Li-Ion Batteries - THE TRUTH
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How'd you manage to measure that with the battery connected? Don't tell me you just connected the meter directly to the bare terminals with your meter set to measure mA's? Yikes!
All I'd need to measure this properly is a dead battery for the fitting. That, or 5 hands to hold the leads against those darn threads.
All I'd need to measure this properly is a dead battery for the fitting. That, or 5 hands to hold the leads against those darn threads.
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Thanks Magnus and asidrave for clearing up some of the misinformation that gets passed around about Li-Ion batteries.
I vote for stickiness as well!
I vote for stickiness as well!
Good info Magnus and adisrave - I work in an industry that deals with Li-Ion batteries as part of our primary product and all the information you posted is accurate. It also happens to apply directly to my e-cig experiences so far. I was always confused by the conflicting accounts I read here since they contradicted my own experiences and knowledge.
Not with the battery connected although with some battery mods that will be possible at some point. Yes to the bare terminal. Please explain "Yikes!" to me as I know of no other way to test amps with my meter.
I personally think the whole battery/charger thing is not very well covered and a very possible source of battery problems, early death, ect. There is not much solid info on this subject that an easy search can find and what is said is rather vague.
Lorddrek
I thought that might be the case. Like you say, proper test equipment and a willingness to cut wires is the way to go.
Being 100% new to this whole e-cig thing, reading so much misinformation in print and in videos here regarding the charging of lithium ion batteries for these e-cigarettes is unsettling.
As this thread indicates already, it seems as if there are many users that have taken the battery treatment methods to older types and applied it to Lithium Ion batteries.
This thread should definitely be a sticky, it looks like you have many people pushing methods based on superstition rather then reality.
I wonder how much of the other stuff is also based on hunches vs fact.
Thanks for taking the time Magnus
As this thread indicates already, it seems as if there are many users that have taken the battery treatment methods to older types and applied it to Lithium Ion batteries.
This thread should definitely be a sticky, it looks like you have many people pushing methods based on superstition rather then reality.
I wonder how much of the other stuff is also based on hunches vs fact.
Thanks for taking the time Magnus
Don't forget that Radio controlled planes use volitile Lithium Polymer batteries and not the Lithium-ion batteries that ecigs use.
A direct comparison may yeild inconsistent data.
Much as you wouldn't directly compare Nickle-metal Hydride(Ni-Mh) and Nickel-Cadmium(Ni-Cd). similar but not identical.
A direct comparison may yeild inconsistent data.
Much as you wouldn't directly compare Nickle-metal Hydride(Ni-Mh) and Nickel-Cadmium(Ni-Cd). similar but not identical.
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All I am trying to determine in this thread is the charger function with my M401 Pilot. I have heard many say to ignore the light when it turns green. I used to hook mine up before bed and take off in the morning. My concern now is overcharging. Some questions I would like to answer.
When the light goes green is it charged?
My 200ma battery charged for 3 hours before the light turned green. I was able to get heavy vaping out of it for several hours. This leads me to believe it was fully charged.
When the light is green does it still charge?
I tested this with a multimeter and it read 114ma but the light did turn red while doing this so this may not apply while green. If charge power is truly cut off when light goes green then additional charge time is not needed. Putting testable leads between the charger and battery would help read what goes on during charging.
I wish I could remember more about my Li/Po radio control days as it was new tech and much info and testing was being done at that time. I realize lithium polymer and lithium ion are not the same but they are not all that different either.
We need more info and some simple testing would provide us with some answers. I would think this should interest our suppliers who end up replacing bad batteries that may have been unknowingly abused in some way.
Lorddrek
When the light goes green is it charged?
My 200ma battery charged for 3 hours before the light turned green. I was able to get heavy vaping out of it for several hours. This leads me to believe it was fully charged.
When the light is green does it still charge?
I tested this with a multimeter and it read 114ma but the light did turn red while doing this so this may not apply while green. If charge power is truly cut off when light goes green then additional charge time is not needed. Putting testable leads between the charger and battery would help read what goes on during charging.
I wish I could remember more about my Li/Po radio control days as it was new tech and much info and testing was being done at that time. I realize lithium polymer and lithium ion are not the same but they are not all that different either.
We need more info and some simple testing would provide us with some answers. I would think this should interest our suppliers who end up replacing bad batteries that may have been unknowingly abused in some way.
Lorddrek
the charger is irrelevent. Those that ship with the majority of kits are un-protected. the charger will just keep pumping in the voltage regardless if your un-protected battery is full capacity or not. result , Un-protected battery -un-protected charger -forgetfull user-fire.
Ecig batteries are protected. Part of the chippery of the circuit board is a charge protection circuit. When the battery measure 4.2volt the chip cuts the charge pathway preventing anymore power into the battery.
If the battery is still connected to the charger and the battery in idle state drops to 4.1volt the battery charge cicuit opens up the charge pathway and allow another 0.1 volt back into the battery before again closing the pathway at 4.2 volt.
so , If your light turns green the battery isnt accepting more charge but your charger is still producing current to it but the charge protection chip breaks the circuit preventing it reaching the lithium cell.
Light = green : battery charged, battery accepting no further charge.
Light = Red : charge circuit is made , therefore battery is telling charger it's not at capacity.
If your happy to trust a Really cheap bit of cicuit board not to fail ( and we all know how unreliable these batteries are ) and leave them to charge un-attended or worse over-night while you sleep, then your either very naive or have a great fire escape system.
Ecig batteries are protected. Part of the chippery of the circuit board is a charge protection circuit. When the battery measure 4.2volt the chip cuts the charge pathway preventing anymore power into the battery.
If the battery is still connected to the charger and the battery in idle state drops to 4.1volt the battery charge cicuit opens up the charge pathway and allow another 0.1 volt back into the battery before again closing the pathway at 4.2 volt.
so , If your light turns green the battery isnt accepting more charge but your charger is still producing current to it but the charge protection chip breaks the circuit preventing it reaching the lithium cell.
Light = green : battery charged, battery accepting no further charge.
Light = Red : charge circuit is made , therefore battery is telling charger it's not at capacity.
If your happy to trust a Really cheap bit of cicuit board not to fail ( and we all know how unreliable these batteries are ) and leave them to charge un-attended or worse over-night while you sleep, then your either very naive or have a great fire escape system.
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I too believe this however the battery (when functioning properly) is not seeing this voltage after charged. Not that it can't happen but please show me a case where a fire occured. People charge the crap put of chinese cellphones all the time.
Great! However I am (and have been) talking about my M401 Pilot so my knowledge is limited there. But I am witnessing similar battery processor functions in regard to charge cutoff.
Yes I believe this as well. Everything seems to place charge control in the battery not the charger.
Actually red means battery is accepting a charge, not at it's capacity. Green would indicate that.
Like I said before show me some data, picture, post, anything. I am very familiar with Lithium batteries exploding in a ball of flame but I doubt these have much punch. Please show me a single cell 200ma lithium anything catch fire and you will see it is rather minor. Just don't charge near the drapes...
I love how you think an unattended overnight charge is so foreign for you. I'll bet many more than you think do it. A proper suggestion would have been to keep it away from flammables.
Lorddrek
haha , ye i c0cked up the green light red light thing , so have corrected my post to show.
as for proving batteries can explode...please, it's hardly a mythical concept.
YouTube - Lithium Ion battery fire
Lithium is combustible with contact to Oxygen. It's not a swelling and leaking like NiCd's its a swelling, bursting and combustion regardless of cell size.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5f0VCoFuFM
Just to add . Ofcourse most ecig batteries are encased in the tubing that make the ecig. I have no idea what protection it would offer if overcharge occured. Also there are ecigs that use non-enclosed batteries when charging like the Sd , the lady pipe and the Janty Kissbox usb lead.
as for proving batteries can explode...please, it's hardly a mythical concept.
YouTube - Lithium Ion battery fire
Lithium is combustible with contact to Oxygen. It's not a swelling and leaking like NiCd's its a swelling, bursting and combustion regardless of cell size.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5f0VCoFuFM
Just to add . Ofcourse most ecig batteries are encased in the tubing that make the ecig. I have no idea what protection it would offer if overcharge occured. Also there are ecigs that use non-enclosed batteries when charging like the Sd , the lady pipe and the Janty Kissbox usb lead.
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hmmm , well i see two youtube vids of lithium-ion batteries being overcharged and combusting in my post..
Since your getting agitated I'll just bugger off and let you get on with it.
before i do so , the OP is a good source of information and should be stickied.
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Well when you write like this...
You should expect a similar response. Over 1000 posts and you still have not learned this?
Never disputed this. Not one time. You came out of the gate sounding like this was a problem with E-Cig batteries. I asked for proof of this. Showing me a massive computer battery and a R/C battery being overcharged is not it.
You sound like you charge your E-Cig batteries in the fireplace or an ammo box. You are alone in this practice I assure you.
I have over charged a lithium battery on purpose before. 10 times the size of a E-Cig battery. Yes it popped into quite the little fireball. Let me tell you what would happen to an overcharged E-Cig battery. The LED cap would pop out and a very quick flame would shoot out quite similar to a bottle rocket only not nearly as long. Yes this could start a fire.
So while you bring up a valid safety concern your abrasive alarmist attitude negates whatever positive points you tried to make. Maybe you can work on this during your next thousand posts?
I hate to break it to you but if someone sold you those packs as Li-Ion batteries, you were scammed. A li-ion cell's nominal voltage is always 3.1-3.2V. The batteries if 1.2 volts were NiMh.
That may not necessarily be the case, assuming you are right and the charge pump is on the battery itself, lacking data pins on the battery the charger may measure current drop to tell when the battery is done charging. This becomes a problem when the last 10% of the charge cycle of the battery as it current is reduced to trickle charge the last part. This could trip a current sensor in the charging base triggering the green light despite not being fully charged, and may also explain the anecdotal evidence showing longer charge for charging past green.
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