K4 Clone... That was fast!

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horton

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I just don't get it -- how can a clone be made so quickly? Don't the cloners need an original in hand to make a copy of it? I see that the clones are only pre-sale now, but still it seems awful fast.

I'd really be appreciative if some kind, knowledgeable person could post an explanation about the machining process and how clones are made so this confused "vapist" could stop wondering.....:confused:
TIA.....
 

exnihilo

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The difference in quality between the same products from one manufacturer is typically caused by worn tools. They run them until they break. You get three first few they're great, you number one thousand, no so great, and the quality continues to dwindle until they're forced to change the tool out.

Of course that's second to the subpar, rust prone materials that use to produce our wares.

Tapa-shutup
 

jambi

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I just don't get it -- how can a clone be made so quickly? Don't the cloners need an original in hand to make a copy of it? I see that the clones are only pre-sale now, but still it seems awful fast.

I'd really be appreciative if some kind, knowledgeable person could post an explanation about the machining process and how clones are made so this confused "vapist" could stop wondering.....:confused:
TIA.....

Two words...industrial espionage. :) Blueprints are worth far more than an original piece in hand. Saves having to draw up your own set.

Waiting for the hcigar version.
 

friediceman

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I just don't get it -- how can a clone be made so quickly? Don't the cloners need an original in hand to make a copy of it? I see that the clones are only pre-sale now, but still it seems awful fast.

I'd really be appreciative if some kind, knowledgeable person could post an explanation about the machining process and how clones are made so this confused "vapist" could stop wondering.....:confused:
TIA.....

A very possible scenario is that the authentic is outsourced to a manufacturing plant in China, when they finish the batch ordered, they just run a few more batches and sell them as clones.
 

horton

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Two words...industrial espionage. :) Blueprints are worth far more than an original piece in hand. Saves having to draw up your own set.
Waiting for the hcigar version.
A very possible scenario is that the authentic is outsourced to a manufacturing plant in China, when they finish the batch ordered, they just run a few more batches and sell them as clones.
Never thought about the espionage angle..... sounds sort of "James Bondish", but certainly not out of the realm of possibility especially after friediceman's post. I do remember reading quite a while ago about the possibility of European co's outsourcing work to China, but what does that say about the "buttery smooth threads" type comments? Can Chinese machine work really match up to European stds?
This is all very enigmatic.......lol Think I'll go read a good thriller novel now.....:D
 

jambi

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Can Chinese machine work really match up to European stds?

I honestly think it's time to lay to rest old notions about 'Chinese Inferiority'. It's apparent the Chinese are capable of applying any tier of quality they care to (not that they always care to), from 'shoddy' all the way up to 'first class'. Considering the highly developed nature of their current industrial infrastructure, they are probably at this point easily capable of exceeding any 'standard', European, US, or otherwise.

Important to remember with Chinese manufacturing, particularly cloning...mass production and lower price point are the prime directives. Lower price always equates to lower quality materials, workmanship, etc. Heh, that's the only way to get the cost down.

IMAO, it's credulous to assume that Chinese manufacturers lack a fundamental understanding of 'quality'. On the contrary, they appear to be very adept at applying finite degrees of it, to the ultimate benefit of what we're all demanding...acceptable quality at low cost.

However, there will always be 'Chinese junk', for as long as the market demands it. What's most important is that we as consumers stay vocal as to what's acceptable and what's not. Remember the first Taifun GT clones from Fast Tech, with the chrome-plated brass decks? Consumers complained, the manufacturers and distributors responded, and those brass decks were replaced with ss by Fast Tech.
 
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nasca

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I just don't get it -- how can a clone be made so quickly? Don't the cloners need an original in hand to make a copy of it? I see that the clones are only pre-sale now, but still it seems awful fast.

I'd really be appreciative if some kind, knowledgeable person could post an explanation about the machining process and how clones are made so this confused "vapist" could stop wondering.....:confused:
TIA.....

I'd speculate that the clones arent actually made yet. They accept "pre-sales" which is just a way to raise fast capital needed for the first batch or two. once an authentic is acquired, it is shipped to the factory to be 3D scanned and put into CAD, and then pumped out on machines and by workers all day/night. there is no R&D, no in-depth testing, no prototypes -- so turn around seems instantaneous.
 

horton

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I'd speculate that the clones arent actually made yet. They accept "pre-sales" which is just a way to raise fast capital needed for the first batch or two. once an authentic is acquired, it is shipped to the factory to be 3D scanned and put into CAD, and then pumped out on machines and by workers all day/night. there is no R&D, no in-depth testing, no prototypes -- so turn around seems instantaneous.
Thanks for all the replies.... it's starting to make more sense now. Wonder how long peeps will be waiting for their clones to be made? Sort of reminds me of Duke power here in FL and how they were/are charging customers for a nuclear power plant that was under construction but yet to go online..... geez -- now I have two things to gripe about....:ohmy:
 

Millah

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I'd speculate that the clones arent actually made yet. They accept "pre-sales" which is just a way to raise fast capital needed for the first batch or two. once an authentic is acquired, it is shipped to the factory to be 3D scanned and put into CAD, and then pumped out on machines and by workers all day/night. there is no R&D, no in-depth testing, no prototypes -- so turn around seems instantaneous.

Exactly. The things aren't shipping yet. They're just taking pre sales. Easy way to sucker people into giving them free capital early on, as well as free marketing/promotion for the product. The Chinese likely got an authentic on release day, have worked day and night reverse engineering the thing, and now feel confident about being able to manufacture a certain quantity by a specific date. So about a months worth of work to get a reverse engineered clone out the door, which doesn't seem too unfeasible for the Chinese.

I don't think people realize that the Chinese factories have "spies" EVERYWHERE in the vaping industry, keeping their ears open and seeing whats happening in the industry. What's hot, what customers are expecting, what's coming around the corner. They send them to all the big expos and such where new products are debuted so they can either get their hands on it or at least get a glimpse/photos. It also wouldn't surprise me if they bribe employees that work internally at companies like Svoemesto. This sort of thing happens to Apple ALL THE TIME, employees get bribed by factories in China that want to see the new iPhone early to produce cases available on launch day.
 

crxess

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Exactly. The things aren't shipping yet. They're just taking pre sales. Easy way to sucker people into giving them free capital early on, as well as free marketing/promotion for the product. The Chinese likely got an authentic on release day, have worked day and night reverse engineering the thing, and now feel confident about being able to manufacture a certain quantity by a specific date. So about a months worth of work to get a reverse engineered clone out the door, which doesn't seem too unfeasible for the Chinese.

I don't think people realize that the Chinese factories have "spies" EVERYWHERE in the vaping industry, keeping their ears open and seeing whats happening in the industry. What's hot, what customers are expecting, what's coming around the corner. They send them to all the big expos and such where new products are debuted so they can either get their hands on it or at least get a glimpse/photos. It also wouldn't surprise me if they bribe employees that work internally at companies like Svoemesto. This sort of thing happens to Apple ALL THE TIME, employees get bribed by factories in China that want to see the new iPhone early to produce cases available on launch day.

And?
This is and has been the way of BIG Business world wide for Decades. China is just a bit to transparent in their actions, cloning instead of making modified versions of someone else product.
Gaining working Capitol up front is becoming a big practice now a days.
 

Millah

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And?
This is and has been the way of BIG Business world wide for Decades. China is just a bit to transparent in their actions, cloning instead of making modified versions of someone else product.
Gaining working Capitol up front is becoming a big practice now a days.

Um, my comment was mainly in response to some suggesting that perhaps the K4 was outsourced to China. No, its not all that surprising that China is attempting to clone the K4 within a month of release. That's all I'm saying. I'm not digging at China.

And sure, gaining capitol up front is obviously big practice. Yea, just about every company gathers capitol up front before development of something. However, not every industry gathers that capitol from their customers, interest-free. And this is especially not a dig at China. Far more western modders engage in this practice, not the Chinese.
 

dravell

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Another company emailed me today, their first prw order of 1000 of KF4 is sold out, taking second batch orders. Also have the Taifun GT2 avail too which is cool

24c8xt5.jpg
 

Mike43110

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Honestly, after seeing the sheer number of parts I was surprised.

Making it so modular will serve two purposes. 1st would be that it is honestly easier to clone as it can be broken down more.
No 3D scanning is used I can promise that. More likely there are a few Chinese guys with high accuracy measuring tools that are recreating the CAD files (or they have stolen them from the factory if espionage took place).

The second part though is that making more parts means that the tolerances will HAVE to be tighter. With few parts the accumulative error is small, with many parts that error grows and may cause issues unless the machining is high precision.

So I expect either very poor clones or quite good clones being the end result. Of course, manufacturing attys isn't my thing but +-1mm tolerances will add up quickly on 41 parts (haven't looked at the number of actual machined parts yet).

Even the order of manufacturing can matter. As an example, don't cut then weld as the heat of the welding warps the parts and then holes don't necessarily line up.
 
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