Juice Suppliers in Canada Closing Down Due to New Legislation

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BCB

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Looks like Canada found a way to put their juice suppliers out of business. I'm not real sure but it looks like they cannot sell juice with nicotine in it because e-cigs are drug delivery devices. If they get changed to "tobacco products" the juice manufacturers would have to apply for a special license to sell.


Juicy Clear is closing down - Official Post

If anyone knows more about this than I have been able to figure out, I'd like to know. Thanks.

(Part of the reason for confusion is an April Fool's joke in the Canadian forum that later turned out to be true--sad, sad, but true)
 
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Lil-Stewie

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 25, 2011
80
1
London Ontario Canada
No no orders have been issued but rather some e liquid suppliers appear to have been contacted by the HC inspectorate who is politely advising them to stop selling.

Here's the advising letter part.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/canada-forum/175827-vapables-no-more-nic.html#post2943068

One could say go blow to them but they have the ability to escalate in non compliance situations as is spelled out here.

Compliance and Enforcement Policy (POL-0001) [Health Canada, 2005]

Sucks to be us :oops:


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Edit: I guess our situation is similar to your FDA situation in that Health Canada says an e-cig is a drug delivery device, the drug delivered of course is nicotine and nicotine is a controlled schedule F drug in Canada. There is a we say you say debate with regards to the schedule F part because if the nicotine dosage unit is less than 4mg and administered by an oral inhalation device said nicotine does not fall under the scope of that schedule F drug part.

We need lawyers and industry support :(
 
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Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Looks like you Canadians are going to need to lobby for your legislature to create a law that declares electronic smoking devices to be modified risk alternatives to smoking.

First, however, you may need to educate them on the concept of tobacco harm reduction. They probably are under the false impression that all tobacco and nicotine products cause equal amounts of lung disease, heart disease, and cancer. So the stated purpose for the law you are seeking would be to improve public health by reducing the toll of diseases caused by inhaling smoke.
 

rachelcoffe

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 25, 2010
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Toronto
Hey everyone. For the record, no...there is no "new legislation" in Canada re: e-cigs, e-juice, nicotine etc. There isn't even a Parliament at the moment; it's been dissolved, and a federal election campaign is under way. On May 2nd, Canada votes. But legally speaking, absolutely nothing has changed re: vaping. What has happened, is Health Canada has suddenly initiated a massive offensive effort to harrass, threaten & shut down Canadian suppliers.

So - we will shortly be initiating a class-action suit against Health Canada, because we cannot & should not tolerate their unlawful actions any longer. The law is already on our side, and it's high time that we demand that it be upheld. Specifically:

- Health Canada is factually misclassifying e-cigs & e-juice as "health products" (despite the fact that e-cigs & e-juice are not marketed as such, and do not make any therapeutic claims), for the purpose of unlawfully preventing their market authorization.

- Health Canada is outright lying when it says that the nicotine content in e-juice is subject to Schedule F of the Canadian Food & Drug regulations (because it isn't!). There are several exemptions from Schedule F re: nicotine, which very clearly includes the e-juice with nicotine used by we vapers.

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The government moved the page containing Schedule F recently; here is the current link.
Food and Drug Regulations

Or you can copy & paste the link text at your leisure, below:
laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._870/page-502.html

Nicotine is exempt from Schedule F classification (as in it's legal, you don't need a prescription etc) - specifically, as follows. I'm quoting from the link above, in navy blue to distinguish it, and with bold emphasis on (d):


Nicotine and its salts, for human use, except

(a) in natural substances;

(b) in the form of a chewing gum containing 4 mg or less of nicotine per dosage unit;

(c) in the form of a transdermal patch with a delivery rate of 22 mg or less of nicotine per day;

(d) in a form to be administered orally by means of an inhalation device delivering 4 mg or less of nicotine per dosage unit; or

(e) in the form of a lozenge containing 4 mg or less of nicotine per dosage unit

Nicotine et ses sels, destinés à l’usage humain, sauf :

a) dans les substances naturelles;

b) sous forme de gomme à mâcher contenant 4 mg ou moins de nicotine par unité posologique;

c) sous forme de timbre cutané ayant un taux de libération de 22 mg ou moins de nicotine par jour;

d) sous une forme destinée à être administrée par voie orale au moyen d’un inhalateur libérant 4 mg ou moins de nicotine par unité posologique;

e) sous forme de pastille contenant 4 mg ou moins de nicotine par unité posologique



English and French, there you go.

None of us are getting anywhere near 4mg of nicotine in a drag on our PV's. A drag is a dose. Each time you take a drag, you receive a dose. You take two drags, you receive two doses.

(And lest anyone require clarification on that point: consider the following. When you take a pill, that's a dose of whatever's in that pill. It only takes one pill to deliver a dose. A whole bottle full of pills is not a dose: it's a bottle containing many doses.

In the same way, all it takes is one drag on your PV to deliver a dose of nicotine to your system...understand? One drag literally equals one dose to your body. Two drags equals two doses. And so forth. So I hope that clears up any lingering questions in people's minds. A cartomizer full of e-juice is no more "one dose" than a bottle of pills is "one dose.")


In other words, the nicotine a Canadian vaper is enjoying in their e-juice is legal. Health Canada is flat-out lying when it tells suppliers that it falls under Schedule F. They are violating Canadian law by attempting to restrict a substance that in this case is exempt from restriction. And they're doing it while Parliament is dissolved and all our MP's are temporarily focused on their respective election campaigns, rather than constituent complaints and issues. Are you angry? You should be.

Should you settle for being angry? No. That's why we've begun to seek out a good legal team in order to initiate a class-action lawsuit against Health Canada. We won't rest until that's done. This is going to be a big case, and a big win - for vapers. Because the law is on our side. HC's lies & bully tactics are just that; they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

We - will - win.



HC is the ape.
 
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Dondlelinger

Full Member
Apr 2, 2011
53
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Boonies
First, however, you may need to educate them on the concept of tobacco harm reduction. They probably are under the false impression that all tobacco and nicotine products cause equal amounts of lung disease, heart disease, and cancer. So the stated purpose for the law you are seeking would be to improve public health by reducing the toll of diseases caused by inhaling smoke.

They know what it does they just want to tax it is the real reason
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Actually, it was Dr. Murray Laugesen of Health New Zealand who conducted the testing of the liquid and vapor and prounced it "harmless, inhaled or exhaled." Dr. Phillips is a Tobacco Harm Reduction expert / proponent. His group conducted the survey of users, with assistance from James Dunworth, that we often quote from.

Here are some links for you:

James Dunworth's Blog: - Ashtray Blog: An Electronic Cigarette Blog
Tobacco Harm Reduction Web site: Tobaccoharmreduction.org
Tobacco Harm Reduction News & Opinion: Tobacco Harm Reduction: News & Opinions
Survey of E-cigarette Consumers: http://tobaccoharmreduction.org/wpapers/011v1.pdf
Health New Zealand:
Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinEcigBenchtopHandout.pdf

Happy reading!

And how dare I forget: http://www.casaa.org
 
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Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Trust me it was a lot more disconcerting two years ago when the FDA started stealing incoming shipments, and then held that FOBS press conference that has made 90% of the word believe that e-cigarettes will give you cancer faster than hanging around a meltdown at the nuclear power plant, or drop you dead in your tracks from antifreeze poisoning.

It was a lot of pins and needles back then. There were long threads about "Do we need to stock up on supplies." And this was back in the days when you need to carry at least one, possible 2 or 3, spare batteries with you because they didn't hold a charge very well.

I happened to be sitting at my computer at the moment SunVaporer posted Judge Leon's ruling and let out a whoop that probably made half the neighborhood jump.

But yes, it is disconcerting, even now because we are not out of the woods yet, not by a long shot. Welcome to the forum DeaRae. Join in, get active, and you can help keep them legal along with the rest of us.
 

DeaRae

Full Member
Apr 4, 2011
36
0
Wisconsin
Thanks for the welcome! Even though I am just getting into this I already feel that it will have a positive impact on my life and hate the thought that through govn't meddling we may lose it in some way or it may wound up being regulated to death. I definitely want to learn more and see how I can get involved. Already looked at the CASAA site and want to spend some more time there. It's definitely only through involvement that we can work to ensure that we don't lose this one.
 

kristin

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Aug 16, 2009
10,448
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(d) in a form to be administered orally by means of an inhalation device delivering 4 mg or less of nicotine per dosage unit;

It seems you would have to establish a "dosage unit" in e-cigs and that would exclude selling bottles of liquid - cartridges only and they would have to be 4mg carts?

I don't think this is anything new, either. I distinctly recall that nicotine in e-cigs hasn't been allowed in Canada since at least 2009 (which is why the vendors there mostly advertise non-nicotine e-cigs) and they issued a cease and desist along with the consumer warning: Health Canada Advises Canadians Not to Use Electronic Cigarettes - Health Canada Advisory 2009-03-27

Persons importing, advertising or selling electronic cigarette products in Canada must stop doing so immediately. Health Canada is providing information to interested stakeholders on how to apply for the appropriate market authorizations and establishment licences: To All Persons Interested in Importing, Advertising or Selling Electronic Smoking Products in Canada - Health Canada Notice 2009-03-27

Sounds like they are just now enforcing it.

While I have read claims that non-nicotine e-cigs are OK, I haven't found any documentation to back that up. All of the Health Canada documents make no distinction between nicotine and non-nicotine.
 

rachelcoffe

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 25, 2010
568
230
Toronto
kristin, with all respect we would strongly argue that a drag on a PV constitutes a dose. And two drags constitutes two doses, etc. A dose of far less than 4mg of nicotine, we might add. Which means the nicotine in e-juice is (per explicit definition in Schedule F) exempted from Schedule F of the Canadian Food & Drug regulations. At the standard nic levels we are consuming, and in the method with which it being consumed, it is physically impossible to take in more than 4mg of nicotine in one dose.

A bottle of e-juice, or a cartomizer full of e-juice, is no more a single dose than a bottle of pills is a single dose. These all contain numerous doses of their respective product.

Most people only use 3 or 4 drops of e-juice on their atomizer, which takes a good number of drags to consume before it's time for a few new drops. A cartomizer filled with 20 or more drops can take dozens of drags to consume, over the course of several hours.

When you take a drag on your PV, that delivers a dose of nicotine to your system. Take two, and it delivers two. That's a scientific, irrefutable fact. Any other interpretation would have us facing a very unusual & illogical legal redefinition of what constitutes a dose, in the broadest sense of the term. Such could & doubtless would have broad repercussions (as a strange new precedent) in many areas, including the realm of pharmaceuticals & foodstuffs.

So yes; we will strongly argue the point, and remain confident that our view is the correct one, legally speaking.
 
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