Let's start Looking for Alternatives to SS Mesh

[j4mmin42]

So, by now, may of you have noticed the thread dealing with Chromium oxide being formed on our SS mesh after being heated.

I want to try and research some alternatives that will work for those of us who love rebuildables. My first two thoughts are unbleached, untreated hemp fiber, and cotton. I seriously doubt that these materials will be as effective at wicking as mesh was, but in traditional, non-genesis rba's, they may indeed be viable candidates. I will be keeping ONE genesis setup to test, and purchasing a higher-end non-genesis rebuildable to test as well (I never really had a high-end, non-genesis rba to begin with).

So here, in this thread, please post any knowledge you have about these alternative wicking materials, your thoughts on this whole situation, etc. The last thing I want to do is incite panic, but after seeing the numbers, I'm pretty devastated that I've been recommending the SS to so many people. I think it's only right to start a thread like this to try and find a viable alternative.

 

[Rule62]

I have a couple friends who have been doing some experimenting with Nextel sleeving. I don't know much about it yet. I was given a small piece, but haven't fooled with it yet. Basically, the Nextel goes over the stainless steel wick, which can be left unoxidized; and the coil is wrapped around the Nextel.

 

[j4mmin42]

I had considered the ceramic, but someone had inquired to 3m about the material and its suitability as a wick, and the letter that they got back was less-than-positive. So, for now, that material is off the table.

Thanks for the response, though. If we're gonna move forward, it's going to take more than just one person to brainstorm and find the info we need!

 

[donnah]

This is the first I've heard about any danger to using ss mesh. I gave up silica when I kept reading about the alleged dangers and went to cotton. I'm right in the middle of the learning curve with gennys and don't want to have to give them up!

I also use the drunker rba with cotton, wicks much better than mesh and has the same intense flavor. It's only $15 so many will turn up their noses at it but it's a sturdy little guy and works great. And no, cotton doesn't work too well with gennys.. I tried it.

 

[KillTheNoise]

First I've heard of this as well. Link to that discussion maybe?

 

[j4mmin42]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...08-stainless-steel-mesh-oxide-discussion.html

Posts 1 and 10 are relevant. The rest of it is mostly postulation, and the tests are- as of now- inconclusive. But deep in the thread is a post that lists exposure limits for drinking water of .02 ppb for Chromium VI, which is an extremely low threshold. This is what has me concerned.

If possible, keep discussion of SS and its suitability as a wicking material on that thread, and non-SS-related solutions to the problem here on this one...that way we stay organized.

 

[pAth77]

I believe that THIS is the thread that he's referring to.

EDIT: Ninja beat me to it.

 

[Skeetorius]

My genesis AGA-T2 should be here tomorrow. I'm gonna score some surgical cotton and other various materials from work that MIGHT be suitable....mostly cottons, but I'm kind of over the whole SS thing.

Something rigid enough to fit into the tank, yet able to wick, doesn't oxidize, and is as "natural" as possible. A little burnt cotton, if it gets dry, doesn't concern me that much. Neither does hemp.

What about a glass capillary tube wrapped in cotton at the top? Rigid, would keep wet. Could go straight to the bottom of the tank. I might have to try that out. Just thinking out loud here.

I've seen some things on the Kanthal wire....but it seems safe....Am I correct?

What are the dimensions of the wick hole on the AGA T-2....anyone?

 

[donnah]

what about the ss rope? Or is it the same thing?

I saw back awhile ago where someone was doing some testing with a glass tube over the mesh, the coil would be wrapped around the glass tube, the mesh would wick the juice and the coil would heat the glass. But then I heard that at high temps, the glass could shatter... don't know what ever became of the issue or experiment. Like I said above, I once tried a strand of cotton in a genny, it didn't do too well. I've heard of someone else using cotton in a genny with the spin-e method and it worked quite well.

 

[flintlock62]

Bamboo absorbs more per weight than any other natural material.

 

[MikeE3]

I had considered the ceramic, but someone had inquired to 3m about the material and its suitability as a wick, and the letter that they got back was less-than-positive. So, for now, that material is off the table.

Thanks for the response, though. If we're gonna move forward, it's going to take more than just one person to brainstorm and find the info we need!

I don't know what 3m said, but a lot of us are having a good experience with ceramic wicks.

I think you should re-consider not including ceramic stones both commercially prepared and DIY.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/362182-next-big-thing-porous-ceramic-wicks.html

 

[MikeE3]

what about the ss rope? Or is it the same thing?

I saw back awhile ago where someone was doing some testing with a glass tube over the mesh, the coil would be wrapped around the glass tube, the mesh would wick the juice and the coil would heat the glass. But then I heard that at high temps, the glass could shatter... don't know what ever became of the issue or experiment. Like I said above, I once tried a strand of cotton in a genny, it didn't do too well. I've heard of someone else using cotton in a genny with the spin-e method and it worked quite well.

A viable, vape-able solution never surfaced. I've got a lot of glass tubing if you want it.

 

[Thrasher]

is a post that lists exposure limits for drinking water


right and as i stated to this person this is the whole problem right here. just like the silica wick exposure issue. they keep reffering to the amount of silica dust needed to be breathed by the person to develop silicosis.
which in anycase we do not breath the wick dust and we do not drink the ejuice. even then the most extreme vapors use what 15 20 ml a day? this doesnt equate to even one fluide ounce if you were drinking it.
just breathing the heated wire is exposing us to more nickle chromium and aluminum then we will )i believe) ever be able to vape in our juice.


the mostly unoxidised wicks do not leech back into the tank because 90% of the mesh is not coated in burned chromium and reduces this issue even further.

in the end there can be lead and gasoline detected in the fluid. but someone has to quit goofing off and PROVE it is in the vapor not the fluid.and this is where ALL this debate keeps failing.

 

[j4mmin42]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...08-stainless-steel-mesh-oxide-discussion.html
If possible, keep discussion of SS and its suitability as a wicking material on that thread, and non-SS-related solutions to the problem here on this one...that way we stay organized.

10 chars of Thanks

 

[Skeetorius]

is a post that lists exposure limits for drinking water


right and as i stated to this person this is the whole problem right here. just like the silica wick exposure issue. they keep reffering to the amount of silica dust needed to be breathed by the person to develop silicosis.
which in anycase we do not breath the wick dust and we do not drink the ejuice. even then the most extreme vapors use what 15 20 ml a day? this doesnt equate to even one fluide ounce if you were drinking it.
just breathing the heated wire is exposing us to more nickle chromium and aluminum then we will )i believe) ever be able to vape in our juice.


the mostly unoxidised wicks do not leech back into the tank because 90% of the mesh is not coated in burned chromium and reduces this issue even further.

in the end there can be lead and gasoline detected in the fluid. but someone has to quit goofing off and PROVE it is in the vapor not the fluid.and this is where ALL this debate keeps failing.

I guess what concerns me is.....if its in the fluid....and the fluid is vaporized. Where would it go if it DIDN'T make it into the vapor. Right back onto the wick?

Also...where are you getting your info on our exposure to nickel chromium and aluminum. What type of wire? Kanthal? Just asking....not "questioning". I like to be complete.

Also....the issue IS the oxidized wicks....we are oxidizing them and then letting them sit in either higher acidity juice or lower acidity juice. Either way, the SS mesh is oxidized prior to our vaping right? And it is soaking in our fluid right? We are talking about SS wicks right....not silica or anything else?

Please please correct me if my understanding is incorrect. WE are oxidizing these wicks with torches.

 

[Skeetorius]

Another good question what is the solubility of chromium in our fluid. Probablly very minimal. I will look this up as well.

 

[Thrasher]

Also...where are you getting your info on our exposure to nickel chromium and aluminum. What type of wire? Kanthal? Just asking....not "questioning". I like to be complete.

just like the other tests going on this is speculation on my part as this is what the heating wire is composed of and when heated the base materials will be released as this is what causes the wire to degrade and become brittle.

while i personally dont torch the crap out of my wicks, my juice also doesnt darken as in said samples. if the chromium is free floating which i believe is not the case as it is also attached to the burned and carbonized juice present.

when is the last time you vaped a tank till it was completely dry? dont you get down to the bottom and say that looks nasty and clean it out then add new juice?
I

guess what concerns me is.....if its in the fluid....and the fluid is vaporized. Where would it go if it DIDN'T make it into the vapor. Right back onto the wick?

this is what i have issues with omg its in my tank so im not going to even try to test the vapor because it MUST be there.

as i would like to be proven wrong on this and I would also love to find a suitable replacement but 3 weeks of vaping ceramic isnt conclusive either, as like the other person 3m and a few other companies would not recommend this for something being inhaled.

my problem is not whats being found but the way they are finding it. links to amounts needed to be drank or dust inhalation do not include what we are doing and the way we are doing it and are slightly irrelevant beyond presenting toxicity levels, and i am just pleading with people before we go off on a fearfest to do the correct methodology and to test and find this in the vapor not the atty..


i did not mean to hijack this thread and out of respect for V i will leave it at this.

 

[JD1]

I use cotton covered ss in my duds. Works well for me, but I usually vape at ~ 5.5 watts, and I don't think it could be pushed much above nine or ten watts. (I haven't tried though, so I really don't know)

Search utube for Quigsworth1 for a couple of ideas. I use the 'bluegrasslovers' method that he shows in one video. Another way is to wrap a thread around the ss and he shows that in a different video. Another way is to wrap the ss in a couple layers of cheese cloth. They all work but I prefer the bluegrasslovers method.

Edit: I'd like to add that another benefit to wrapping the ss in cotton is that it slows down the run back. I shorten the ss wick and put cotton around the whole thing and even hanging down at the bottom. Another way is to put some threads down the center hole as he shows in one video.

 

[j4mmin42]

just like the other tests going on this is speculation on my part as this is what the heating wire is composed of and when heated the base materials will be released as this is what causes the wire to degrade and become brittle.

while i personally dont torch the crap out of my wicks, my juice also doesnt darken as in said samples. if the chromium is free floating which i believe is not the case as it is also attached to the burned and carbonized juice present.

when is the last time you vaped a tank till it was completely dry? dont you get down to the bottom and say that looks nasty and clean it out then add new juice?
Ithis is what i have issues with omg its in my tank so im not going to even try to test the vapor because it MUST be there.

as i would like to be proven wrong on this and I would also love to find a suitable replacement but 3 weeks of vaping ceramic isnt conclusive either, as like the other person 3m and a few other companies would not recommend this for something being inhaled.

my problem is not whats being found but the way they are finding it. links to amounts needed to be drank or dust inhalation do not include what we are doing and the way we are doing it and are slightly irrelevant beyond presenting toxicity levels, and i am just pleading with people before we go off on a fearfest to do the correct methodology and to test and find this in the vapor not the atty..


i did not mean to hijack this thread and out of respect for V i will leave it at this.

It's all good, you have some really good points.

Good, solid conclusive evidence either way is necessary for many reasons, not the least of which would be to know exactly what we can and can't do. And also, let's just say it does come back conclusively that we shouldn't be using this stuff. At that point, people will actually start to change what they're doing, and that's what is most important.

Unfortunately, for inhalants, it can take 20 years for conclusive, human evidence to appear.

This is why I'm trying to be proactive. It's because I got into this to potentially negate the health risks associated with smoking, and if I'm not, then something has to change. Beyond that, I've also been making big lifestyle changes, as far as eating right, working out, etc. in the past few months, and that has left me clear-headed- and obviously has factored into my response to all this, albeit indirectly.

 

[Skeetorius]

Another good question what is the solubility of chromium in our fluid. Probablly very minimal. I will look this up as well.

UPDATE: Okay. Just some data to mull over. These are only single sources from the net, but seem reliable. Not some random dude's site, rather chemical sites / manufacture sites.

1. Chromium (VI) oxide is an example of an excellently water soluble chromium compounds, solubility = 1680 g/L.

Here is the source: Chromium (Cr) and water

2. Im using SS 316 L: Good oxidation resistance in intermittent service to 870°C and in continuous service to 925°C. Continuous use of 316 in the 425-860°C range is not recommended if subsequent aqueous corrosion resistance is important. Grade 316L is more resistant to carbide precipitation and can be used in the above temperature range. Grade 316H has higher strength at elevated temperatures and is sometimes used for structural and pressure-containing applications at temperatures above about 500°C.

Here is the source: Stainless Steel - Grade 316 - Properties, Fabrication and Applications

3. A propane torch is a tool for burning the flammable gas propane (C3H8). The maximum adiabatic flame temperature a propane torch can achieve with air is 2,268 kelvins (1,995 °C/3,623 °F)

Here is the source: Propane torch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Therefore, it seems to me, when we oxidize these SS meshes (at least 316L) we are MOST LIKELY depositing a highly soluble compound that our liquids are a solvent for since they are at least partially water.

I know VN wanted this stuff only in the other section, but I thought it relevant to help us along in our push for a better component for our wicks.