Kanger Dripbox 160 TC

[Mooch]

Mooch: To say the battery is not a 35A cell, that all depends on your application. i.e. in the need of 35A for an initial burst during, say, a POST of various components (hypothetical), the battery would fit the need, making it - in that instance - fit the application, and making it a 35A cell.

For a need or want of 35A CDR, then no, it's not a 35A in that application. As you pointed out, a mod malfunction or any other incident that causes a continual discharge on the battery poses the same risk with ANY battery.

The fact that people are incapable of realizing that simple point? THAT, again, is why Sony doesn't want the consumer market having their cells.

A battery rating is completely different from a battery capability. A rating is unambiguous and the same no matter how the battery is used. A battery capability can be anything you want depending on how the battery is used.

It is universally accepted that when discussing batteries that a rating refers to the CDR, unless otherwise noted. It's an industry standard and prevents confusion and having to list the criteria and limits used to define the new number.

A rating has defined limits for temperature, cycle life, voltage, etc. A capability just states that the battery can do something, typically without knowing its temperature, voltage sag, effect on cycle life, etc.

You could say that a 25A battery can be used for vaping at 35A as vaping has some built in limits on how the battery is used. It's a very incomplete description of the battery, ignoring safety, cycle life, etc., but it can be done. Heck, you can even say that a 25A battery can be used for doing something at 100A, the VTC5A can pulse at that level. But that doesn't even remotely make it a 100A battery. You're saying we can call it a 100A battery though.

The application does not determine the rating or what current level we declare for that battery, i.e., it's a "100A battery". It certainly allows us to say that it's capable of 100A though. But you can see that without additional info that capability statement is quite incomplete as the battery can easily be damaged or overheat.

I could ask now why people aren't capable of realizing that simple point. But what does that contribute to this conversation?

 

[TheWestPole]

Been trying several 22 mm BF toppers lately on Dripbox: Velocity Mini, Hastur V2, Doge V2, the stock atty, and now NoPity (converted with a Fatdaddy BF pin). Wow. This is by far my favorite for taste and vapor quality. Been using the same build for comparison. But NoPity's flavor and vapor is so intense that I downsized the build. Highly recommended.

 

[Roadtrip635]

Mooch is the man! The vaping community has been very fortunate to have him and all his diligent testing and has been an indispensable resource. I'm convinced he has saved a few lives and limbs thanks to all his information.

 

[VladK16]

Been trying several 22 mm BF toppers lately on Dripbox: Velocity Mini, Hastur V2, Doge V2, the stock atty, and now NoPity (converted with a Fatdaddy BF pin). Wow. This is by far my favorite for taste and vapor quality. Been using the same build for comparison. But NoPity's flavor and vapor is so intense that I downsized the build. Highly recommended.

View attachment 591021

I just ordered one of these NoPitys from FT on Monday! What size FDV BF pin are you using for this guy? Did you get it through FT or 3fvape? Looks like a really nice squonking RDA but do you have issues with flooding from the BF airflow? My Hastur V2 should be arriving next week.

Thanks for posting the pic with the SS DB! Now I know what my setup will look like soon!

 

[Highwayman1224]

You sound extremely stupid.....

Actually, using said 'common sense' is not something I'm particularly keen on. 'Common sense' is another way of saying common consensus, or the generally agreed upon. We already know 2/3 of the worlds population is completely stupid, thus, making common sense joining the masses. Not having common sense is typically a good thing.

 

[TheWestPole]

I just ordered one of these NoPitys from FT on Monday! What size FDV BF pin are you using for this guy? Did you get it through FT or 3fvape? Looks like a really nice squonking RDA but do you have issues with flooding from the BF airflow? My Hastur V2 should be arriving next week.

Thanks for posting the pic with the SS DB! Now I know what my setup will look like soon!

Got it from FT. Quality of the machining is excellent. The BF pin from Fatdaddy is the 2.5 mm SS. The head is a bit thick and I ground off .5 mm for a perfect fit. But it will work without doing that, just stick up a tick high. I do wish the pin were 2-3 mm longer so I could squonk more juice. But I've had not one leak of any kind, over-squonk or otherwise. That juice well is deep!

 

[TheWestPole]

Mooch is the man! The vaping community has been very fortunate to have him and all his diligent testing and has been an indispensable resource. I'm convinced he has saved a few lives and limbs thanks to all his information.

+1 on that sentiment!

 

[JonnyWhatshisface]

Heck, you can even say that a 25A battery can be used for doing something at 100A, the VTC5A can pulse at that level. But that doesn't even remotely make it a 100A battery. You're saying we can call it a 100A battery though.

Pulsing at 100A would be flat out stupid. It simply does not have the voltage to support that type of current. It is, however, rated for 35A pulsing. Even pulsing it, the battery does not instantly hit 105C. It's not intended to be pulsed at that current for extended periods of time. Your testing is testing up to a certain voltage cutoff, indicating, it's being pulsed for an extended period of time until that voltage drop-off is reached.

Again, it's dependent upon the application. There is NO danger, which you've also just agreed to several posts back, without heat being involved. So you're going to say pulsing the battery at 35A a few times for a few seconds each is going to build the heat high enough for the battery to vent? If that were the case, it would have exploded in your tester. You, yourself, have acknowledged that the danger is in mod failure or even a case of it being in a pocket/bag and getting continually discharged at that rate. That brings us right back to the previous point: heat/CDR.

I'll hand you credit - you're an intelligent guy. But it's clear you don't design electronics/hardware... You're dancing around a topic that you know the answer to, and you're playing the 'politically correct' game with regards to holding your opinion on the batteries capabilities as solely applies to the application of being used for vaping. And basically, that boils down to a game of semantics and what-if's. My guess is you're a mathematician.

Just for grins, I put the .06 build back on and have been running that since last night. I guess you'll see me on the news in a few days, or maybe you won't see me posting anymore because I'll blow my fingers off and won't be able to type.

 

[JonnyWhatshisface]

+1 on that sentiment!

I'm not disagreeing with this at all. He's sharing knowledge that is keeping people safe, because people have a tendency to want to drop a cinder block on the gas pedal and then question why the motor blew up. But in this case, he's wrong in saying the battery cannot be pulsed at 35A safely in certain applications. He's sticking to this particular application (vaping) - in which case, the vast majority of people want to not worry about paying attention to how much they're pushing the mod, and simply want it to work with no repercussion when they push the button.

This is equivalent to saying, "Never keep a round in the chamber of your gun, as it's just as quick to chamber the round as it would be to remove the safety." Instead of teaching people to always treat any gun as if there is a round in the chamber, we teach them to essentially assume there isn't and to stop regarding safety precautions, thus, people end up accidentally being shot in the face because they think the gun isn't loaded.

I respect Mooch, and I respect what he has shared with everyone and how he has helped them. But from a TECHNICAL perspective, the arguments are wrong.

 

[JonnyWhatshisface]

Heck, you can even say that a 25A battery can be used for doing something at 100A, the VTC5A can pulse at that level. But that doesn't even remotely make it a 100A battery. You're saying we can call it a 100A battery though

And also, as another note: Yeah, if you want to risk a brownout... Pulse it at 100A in your tester, I'd love to see that result, actually.

 

[Mooch]

Pulsing at 100A would be flat out stupid. It simply does not have the voltage to support that type of current. It is, however, rated for 35A pulsing. Even pulsing it, the battery does not instantly hit 105C. It's not intended to be pulsed at that current for extended periods of time. Your testing is testing up to a certain voltage cutoff, indicating, it's being pulsed for an extended period of time until that voltage drop-off is reached.

Three paragraphs deleted since he's seen them and it involves unsafe discharge levels and no one should attempt it.

Of course the VTC5A can be pulsed at 35A. We are not in disagreement about that. Any 10A, or higher, battery can be pulsed at that level without overheating depending on the duty cycle. With varying degrees of performance, of course, but totally doable. I never said or implied otherwise.

Again, it's dependent upon the application. There is NO danger, which you've also just agreed to several posts back, without heat being involved. So you're going to say pulsing the battery at 35A a few times for a few seconds each is going to build the heat high enough for the battery to vent? If that were the case, it would have exploded in your tester. You, yourself, have acknowledged that the danger is in mod failure or even a case of it being in a pocket/bag and getting continually discharged at that rate. That brings us right back to the previous point: heat/CDR.

I've never once even implied that pulsing at any remotely reasonable duty cycle at 35A would bring the VTC5A anywhere near the point of venting. Just that an accidental continuous discharge could...that's it. So, of course, there is a danger without heat being involved. Just not if everything is functioning normally.

You're mixing me in with other conversations you are having and not understanding what I am saying.

All I said was you don't know the difference between a rating and a capability. That is completely independent of any discussion of this battery.

I'll hand you credit - you're an intelligent guy. But it's clear you don't design electronics/hardware... You're dancing around a topic that you know the answer to, and you're playing the 'politically correct' game with regards to holding your opinion on the batteries capabilities as solely applies to the application of being used for vaping. And basically, that boils down to a game of semantics and what-if's. My guess is you're a mathematician.

My test results are independent of any application. You've somehow misunderstood what I've been saying, and why. Probably because you think I feel you can't pulse this battery at 35A without overheating. Of course you can...sheesh. I've said that. My tests show that. And yet you feel I am trying to say it's not true? I think you're confusing me with others here in this topic.

You can pulse at 35A, 40A, 50A, 60A, even 70A with this battery, assuming reasonable duty cycles, as I have done in my testing. I've never said anything contrary to that. That does not mean there's no risk. If there is a malfunction then the battery could vent if it ends up being discharged continuously. Some say that makes discharging at these levels dangerous. Some say the risk of that is incredibly small and doesn't create any additional danger. There is no correct answer, it's solely a personal choice.

I'm not sure how our conversation can even remotely imply that I don't design electronics/hardware. A pretty interesting, and revealing, comment you made. Since 1992 I've been doing exactly that as my career. I specialize in power management electronics such as power supplies, battery chargers, energy harvesters (solar, heat, vibration), battery management/protection systems, electronic loads, battery analyzers, battery/ultracapacitor hybrid power sources, etc. My clients have included National Geographic, Sports Illustrated, Eastman Kodak (preferred vendor for the Professional Products Division), the US Army, and a huge number of other commercial and gov't clients. My designs have ranged from devices that use current levels from microamps to kiloamps. The work also includes a great deal of device firmware coding.

Interesting that you thought I was a mathematician though. Quite flattering, thank you! There's a discipline and analytical approach that those folks have that is quit enviable.

Even more interesting is your choice to bring up something personal like your guesses at my profession. How is that important or relevant?

Just for grins, I put the .06 build back on and have been running that since last night. I guess you'll see me on the news in a few days, or maybe you won't see me posting anymore because I'll blow my fingers off and won't be able to type.

Excellent! Sounds like an awesome warm vape. Why would I see you in the news?
That 0.06 is a nice average super-sub-ohm build. You're starting at about 3.25V (minus mod and atty voltage drops) so you're well within the pulse capabilities of the VTC5A. You feel that any risk of mod malfunction or accidental button press is inconsequential, which is fine, so enjoy! Lots of people vape with 0.06 builds every day without problems. Most with lower performing batteries than the VTC5A too. Of course, some people have had battery problems when vaping with builds that low.

I only said that ratings and capabilities are completely different things and that vaping at certain current levels beyond a certain point can bring a battery to a temperature high enough to vent if there is a problem. This is incontrovertible. It is considered risky behavior by some, but not by others. Again, personal choice. But deciding the risk is inconsequential does not remove it.

 

[Mooch]

I'm not disagreeing with this at all. He's sharing knowledge that is keeping people safe, because people have a tendency to want to drop a cinder block on the gas pedal and then question why the motor blew up. But in this case, he's wrong in saying the battery cannot be pulsed at 35A safely in certain applications. He's sticking to this particular application (vaping) - in which case, the vast majority of people want to not worry about paying attention to how much they're pushing the mod, and simply want it to work with no repercussion when they push the button.

This is equivalent to saying, "Never keep a round in the chamber of your gun, as it's just as quick to chamber the round as it would be to remove the safety." Instead of teaching people to always treat any gun as if there is a round in the chamber, we teach them to essentially assume there isn't and to stop regarding safety precautions, thus, people end up accidentally being shot in the face because they think the gun isn't loaded.

I respect Mooch, and I respect what he has shared with everyone and how he has helped them. But from a TECHNICAL perspective, the arguments are wrong.

Of course the battery can be pulsed at 35A without even coming close to overheating....if nothing goes wrong. I never said it couldn't. The risk and possible danger comes if there s a mod malfunction or accidental button press.

How is this argument wrong, from any perspective?

 

[Mooch]

And also, as another note: Yeah, if you want to risk a brownout... Pulse it at 100A in your tester, I'd love to see that result, actually.

Deleted since he's already seen it.

 

[Vinnybagodoughnuts]

I actually came here to read about the Dropbox.There's a time for daring and there's a time for caution, a wise man understands which is called for.

 

[JonnyWhatshisface]

Of course it can output 100A. It's not a smart thing to do but it's easily done. Many of the batteries we vape with can do that. I'm actually quite shocked that you didn't know this considering your low ohm builds and vaping style. Take a look at my testing...

Nowhere in there did I say it CAN'T put out 100A. Again, obviously, a mathematician.

I've done dozens of discharges of batteries used by vapers at 100A and above, up to 150A. Here are some 100A results...

Yet again, you misinterpreted my statement. I said I wanted to see the results - I'm not saying you have not done it. I wanted to see the voltage output . Thank you for providing. My assumption was correct - the voltages are far below nominal.

If I needed to supply at least 3.2v @ 35A for a pulse as part of a POST, then obviously, the Sony VTC5A fits the application and is more than capable of being dubbed a '35A cell' for that cause. If I wanted 100A at 3.2v, then guess what? Brownout.

My issue is that people are taking what you are saying and applying it as a GENERAL statement... That the VTC5A cannot ever be considered a '35A cell' - which is false. Again, it's dependent upon the application, like anything else in electronics.

I only said that ratings and capabilities are completely different things and that vaping at certain current levels beyond a certain point can bring a battery to a temperature high enough to vent if there is a problem. This is incontrovertible. It is considered risky behavior by some, but not by others. Again, personal choice. But deciding the risk is inconsequential does not remove it.

Fully agreed. But there are two types of risks that one can take: educated risks, and uneducated risks (generally referred to as stupid). Even running constantly at 20A carries risk no different than running at 35A. But to assume the individual who is doing something is not taking an EDUCATED risk is outright ignorance.

The issue is that the would-be know-it-alls suddenly look at the squiggly lines of the graphs with numbers that you have provided them, they read up a little bit on Ohm's law, and all of a sudden - they're subject matter experts that assume anyone who does anything outside of what is deemed their acceptable norm is otherwise 'stupid' and/or 'being too risky.'

Meanwhile, with regards to electronics, they have no REAL knowledge of experience in applying it, thus, are limited to knowledge solely in their application, and really don't know what the true dangers are and are not. This makes them twice as dangerous themselves.

You have NO idea how many times I've been in vape shops and heard them give 'professional advice' to someone and it made me want to reach out and ..... slap them. I'm sure ALL of you on here have experienced that sentiment at least once or twice. But not taking the time to truly understand it from an electronics perspective is where the issue is.

The vast majority of people who are otherwise calling me stupid don't even really know exactly WHY the batteries can vent, or what even causes it - they simply know that 'bad things can happen.' They're making assumptions on things they are otherwise not truly educated on, albeit following safe guidelines in doing so. But for them to assume I'm stupid makes them ignorant.

I'm not knocking you, nor what you're saying - and I do appreciate what it is you do and the help you give to a community that would otherwise end up trying to build vaporizers from cut lamp cords and a light bulbs for the sake of saying 'oh dude... I've got 10000 watts of power!' But understand where I am coming from: I'm a hardware developer and an embedded systems developer. The application is how we dub whether or not a cell is, indeed, a '35A cell' - and coming from that perspective, I can justify use-cases to say, 'this is a 35A cell.'

Your data, while extremely informative and greatly appreciated, only further confirms that. Your 100A tests also further confirm my statement of risking a brownout. I wasn't talking about risk associated to you DOING the tests. When designing circuitry, brownouts are extremely dangerous. You know equally as well that amperage without proper voltage = what? And what happens when we start exceeding that 'what' on our components? They become damaged.

Again, clearly, I reiterate that I believe your statement claiming this is 'not a 35A cell' should technically be rephrased to 'This cell is not what I would consider a 35A cell for this application (vaping).'

 

[Hightech Redneck]

Nowhere in there did I say it CAN'T put out 100A. Again, obviously, a mathematician.



Yet again, you misinterpreted my statement. I said I wanted to see the results - I'm not saying you have not done it. I wanted to see the voltage output . Thank you for providing. My assumption was correct - the voltages are far below nominal.

If I needed to supply at least 3.2v @ 35A for a pulse as part of a POST, then obviously, the Sony VTC5A fits the application and is more than capable of being dubbed a '35A cell' for that cause. If I wanted 100A at 3.2v, then guess what? Brownout.

My issue is that people are taking what you are saying and applying it as a GENERAL statement... That the VTC5A cannot ever be considered a '35A cell' - which is false. Again, it's dependent upon the application, like anything else in electronics.


Fully agreed. But there are two types of risks that one can take: educated risks, and uneducated risks (generally referred to as stupid). Even running constantly at 20A carries risk no different than running at 35A. But to assume the individual who is doing something is not taking an EDUCATED risk is outright ignorance.

The issue is that the would-be know-it-alls suddenly look at the squiggly lines of the graphs with numbers that you have provided them, they read up a little bit on Ohm's law, and all of a sudden - they're subject matter experts that assume anyone who does anything outside of what is deemed their acceptable norm is otherwise 'stupid' and/or 'being too risky.'

Meanwhile, with regards to electronics, they have no REAL knowledge of experience in applying it, thus, are limited to knowledge solely in their application, and really don't know what the true dangers are and are not. This makes them twice as dangerous themselves.

You have NO idea how many times I've been in vape shops and heard them give 'professional advice' to someone and it made me want to reach out and ..... slap them. I'm sure ALL of you on here have experienced that sentiment at least once or twice. But not taking the time to truly understand it from an electronics perspective is where the issue is.

The vast majority of people who are otherwise calling me stupid don't even really know exactly WHY the batteries can vent, or what even causes it - they simply know that 'bad things can happen.' They're making assumptions on things they are otherwise not truly educated on, albeit following safe guidelines in doing so. But for them to assume I'm stupid makes them ignorant.

I'm not knocking you, nor what you're saying - and I do appreciate what it is you do and the help you give to a community that would otherwise end up trying to build vaporizers from cut lamp cords and a light bulbs for the sake of saying 'oh dude... I've got 10000 watts of power!' But understand where I am coming from: I'm a hardware developer and an embedded systems developer. The application is how we dub whether or not a cell is, indeed, a '35A cell' - and coming from that perspective, I can justify use-cases to say, 'this is a 35A cell.'

Your data, while extremely informative and greatly appreciated, only further confirms that. Your 100A tests also further confirm my statement of risking a brownout. I wasn't talking about risk associated to you DOING the tests. When designing circuitry, brownouts are extremely dangerous. You know equally as well that amperage without proper voltage = what? And what happens when we start exceeding that 'what' on our components? They become damaged.

Again, clearly, I reiterate that I believe your statement claiming this is 'not a 35A cell' should technically be rephrased to 'This cell is not what I would consider a 35A cell for this application (vaping).'

OK ease up on the thread hijacking here please. Mooch is a well respected tester on and off of ecf. If you want to say the same thing to him over and over, do it on one of the numerous battery threads.
Your argument with mooch has nothing to do with the dripbox.
Mooch thank you again for your work with batteries. It is enormously helpful to prevent harm.
And you keep telling mooch to say for this application (vaping) while on ecf. He (and myself) are here to discuss vaporizers etc and help those we can to understand it all.

 

[sawlight]

Seems a lot of assumptions have been made, about safety and members of the forum. I assure you, there are many here that have more than "a basic understanding of Ohm's law". You might consider toning that down, assumptions can lead down a bad road.
But your practices really concern me. We try to provide people with a safe way to vape, I'm afraid people will come across these post and again, assume, that since you are doing it, and carrying on about how safe it really is, that it's safe for them to do the same.
But I digress, hopefully @retired1 will have a good idea on this situation.
Good luck to you.

 

[retired1]

Knock it off and keep it on topic.

 

[VladK16]

Got it from FT. Quality of the machining is excellent. The BF pin from Fatdaddy is the 2.5 mm SS. The head is a bit thick and I ground off .5 mm for a perfect fit. But it will work without doing that, just stick up a tick high. I do wish the pin were 2-3 mm longer so I could squonk more juice. But I've had not one leak of any kind, over-squonk or otherwise. That juice well is deep!

Thanks for confirming that! I ordered both sizes from FDV just in case ... before you posted the size ... but hopefully I will be able to use the 3mm ones for another conversion down the road. Glad to hear of no leaking as the leaking (due to over squonking) is getting old on my Tsunami 24.

 

[Mooch]

Knock it off and keep it on topic.

Thank you for the reminder of what this thread should be about, so easy to get drawn into things like this. My apologies to the participants in this thread.