"They do emit second-hand vapor, what we found is its in levels much less than what you would get from traditional cigarettes and conventional combustible cigarettes. However, we still get various toxins and carcinogens, such as acidalahyde, formaldahyde, acrilene, one of which is used as an insecticide," said Dr. Mark Travers, of the Roswell Park Cancer Institute. - See more at: Erie County Debates Banning E-Cigs in Smoke-Free Zones - Time Warner Cable News
Good memory - Dr. F reported on this found they were using a Twist at 4.8V's on a top coil CE4 with 10 second draws where you are going to get into a 'dry hit' situation. In the comments someone summed it up - stay at 4.0Volts or below, use VG diluted with at least 10% H2O - no acrolein, no formaldehyde, no metals from coil, mesh, etc.
The other study on 'metals' - there were metals and other contaminants in the air but the study attributed it to the ecigs of course.
Good memory - Dr. F reported on this found they were using a Twist at 4.8V's on a top coil CE4 with 10 second draws where you are going to get into a 'dry hit' situation. In the comments someone summed it up - stay at 4.0Volts or below, use VG diluted with at least 10% H2O - no acrolein, no formaldehyde, no metals from coil, mesh, etc.
The other study on 'metals' - there were metals and other contaminants in the air but the study attributed it to the ecigs of course.
Precisely.
And please note that no human being would ever actually vape this way or inhale this stuff, because "dry hit" tastes terrible.
Compare:
heat oil in a skillet until it smokes. Throw in a steak. "Fry" the steak in the smoking hot oil until it is completely black. (Take care not to burn down your house in the process).
Make analysis of the completely burnt steak. Find unhealthy substances in the completely burnt steak.
Give out press release with the headline "Dangerous substances found in steak!"
Ban steaks.
- - Take care not to mention that the situation of your "experiment" was totally removed from anything that would happen in reality.
- - Take double care not to mention that no human being on earth would ever fry a steak in this way or consume such a completely burnt steak.
I don't think we should dismiss the pyrolisis regiment (I use dry burn for when there is absolutely no juice in the coil) experiments. Badly designed coils (given air and heat flow) could marginally increase pyrolisis because of hot spots. What a marginally increased pyrolisis would feel to the user? Throat hit, the thing that a lot of users look for. In fact, I once had a badly built vertical coil that had a very strong throat hit. I wet burned, and it would show glowing in the inside even with a saturated wick producing vapour... I thought "well, no air to cool it". Gave it a try... very harsh throat hit, the kind of thing you see in youtube videos of reviewers saying "*cough cough cough* damn! 10/10 throat hit, but I don't like that high of a throat hit". We were smokers, the standards for what is vapeable or not might be clear for experienced vapers, but for new users?
How that translates to "second hand vapour"? My theory is that pyrolisis regiment usually involves bad wicking or hotspots, which directly affects vapour production given the size of the coils. To reach that regiment, you trade off vapour production and you're using less liquid per hour (because of the throat punch.... I mean, hit), a thing that a machine will not do. But remember: don't dismiss our ability to muscle through marginal pyrolisis.
Precisely.
And please note that no human being would ever actually vape this way or inhale this stuff, because "dry hit" tastes terrible.
Compare:
heat oil in a skillet until it smokes. Throw in a steak. "Fry" the steak in the smoking hot oil until it is completely black. (Take care not to burn down your house in the process).
Make analysis of the completely burnt steak. Find unhealthy substances in the completely burnt steak.
Give out press release with the headline "Dangerous substances found in steak!"
Ban steaks.
- - Take care not to mention that the situation of your "experiment" was totally removed from anything that would happen in reality.
- - Take double care not to mention that no human being on earth would ever fry a steak in this way or consume such a completely burnt steak.
You nailed it, Anjaffm. That's the perfect formula from the article in the latest edition of Totalitarianism for Dummies: "How to Mislead and Lie to the Public by taking Hypothetically Unrealistic Situations and Presenting Them as the Norm".
Note: I made this up, but I wouldn't be surprised if there really were a secret document of the sort.
You nailed it, Anjaffm. That's the perfect formula from the article in the latest edition of Totalitarianism for Dummies: "How to Mislead and Lie to the Public by taking Hypothetically Unrealistic Situations and Presenting Them as the Norm".
Note: I made this up, but I wouldn't be surprised if there really were a secret document of the sort.
Seeing this now for the first time, coming from the area where I live and work. Idiots
The institute (Roswell) who is claiming all those toxins in vapor is indeed the same institute who conducted the famous study where formaldehyde was produced in a clearo by dry-burning it to oblivion... It seems they have really capitalized on the negative results of some of their studies and are gunning for more. It's a shame, because the initial studies they came out with on e-cigs were favorable of them, but unfortunately in the current climate the vapor scare tactics get a hell of a lot more press, and they've been getting international attention for their work because of it. So, as a result, they are repeating these results ad infinitum, and are conducting more studies as we speak...
Roswell is very trusted and respected in this area. They are the go-to center for cancer treatment, and I must admit I cannot knock them completely because they have taken excellent care of some of my loved ones in the past. Unfortunately, many people are reluctant to question the word of someone they trust so much, hence why they have so much influence on the current proposed bill.
I will look into this further and see what I can dig up. This is my backyard after all. If this becomes more than just talk, I may appeal to CASAA and ECF for assistance later.
Bottom line to all this stuff is WHERE IS THEIR RESEARCH? WHERE ARE THEIR NUMBERS? It amazes me (maybe) that so many "influential" people and other, can spew so much unproven garbage without facts and get away with misleading the public. Freedom of speech?
Bottom line to all this stuff is WHERE IS THEIR RESEARCH? WHERE ARE THEIR NUMBERS? It amazes me (maybe) that so many "influential" people and other, can spew so much unproven garbage without facts and get away with misleading the public. Freedom of speech?
Update: I have looked into this. There is no bill yet, but there are plans to draw one up. The bill is to ban all sales to minors county-wide, and to ban vaping in places where smoking is already prohibited. Vendors have voiced their concerns that an indoor vaping ban will affect their businesses - there is no word yet on whether an exception for them will be included in the bill. They plan to have the bill drawn up in a few weeks.
This ban appears to be almost entirely based on "expert" advice from Roswell, who, as I stated earlier, is becoming a leading manufacturer of fuel for ANTZ propaganda. The legislator writing the bill seems to be entirely taking their word for it, and they apparently have no other sources of information on vaping.
This legislator is Peter J. Savage III, who was apparently NOT elected, he was appointed to fill a vacancy. He was the one who organized the "fact-finding session" on e-cigarettes, and he is the one planning to draw up the bill. I find it more than a little disconcerning that someone who wasn't even elected is now writing a bill that will directly affect our citizens. According to several sources, his mind is very much made up on the issue.
Based on all of this, I feel it is best to wait until the bill is written, then contact other county legislators to have it voted down.
In the meantime, our local country station is holding a poll on whether or not we feel vaping should be banned indoors. Our side already has a 64% majority on that poll and I think it would be nice if some of us here on ECF contributed: WNY To Ban E-Cigarette Use? [POLL]
Update: I have looked into this. There is no bill yet, but there are plans to draw one up. The bill is to ban all sales to minors county-wide, and to ban vaping in places where smoking is already prohibited. Vendors have voiced their concerns that an indoor vaping ban will affect their businesses - there is no word yet on whether an exception for them will be included in the bill. They plan to have the bill drawn up in a few weeks.
This ban appears to be almost entirely based on "expert" advice from Roswell, who, as I stated earlier, is becoming a leading manufacturer of fuel for ANTZ propaganda. The legislator writing the bill seems to be entirely taking their word for it, and they apparently have no other sources of information on vaping.
This legislator is Peter J. Savage III, who was apparently NOT elected, he was appointed to fill a vacancy. He was the one who organized the "fact-finding session" on e-cigarettes, and he is the one planning to draw up the bill. I find it more than a little disconcerning that someone who wasn't even elected is now writing a bill that will directly affect our citizens. According to several sources, his mind is very much made up on the issue.
Based on all of this, I feel it is best to wait until the bill is written, then contact other county legislators to have it voted down.
In the meantime, our local country station is holding a poll on whether or not we feel vaping should be banned indoors. Our side already has a 64% majority on that poll and I think it would be nice if some of us here on ECF contributed: WNY To Ban E-Cigarette Use? [POLL]
just point them to the abstracts in the paper and let them know the paper is ammunition. The papers are in a little crate icon at the bottom of this post:
[url=http://thevapingmilitia.org/marching-orders-get-those-pens-out/]Marching Orders! Get those pens out! | The Vaping Militia[/url]
I'd be curious HOW MANY doctors at Roswell support this ...there is this sad tendency to let a grandstanding loudmouth have is way. They may be afraid to oppose the guy
As for Roswell, the PR to legislators moves are recent. I do believe that they are trying to push an anti-ecig slant to garner more research money. They've been conducting research on vaping for the last couple years, then came out with the famous formaldehyde study in May. You can tell just by reading the study that the researchers fully understood the danger was only there at certain voltages, but the media blew it out of proportion, and ever since then Roswell has been pushing against vaping. I think they are getting a lot of attention and, therefore, money for it. They are a giant, money-making institution, so I think attempting to reason with them on this point is out of the question.
AFTER someone has promised another legislator a vote is too late.
That is an extremely good point, and your links to the counterfactual and vaping militia are very much appreciated.
For those who want to jump on this right away, here is a list of Erie County legislators by district: Erie County Legislature
The ringleader, Peter Savage, is from district 3, which appears to be the North Buffalo / Tonawanda area. If you live in that area, make sure you contact him directly and give him what for! Remember he was appointed, not elected!
I would strongly encourage anyone who wants to take this on to contact all legislators, not just those from your district. Remember there are many from each district who feel the same way you do but are not aware of what is happening, and you can represent them.
Previously they've become known for running clinical trials for BP - conflict of interest anyone?
RPCI received large sums from FDA to manufacture studies that support their policy agenda.
The well known ANTZ and author of the egregious studies on formaldehyde, 2nd hand, and 3rd hand vapor is one of their resident tobacco experts: Maciej Goniewicz. Drop him a message: https://www.roswellpark.edu/maciej-goniewicz
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