be true probably lol. and when i see someone who says they are a doctor saying reassuring things, my skepticism jumps up like Ohh wait maybe this is all bs.



You know I think what your doing is not dumb jim. E-smoking can be the next huge thing if it is proven safe. people enjoy smoking period. They do. before all the health concerns about smoking, everyone smoked. no one cared about the smell even. It was enjoyable to most. Just in recent times people are not smoking because of the health implications. You take those health concerns away from the equation and people would start smoking again mainstream.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Just want to add my endorsement of Jim Loi. I regularly go to his member page to check out anything he posts in case I missed it in the normal forum view. I don't have many heroes left but he's one of 'em. There is very little hard data from the medical establishment and Dr Loi is taking a hit for all of us.

Hope we make the international e-smoking conference one day cos I'd love to shake his hand.

Emp

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

@ Paladin

I had exactly the same 'this is too good to be true' reaction to e-cigs when I started back in June (it was a lot easier to read the entire archive of this forum back then). I only wanted to get around the UK smoking ban in boozers so I pretty much ignored all the miracle cure claims. One month later I was smoke free after 25 years of pack a day smoking. I'm still not over how effortless it was. I even smoked a hot one on the three month line to see what the effect would be. Nada. E-juice tastes better, is all. However, we're in the crazy position of suppliers not being able to say 'this works' because there is NO proof, and we do not know what the long-term effect of PG (or VG) inhalation is.

Me, I believe my body. It keeps on telling me what a great idea this was. If my head falls off somewhere down the line, well, shít - evrything's a risk, isn't it?

Emp

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

I keep getting 'Oh, one more thing" type vibes. Not really on topic but a response to paladin's "people enjoy smoking" line. Yup, I do or did enjoy smoking. I enjoy beer, fatty foods, sloth, gluttony and other deadly sins. I don't enjoy being told this is bad for me. Like, ya think?

As Rumpole of the Bailey sez:

There's no pleasure on earth that's worth sacrificing for the sake of an extra five years in the geriatric ward of the Sunset Old People's Home, Weston-Super-Mare.

I kinda live by that.

Emp

 

[paladinx]

well for me personally, I enjoy cigarette smoking. The only reason why I am looking to try this new gizmo, is because of health concerns. if this stuff is just as bad, or even worse then smoking, then its quite pointless for me. I rather just continue smoking cigarettes.

My other question is, Ok we do not know the long term effects, but do we know the short term effects? I really dont plan on smoking vapor for life. I just want to use it for a little while. maybe a few months. I wonder if even a few months of e smoking is dangerous

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

That has been a topic of some concern over the past few months. These threads address the issue. Not clinically conclusive but they terminated my concerns about inhaling PG.

Emp

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-germ-killing-vapor.html?highlight=inhalation

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-pg-perhaps-not-great-unknown-after-all.html

 

[vodkaniac]

I'm new as well. I've read "most" of the doctor's posts - and been quite impressed. I believe he is genuinely concerned with this issue. And also genuinely excited that we may have stumbled on the perfect harm-reduction nicotine delivery device. We tend to forget that physicians are prone to the same foibles as we mere mortals - including nicotine addiction. I personally know a gynecologist who, to his utter shame, is unable to rid himself of the vice of cigarette smoking. He is, otherwise, a most competent physician.

For me, I'm leaning away from e-cigs. My situation is a little different from most, in that I had been smoke-free for a year-and-a-half before picking up an e-cig. I was looking at nicotine as a last-ditch effort to address an episode of depression/anxiety. The nicotine has helped. NRT is not enough to have a therapeutic effect. Smoking just wasn't an option. I found that e-cigs and snus did the trick. Now, I'm leaning towards snus alone as my delivery system. E-cigs just have that problematic X-factor because of the lack of long-term studies. If, however, I were looking to break the analog habit (as most here seem to be,) then e-cigs would be the PERFECT vehicle. There is no doubt in my mind (largely do to Dr. Jim's research and the research of others here on the forum,) that e-cigs are far, far, far less hazardous than traditional cigarettes. But, again, there is that X factor, that question mark of what exactly is the long-term impact. With snus, that question has been answered by hundreds of years of Swedish use and plenty of scientific studies. So, since I don't have a "habit" (hand-to-mouth, visual feedback, etc) to break, why begin it anew?

But, on the other hand, them e-ciarettes sure are fun! And I like being a part of this community.

Lastly, I'll add here that my time with e-cigs has (I believe) caused me to have several episodes of unsightly teenage blemishes (the angry red kind that take a week or more to heal,) as well as given me a chronic cough. Even with that, I would choose e-cigs over traditionals in heartbeat. I hope this adds to the discussion. This forum is an invaluable tool, and you are all treasures. - Grant (now feeling sorry for having chosen such a silly screen name)

 

[SuziQ]

Loving your name actually. Love Vodka, especially bison grass vodka (Zubrowka) - fantastic stuff with apple juice!

 

[vodkaniac]

Apple Juice. Apple Juice? Apple Juice! Dear God, how could I have never considered this? That's brilliant.

 

[jimldk]

The X factor....always there whenever a new thing is created by humans...nothing is perfect..everything carries a risk...use it in moderation it will be fine..abuse it..then the X factor emerge....

When I started this clinical trial, it's main target was to find out the clinical efficiency and the dangers lurking within....I know there will be a X factor...only thing is when and what and how?....sometimes I wish this device is created by a known Big Pharmaceutical company rather than by the Chinese electronic gadgets ppl..it will makes thing easier then(still the looming X factor).... I changed my directive after realising it can't be a full cessation therapy..it can only assist to curb and satisfy up to a certain degree of acceptance...some have achieved full cessation with little effort while others struggle with it's imperfections...and I have more or less found most of the imperfections...(that's the reason for E-Turbo)...deliver the correct dose then deal with the side effects...

please note that this while seemingly the answer for most smokers , it does not fits everyone's criteria...(especially the Health ministry.)

I do not encourage the use of this device to non smokers who wants to start smoking, I do not recommends it for new "virgins" who wants to begin smoking...never....
It use and functions remains remains strictly for existing smokers and ex-smokers who relapse.

There is still a lot of unknown both in short terms and long term...like I said before, an indepth detailed studies need to be done..so far no one(doctors/medical side) willing to be even linked to this yet and those who does have already promptly put in their negative remarks without even a proper run through..they are quick to judge and hammer down that nail into the coffin before it has even raised off the ground..such is the prejudice and the amount of paranoia that they harbour, I doubt it will ever raised the awareness of this new device to any level of desired acceptance among the medical field as well the general public....sad to say, it will takes years before it goes mainstream....

paladinx....of course I realised the potential of this device and it's financial impact for making huge money making thing(that was why it is being created for by the Chinese)...but you misunderstood my intentions...I was a smoker and I want to stop smoking , I have tried everything but this is my best bet yet,and of course I want to know it's effects and side effects ...so get more data and involve as many smokers as possible...collective involvement you can say that....and If I am not greedy than spread it out to the people out there,share and diversify...and of course improvise.....since there is no one willing to do so in my field of work...

 

[Fedor]

The doc is da man....genuine in every respect..

 

[jimldk]

The doc is da man....genuine in every respect..

Thanks Fedor..always supportive for me...

yep, I am Da man....also will be "the man" if anything goes wrong..wish I wasn't....I started the whole ecig thing in Malaysia..and I will bear the full consequence/responsibilities if anything goes wrong ..the ministry is just waiting for any mistakes /mishap from my side..and point out to "the Man"...sigh....

 

[paladinx]

" answered by hundreds of years of Swedish use and plenty of scientific studies. "

what do the swedish say about the effects of constant nicotine, I think I read something that says their blood pressure is higher in Sweden or something among snus users. who knows. But Probably snus is safer then E-smoking, but Im not even sure about that one.

So let me get this straight. There is nothing toxic in e-smoking correct? But we are not sure how our body will metabolize the ingredients, and what impact it might have on other organs of the body. Say kidneys for example. But as far as toxicity goes and just analyzing the basic, raw ingredients. What would common sense along with a knowledge of the ingredients suggest? A lot of you here have stated one company had a thorough test, and they concluded that it was relatively safe compared to smoking. That is a big claim they are making. They must at least have toxicology reports or something to make that statement.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Nicotine is toxic. As far as we know the remaining ingredients are GRAS. The biggie is PG - all findings on that tend to be based on eating the stuff rather than inhaling it. The links in my last post were to some of the discussion. It wandered around though - someone raised a good point about inhaling melted cartridge filling

We do know some details, for instance PG is metabolised into lactic acid.

Dr Murray Laugesen of New Zealand did the study you mention, and you could find links to it by searching his name here or on Google. It was funded by Ruyan but the doc drew his own conclusions. I believe in his independence but the source of funding will inevitably lead some people to doubt this.

What it really comes down to (for me) is harm reduction. Maybe lethal vs definite stone killer. I was a pack a day man for decades, now it's just e-cigs. Am I concerned about the unknowns? Definitely. But I was more concerned about the knowns...

Emp

 

[paladinx]

I agree. There has not been long term tests on inhalation of PG, and other chemicals found in E-smoking. But isn't there a logical guess at least? How pg reacts with lungs long term might be unknown to some degree, But as some have said here, there lung function improved. If it was doing damage, why would it improve. The other part is PG might be getting absorbed into the blood stream from the lung. But if PG is considered non toxic when people at it, is that because of how the stomach breaks down the chemical? as opposed to putting it directly into the blood stream? Or do they mean that the chemical itself inside the body is non toxic, If thats the case, Then im assuming now matter how it enters the body, Stomach, lung, syringe, that it would only be dependent on the dosage we are getting to its danger.