Man Severely Injured After eCigarette Blows Up In His Face

[edyle]

A guy in another thread so continuous just means for hours on end and pulse means anywhere from 30 to 90 seconds cuz these batteries were designed for power tools. Idk how true that is. But if thats true but if it is. We have way more headroom on these batteries than we think. Considering most people wouldn't pull on a e cig for more than 10 seconds max

More like 30 to 90 milliseconds.

As for continuous:
a 2000 mAh cell is supposed to be able to deliver
2 amps for an hour
or 20 amps for 6 minutes.
So 20 amps CDR could only go on for 6 minutes in this example, not hours on end.

Based on a timescale of 6 minutes (360 seconds), a 'pulse' might conceivably be 1/100 or 1/1000, so that's 0.3 or less, or to be generous 3 seconds or less

 

[Robino1]

Okay and someone or ones may have stated this and I missed, if so sorry to repeat.

I started looking into this more and it doesn't add up to me. The battery went boom supposedly, okay but how does the roof of his mouth have a hole, he has a broke finger and neck.

Look at the pics, mod still looks pretty solid, there's still a decent amount of glass attached to the Atty and the drip tip is there.

I don't see if it had that much force how the tank is still on the mod, to mess up the roof of his mouth, seems to me the head in the tank should have blown out at the very least.

The only thing I can figure is cheap/ knock off battery or wrong chemistry battery, that vented with flame. I'm wondering if it isn't exactly a hole in the roof of his mouth but more so burned.

Hand looks burned but not sure how a finger broke unless the back side of the mod has a hole in it. Then too have no idea about a broke neck unless he jerked back so hard.

Maybe I missed some pics of this mod showing a lot of destruction and if so ignore what I've said, but this seems like something else going on or being blown out of proportion.

I'm guessing (repeat guessing) that the tube separated and the portion, that still has the tank on it, shot into his mouth. If you look at the pictures, the tube is in two sections.

Again: this is all speculation. I doubt the whole story will ever be known.

 

[Scotticus93]

On an unrelated note. Does anyone recommend the atlantis 2? Other than this safety issue. If used properly. Is the flavor any good? I heard it's just all clouds and no flavor

 

[Mooch]

Edit:
Another thing that grind my gear how it could explode basicly right away, If the battery is venting you'll feel it before it'll go into explotion mode. Due the severe heat it'll make due a vent. Unless this guy wasn't using an IMR cell. Then i could see why it exploded right away.
Even if you were to use a mech mod without vent holes, the mod will get realy hot before it goes to chaos.

Any chemistry battery can vent and or burst very quickly. It happens at different temperatures for the different chemistries, but it can happen for any of them. It just depends on how fast the internal pressure and temperature is increasing. Our high-amp batteries are great for vaping but it also means that they are more susceptible to going into thermal runaway instead of venting first.

Internal heating of a battery is determined by the classic power formula, Watts = Amps-Squared x Resistance. So while the lower internal resistance of these high-amp batteries can lead to lower heating when using them, it allows a lot more current to flow when short-circuited due to the higher voltage being available during the short. This increases the amount of heat by the square of the current, and that increases the heat a lot.

During a dead short the temperature and pressure can easily increase to a point where the battery will burst, or go into thermal runaway, before it has a chance to vent or the heat has a chance to reach the outside of the battery case. The internal heating is very localized at certain spots, not distributed evenly across the battery. Thermal runaway can start in one of these small spots and still continue to spread even if the battery eventually vents because the battery is still above its thermal runaway threshold temperature internally.

 

[nyiddle]

During a dead short the temperature and pressure can easily increase to a point where the battery will burst, or go into thermal runaway, before it has a chance to vent or the heat has a chance to reach the outside of the battery case.

This is a thing that isn't mentioned nearly enough.

The pressures from venting, even with vent holes (unless it's like.. the AR mod) are too great for the mod to adequately vent in time. It makes me giggle a little bit when people say, "This mod has great venting." -- How do you know? Did you actually discharge a battery in the mod and see if it vented in time for the mod to not explode? Probably not, and "probably not" is my response to "great venting."

 

[bobwho77]

A lot of good advice on how to avoid these things can be found at many R/C hobby shops, if your local vape store can't help. Modelers were among the first people to start using these batteries, due to their high power to weight ratios, and they had to learn about it tthe same way.

 

[DC2]

I always wished we could just ban stupid people... Life is dangerous, no one makes it out alive.

Darwin was working on that.

But we seem determined to overrule him...
Heartless, I know.

What to do...
What to do...

The real pretend world is thinking we can educate users on safer use of mechs to the point where it is not a problem. With a new generation of users every few months, it's not going to happen.

It always amazes me in these types of threads how few people get your point above.
But BIG WARNINGS will go a long way in helping alleviate the problem.

sounds like they are trying to limit the total amount of juice on hand that can cause a potential poisoning....

I'm sure that's the excuse they are using.
Whether they are ignorant, stupid, or politicians is what is in question.

There MAY have been two children killed by such means, and absolutely zero adults.
But the conclusions of those two cases have never made it to the news.

And some of us here have tried REALLY hard to get final determinations with no luck.

So we are left with a potential for death that is extremely minimal...
At least when compared to just about everything else.

I know and that is really great! but we should move a step up and ask modders to include in their boxes as well

a mech mod has no electronics, so yes, a well designed mech has nothing to go wrong that isn't user error, if you know how to use it perfectly then there won't be any surprises (like a chip going haywire)
you DO need how to use it

The point I always try to make is that MOST don't even know they NEED to know how to use it.
That is the problem we face, no matter what anyone here says.

 

[Mooch]

I don run that high of amps myself. I stay within reasonable range and use a samsung 25r in a regulated mod. I was once fascinated with cloud chasing but it seems dumb to me. Now someone was telling me to buy a higher capacity battery for more battery life. But idk whether to do that or give myself that headroom in a regulated device. I was looking at getting lg he2 next or sony vtc4. Both reasonably priced cuz you get a couple for 15 bucks. Which do y'all recommend?

All depends on how much current you'll be drawing from them. The HE2 is the lowest performer in the HE4, VTC4, VTC5, 25R, HG2, 30Q crowd though.

This table might help a bit towards choosing a safe battery, which also means it will be running cooler and lasting longer...

18650 Safety Grades -- Picking a Safe Battery to Vape With | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[TheRac25]

guys guys, its ok, the government will protect us from this menace

 

[WattWick]

There aren't a lot of comparable uses for our batteries. They are indeed used in power tools and cars and laptops and whatnot. Which these discharge ratings are intended for; a battery delivering power to something at a certain rate. This rate being lower than the speed the battery heats up at - at that specific drain.

However, none of these applications do what we do: Use the battery to heat up one end of the tube it's sitting in. Closest would be flashlights. From what I gather, those heavily into flashlights preach safety and Ohm law as much as we do. A hot metal tube is not the ideal environment for a battery to keep its cool.

 

[Lessifer]

I see you have been around for less then a year. Venting and blowups have been going on since 2010, and they are happening with increasing frequency as people have pushed the limits. As always happens with these types of situations, it is very likely we are hearing of a small percentage of the actual events.

As I said in my original statement, a voluntary withdrawal of mechs is not going to happen. There is just to much money to be made as the profit margins are high with mechs. I am fully aware of reality. The real pretend world is thinking we can educate users on safer use of mechs to the point where it is not a problem. With a new generation of users every few months, it's not going to happen.

The reality is that these events will continue to happen, and it will continue to be a big problem for those of us advocating for THR. The only real hope is that mechs fall out of favor to the point where few are using them.



If you do really believe that your mechs are safer then a well designed regulated, as in Provari or Evolv, that constantly monitors battery health, you have crawled a long way down the rabbit hole of delusion. Certainly not someone I would trust to give me good advice.

I know of no one on this thread that has called for a ban, though this is the second time you have claimed it.

Your comparison to trucks is a bit bizarre, but instructive in its own way. Of course it is illegal for teenagers to drive a large truck (you actually need a special license to drive one), but essentially anyone can buy a mech and use one, including teens. I am really not at all sure what the point is.

I don't think mechs will go away, because there is a market for them, not the least part of which is those worried about the availability of hardware after regulation begins.

With knowledge they can be as safe as a regulated device, though some are better than others, just as some regulated devices are better than others.

Pointing to the few incidents of harm related to mechs and saying people should no longer use them is akin to pointing to the number of people who die each year due to being trapped in a submerged vehicle by a seatbelt and saying people should no longer wear them. There is a potential for harm, that potential can be mitigated by knowledge and experience. I don't think this is a "big problem" for THR, though it is one of the more fear inspiring topics. One would hope that fear would inspire people to learn about safety, but people are lazy.

 

[Scotticus93]

All depends on how much current you'll be drawing from them. The HE2 is the lowest performer in the HE4, VTC4, VTC5, 25R, HG2, 30Q crowd though.

This table might help a bit towards choosing a safe battery, which also means it will be running cooler and lasting longer...

18650 Safety Grades -- Picking a Safe Battery to Vape With | E-Cigarette Forum

I thought he2 was a "35 amp" battery?

 

[Mooch]

I thought he2 was a "35 amp" battery?

The HE2 is a 20A battery that some have claimed a 35A "pulse" rating for. But, these pulse ratings are meaningless.

Battery pulse ratings are useless! | E-Cigarette Forum

There are no 18650 batteries with a genuine rating over 30A! | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Mike 586]

A guy in another thread so continuous just means for hours on end and pulse means anywhere from 30 to 90 seconds cuz these batteries were designed for power tools. Idk how true that is. But if thats true but if it is. We have way more headroom on these batteries than we think. Considering most people wouldn't pull on a e cig for more than 10 seconds max

30 to 90 seconds? Yeah well maybe a Harbor Freight tool that melts the first time you try using it.

If these tools are hitting pulse currents, we're talking tenths of a second. Since they're all microprocessor controlled now days and pulse width modulation is built right into them, soft starts are probably universally standard completely eliminating the issues of inrush current. Upon a jam causing locked rotor current the microprocessors are so fast that the tools shut down almost instantly upon getting jammed.

That's been my experience anyway with brands like Hilti, Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, Milwaukee and the rest.

Lithium powered tools aren't much like the older ones with variable resistor switches, beefy motors you could just push until your sense of smell and how hot your hand got, let you know when the tool had enough.

Anyway as far as pushing past CDR ratings and into pulse ratings. Well the types that love defying the odds do often become statistics that make for entertaining conversation eventually.

 

[Racehorse]

Let nature run its course. The stupid will kill themselves off pretty quick then the world would be a better place. Keep them alive and they will support running every one else's lives...

I've noticed you post stuff like this often. My personal observations: Stupid people tend to call other other people stupid.

Most individuals are unable to objectively evaluate their own abilities, intellectual and otherwise.

There's actually been a lot of studies on this. Not surprisingly, those whose performance(s) on the tests put them in the lowest bottom of the pyramid --------were the very people who overestimated their own abilities by rating themselves as above average.


(Top performers will often underrate themselves)

Not really surprising. There seems to be a connection here: When one lacks the tools to self-assess with a healthy dose of humility, they also seem to lack the tools to attain scores in many other areas that would put them further toward the top of the pyramid.

I live in a town where most everyone is uneducated, work low wage jobs, etc......Yet, it's the ONLY place I've ever lived where I hear this oft-repeated "meme" about how stupid people are. Maybe it's a self reflection? Maybe it's political (this is a big tea party affiliated town)?

I have to say, I really don't get it.

Besides, knowledge has nothing to do with being stupid or not being stupid. Learning about vaping safe only requires knowledge......


Sorry, but my pet peeve is those who believe that other people are unnecessary --- but that THEY themselves are somehow *essential* and *DESERVE* to live.

 

[SomeTexan]

I've noticed you post stuff like this often. My personal observations: Stupid people tend to call other other people stupid.

Most individuals are unable to objectively evaluate their own abilities, intellectual and otherwise.

There's actually been a lot of studies on this. Not surprisingly, those whose performance(s) on the tests put them in the lowest bottom of the pyramid --------were the very people who overestimated their own abilities by rating themselves as above average.


(Top performers will often underrate themselves)

Not really surprising. There seems to be a connection here: When one lacks the tools to self-assess with a healthy dose of humility, they also seem to lack the tools to attain scores in many other areas that would put them further toward the top of the pyramid.

I live in a town where most everyone is uneducated, work low wage jobs, etc......Yet, it's the ONLY place I've ever lived where I hear this oft-repeated "meme" about how stupid people are. Maybe it's a self reflection? Maybe it's political (this is a big tea party affiliated town)?

I have to say, I really don't get it.

I've know people with multiple degrees from Ivy League schools that have absolutly no common sense. When I owned a machine shop, I had an employee that didn't finish 8th grade, but he constantly made the college educated designers look like blithering idiots. He made it to his grave (made it to 93 years) with all of his body parts intact and still attached to him, and yet an Ivy League guy I employed had an accident with a toaster that almost killed him and did burn his house down. Uneducated doesn't mean stupid, quite the opposite in my experience. Do you really believe that an education means someone isn't stupid?

I've done a lot of dangerous things in my life, and having a thorough understanding of how things work and a mind for my safety has kept me in one piece. I sure as heck wouldn't use an electronic device in my face without understanding the basics of how it works and how to use it safely. stupid is as stupid does, as they say. Education has nothing to do with it...

But, when you say tea party, that explains a lot. You seem to think I'm a conservative? How wrong you are... Here is a little demonstration for you. Stand up and face a wall. Turn 3/4 of a turn to your right. You will be facing to the left of your original position. You can do the same thing only turn left instead of right if you really want. The results are similar but opposite. I'm not dumb enough to fall for one side or the other politically. While the ignorant masses are arguing left vs right, the 2 side are shaking hands with each other behind your back. Think about that a little.

I've never claimed to be the smartest person around, that would be stupid. I just know what I need to know to stay alive and in one piece, and yet still do what I need to do.

 

[Racehorse]

I just know what I need to know to stay alive and in one piece, and yet still do what I need to do.

This assumes that you have control over everything.

There will always be situations in which one's skillset, education or non-education, or body of knowledge and experience, doesn't "cover" a situation. There are situations which are just tragic and/or random.

There are no smart people or stupid people, just people being smart or being stupid.

Calling people stupid is just another form of name-calling, isn't it? In a topic with "man severely injured" in the title, name calling just doesn't have a place, does it? This is a tragedy. For this man, and his family.

How would you like it, if in the face of an tragic accident in your family, somebody said " the stupid will kill themselves off pretty quick then the world would be a better place" ?

On a forum where people are supposed to care about vaping and other vapers, this seems like a toxic remark, and the kind of sentiment really baffles me.



(We are probably all pretty stupid here, seeing that we were dumb enough to take up smoking in the first place. I definitely count it as one of the stupidest things I've ever done. )

 

[SomeTexan]

This assumes that you have control over everything.

There will always be situations in which one's skillset, education or non-education, or body of knowledge and experience, doesn't "cover" a situation. There are situations which are just tragic and/or random.

There are no smart people or stupid people, just people being smart or being stupid.

Calling people stupid is just another form of name-calling, isn't it? In a topic with "man severely injured" in the title, name calling just doesn't have a place, does it? This is a tragedy. For this man, and his family.

How would you like it, if in the face of an tragic accident in your family, somebody said " the stupid will kill themselves off pretty quick then the world would be a better place" ?

On a forum where people are supposed to care about vaping and other vapers, this seems like a toxic remark, and the kind of sentiment really baffles me.



(We are probably all pretty stupid here, seeing that we were dumb enough to take up smoking in the first place. I definitely count it as one of the stupidest things I've ever done. )

I don't think I have control over everything, but I do my best to control what I can. It's called risk management.

This is 2015, an hour on the Internet can put a great deal of information right in front of you. From there you make an educated decision. Heck, 5 min will give you a good idea what the risks are.

I beg to differ...

In the first post you quoted I made a generic statement. I didn't call any one person stupid. But, name calling can have its place. Make someone feel like a complete idiot and there is a chance they will strive to make sure they don't get laughed at again. I could care less about the touchy feely bs. Why sugar coat the situation? Stupidity is becoming more common because of stupidity recieving too much sympathy. The only tragedy is that he probably won't take responsibility for his actions and will blame vaping for his stupidity.

My family believes in tough love. If it was their stupidity, they will catch hell for it. And they will do their best to make sure they don't look stupid again. "The burned hand teaches best" but that doesn't work if they pass the blame. If I screw up and hurt myself, I expect to catch hell for it.

So we should overlook the fact that he got the press involved and added fuel to the fire against us? I would rather people know that vapers consider him an idiot that shouldn't be allowed to touch a light switch without supervision. We, as a group are more responsible that that and don't want people like that tainting our name.

We all make mistakes. It is how we deal with them that defines us. I never went crying to the press that big tobacco forced me to smoke. I did my research and found a way to quit. I did my research and learned how to do it as safely as possible too. I don't blame my family for smoking around me as a kid, I still made the choice to buy a pack and start smoking myself. My choice, no ones else's. If I would blame anyone for me smoking, it would be the anti smoking stuff they forced down my throat I school. I sure didn't want to be like those self righteous ......... Even then, it was my choice.

 

[Racehorse]

So we should overlook the fact that he got the press involved and added fuel to the fire against us?

If the threat of "bad press" elicits more emotion than a fellow human being having their face or a body part blown off, then the politics of vaping itself has become more important than the human beings it is supposed to serve, and this community has lost it's way.

Its easy to take "cognitive shortcuts" because it allows us to feel removed from pain and tragedy -----"tragedy at a distance" is so much easier to take. Perhaps calling people stupid, or blaming them for bad press, is just a way to make it even more comfortable for ourselves?

You know what true stupidity is? To me it's not thinking things out. We know the press sensationalizes stories, the news singles out the bad news. But-----each of us has control over how we put this in context.....and we can also control our reaction. That is how we can use our intelligence, and not be stupid.

I am asking you to question your *reaction*. Does calling this vaper stupid and/or blaming them for "more bad press" qualify as a thoughtful reaction? To my mind, no.

How is this different than an ANTZ saying to a smoker dying an agonizing death from lung cancer: "You were stupid---Tough Love, Baby! the world is better off without you."

"The burned hand teaches best" but that doesn't work if they pass the blame.

Well let me take you over to the The Burn Center at Arkansas Children's Hospital and you can say that to some of the parents, as well as their children who are the patients there, as well as the nursing/medical staff, too. (Hopefully they won't be as coarse or I suspect your head will hurt when they toss you out onto the hard sidewalk.)

The "Tough love" you speak of isn't having part of your face blown off....no matter how it happened.

What would I consider a normal human reaction to an event like this? Vapers saying they are moved to write this fellow vaper a get well card.

Instead, it's always about how the injured person didn't aptly "serve the cause" and they are blamed for putting vaping in a bad light, on top of being stupid......(even though that wasn't their plan.......that's why these things are called *accidents.* )

I would rather people know that vapers consider him an idiot that shouldn't be allowed to touch a light switch without supervision. We, as a group are more responsible that that and don't want people like that tainting our name.

I would rather people know that vapers are people, as fallible and fragile as all human beings, a responsible but also caring group of people, who possess the kind of tolerance we expect from others.

 

[KentA]

I sure as heck wouldn't use an electronic device in my face without understanding the basics of how it works and how to use it safely.

That's why I don't have a smartphone.