Well put. I don't show up in here often but I've got to say my MCM20 is still kicking beautifully. It's the only thing that follows me around any more.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
ManCaveMods - VW amd VV Wood Mods
- Thread starter matador
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
-
- Tags
- evic madvapes myvapejuice provari
- Status
Well put. I don't show up in here often but I've got to say my MCM20 is still kicking beautifully. It's the only thing that follows me around any more.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
I think my wife and I are now set for life.
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. And awesome!!!
What a wonderful pic, Big Fran!
So I have been in love with the DNA 20 ever since I heard about it last winter. Been waiting to see if anyone picks it up to mass produce it since I am not technically inclined to make one myself yet. Since however I have discovered Genesis and sub ohm setups that get me 20+ watts on a mech mod. Since everyone here is MCM aficionados, have a couple questions. From the spec sheet I see that 1 ohm is the lowest resistance.
So with a low ohm setup, is there a delay from trigger press to coil ignition? In general, using DNA 20 with a Genesis device how does it compare to a mech mod? I like the idea of 20 watt continuous power with an onboard battery meter, but I am wondering if it is not much of a difference weather I should just invest in more genesis devices?
So with a low ohm setup, is there a delay from trigger press to coil ignition? In general, using DNA 20 with a Genesis device how does it compare to a mech mod? I like the idea of 20 watt continuous power with an onboard battery meter, but I am wondering if it is not much of a difference weather I should just invest in more genesis devices?
Nanooks, I have a question of logic, and its one that continues to plague me with this whole genesis thing, why, when you have a regulated mod that can push a 3 ohm coil to 8 volts, would you even waste your time setting up a coil in the vicinity of 1 ohm?
Btw, just as a side note here, if you have a 1 ohm coil on a mech mod, there is no way you are getting 20 watts.
First let me say I am in no way an expert at electronics, or RBAs hence the question left here. That being said my experience thus far in Genesis devices is lower ohms burn hotter/faster/cleaner/better. Started at 2.5 ohm setup at 15 watts then dropped it and got a better vape.
Actually I have .7 ohm setup. New battery at 4.1 volts is 24 watts, at 3.7 volts drops to 19 watts as it gets lower I just grab a new battery.
Right now I have no primer puffs and good wattage, but not consistency. I can bump up to 1.1 - 1.2 ohm setup to use the DNA 20 board no problem, question is do I loose that instant on like a mech mod. Using 3 ohms @ 8 volts may work the same on the DNA 20 I don't know that's why I ask to those that may be using a Genesis on a DNA 20.
There is no way you're getting 4.1 to the coil, the best devices out there you might get 4v to the coil, and that's if you keep your contacts clean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjIFzmXGvXw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjIFzmXGvXw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I tell you what lets say 3.9 volts. That's still 21.7 watts and above 20 watts. 20 watts tastes good. Can you see now why I want a regulated 20 watts? So with your DNA 20 mod with your devices @ 20 watts do you take any primer puffs, and is there a trigger delay?
A very select few mech mods while being properly cleaned and maintaned achieve 3,9v underload with 1.5 ohm coil, fewer 4v for brief moments, but the difference from 1.5 ohms to 1 ohm is massive, let alone super low res coils of 0,8-0,6.
For ~15$ anyone can buy an inline meter and be massively dissapointed at the difference between claims and reality.
For ~15$ anyone can buy an inline meter and be massively dissapointed at the difference between claims and reality.
Nanooks, no one is trying to bash you or argue with you here, its that we are explaining the facts involved.
Personally, I doubt that most genesis users are getting anywhere near 20 watts, Matrixxu brought the other reason why, most batteries simply can't push those loads the way that many think.
The video I posted showed pretty clearly, a GG at 3.6 under load, and that was the best one, and with a 1.8 ohm coil on a fresh battery.
As for your questions, I don't understand the primer puff thing, this would be something to do more with the atty, not the device, and the trigger delay is one that I'm not sure about either, there will be some delay since its a device with electronics, that's unavoidable because of physics, but is not a pronounced or even overtly perceptible, at least to me, delay.
Personally, I doubt that most genesis users are getting anywhere near 20 watts, Matrixxu brought the other reason why, most batteries simply can't push those loads the way that many think.
The video I posted showed pretty clearly, a GG at 3.6 under load, and that was the best one, and with a 1.8 ohm coil on a fresh battery.
As for your questions, I don't understand the primer puff thing, this would be something to do more with the atty, not the device, and the trigger delay is one that I'm not sure about either, there will be some delay since its a device with electronics, that's unavoidable because of physics, but is not a pronounced or even overtly perceptible, at least to me, delay.
So how do you calculate watts with voltage under load? Since watts is V(square)/R=W, and the voltage under load is the voltage AFTER resistance how can you determine how many watts? Voltage under load is quite insignificant in determining the power of a device. Its like saying my device is 32. Ok what is 32? Well its 32. If you were to say I have 4 volts out of the 510 connecter and .7 ohm device at its 510 connector then you can do the math and say ok, put together I have a 22.85 watt device. Saying you have 3 volts under load is absolutely insignificant, however if you have 3 volts under load and after 5 seconds you have 2.5 volts then you can say that there is a voltage drop off of .5 volts which is important.
Primer puff= A puff immediately exhaled to purge under vapor. Coils haven't heated up to optimum temperature.
eVic with Boge LR XL carto @ 7.5 watts= .75 to 1 second to reach temp
AGA-T2 with Smok Telescope @ 20 watts= .1 to .2 seconds
Genesis with MCM20 or DNA20 device @ 20 watts = ??????
Primer puff= A puff immediately exhaled to purge under vapor. Coils haven't heated up to optimum temperature.
eVic with Boge LR XL carto @ 7.5 watts= .75 to 1 second to reach temp
AGA-T2 with Smok Telescope @ 20 watts= .1 to .2 seconds
Genesis with MCM20 or DNA20 device @ 20 watts = ??????
Argh.....the point that you aren't getting......a battery fresh off the charger, 4.1-4.2, by itself is 4.1-4.2, but, when you add the resistance of the coil, depending on the battery and the resistance of the coil, it will sag to 4.0 or 3.9, and that's with a good battery, and we haven't even factored in the resistance of the contacts of whatever device you are using yet.
Thus, you get the GG, one of the most well machined mechanical mods on the market, give 3.6 volts to a 1.8 ohm coil.
Let's assume, that a lower ohm coil won't make the voltage output sag any further than 3.6, even at 3.6 output in one of the best devices on the planet. A .7 ohm coil is looking at about 18.5 watts.
The P+ has very low voltage drop, comparatively speaking, I believe I saw somewhere that it gets about 3.8 to the coil.
hat would be about 20.5 watts with a .7 ohm coil.
This is why so many are huge fans of hybrids now, less contacts = less resistance = less voltage drop
Thus, you get the GG, one of the most well machined mechanical mods on the market, give 3.6 volts to a 1.8 ohm coil.
Let's assume, that a lower ohm coil won't make the voltage output sag any further than 3.6, even at 3.6 output in one of the best devices on the planet. A .7 ohm coil is looking at about 18.5 watts.
The P+ has very low voltage drop, comparatively speaking, I believe I saw somewhere that it gets about 3.8 to the coil.
hat would be about 20.5 watts with a .7 ohm coil.
This is why so many are huge fans of hybrids now, less contacts = less resistance = less voltage drop
It's a complicated topic and many get the terms confused.
When you measure voltage at the 510 circuit without an atty that is an open circuit measure and can tell the internal resistance of the device for mechanical mods and the effective voltage delivery for regulated mods like the dna20 although most won't do anything if they see no resistance.
When you measure the voltage at the atty terminals such as on a genny that is the under load voltage. On a mechanical mod the difference between open circuit and under load voltage can be used to calculate the internal resistance of the battery. On a regulated mod it's not much good since the circuitry manipulates the voltage except to see the effective voltage
When you measure the under load voltage on a 3 ohm coil vs a 1ohm coil the under of voltage will be closer to battery voltage as the voltage drop of the battery, mod and coil use less current than the 1 ohm coil which means it works more efficiently. With the higher currents of a 1 ohm coil more of that energy is lost to the inefficiencies inherent in the circuit so measuring under load voltage will be less than the battery voltage or open circuit voltage than the 3 ohm coils measurement.
Of course this really doesn't apply to regulated mods since we are then dealing with a circuit that samples the voltage and current and compensates to keep them at the desired levels. Also, they employ pulse width modulation so we aren't really talking about direct current anymore but the same characteristics apply in som forms. With an AW IMR cell I've never gotten the full 20 watts out of a DNA20 because the cell and circuit impedances work together to limit that level of output and measured it gets about 18.5 watts before it hits the current limit. Using dual 20c lipo cells on my own dna20 mod gets 20 watts easily because the internal cell impedance is much lower so the circuit is more efficient and requires less current to maintain that level.
For me, 13 watts or so is perfect with a 2.5 ohm coil and provides a satisfying vape. I don't try to recreate the low ohm coil experience on the mcm20, they are much different devices. I have iHybrids, Poldiacs, etc for that. Trying to compare a dna20 mod with a mech mod is really apples and oranges and not really what the dna20 is designed to do.
Hope this helps clear some of this up! MCM20 is a fantastic mod but if you want the low ohm coil experience you'd probably be better off with a mech mod.
When you measure voltage at the 510 circuit without an atty that is an open circuit measure and can tell the internal resistance of the device for mechanical mods and the effective voltage delivery for regulated mods like the dna20 although most won't do anything if they see no resistance.
When you measure the voltage at the atty terminals such as on a genny that is the under load voltage. On a mechanical mod the difference between open circuit and under load voltage can be used to calculate the internal resistance of the battery. On a regulated mod it's not much good since the circuitry manipulates the voltage except to see the effective voltage
When you measure the under load voltage on a 3 ohm coil vs a 1ohm coil the under of voltage will be closer to battery voltage as the voltage drop of the battery, mod and coil use less current than the 1 ohm coil which means it works more efficiently. With the higher currents of a 1 ohm coil more of that energy is lost to the inefficiencies inherent in the circuit so measuring under load voltage will be less than the battery voltage or open circuit voltage than the 3 ohm coils measurement.
Of course this really doesn't apply to regulated mods since we are then dealing with a circuit that samples the voltage and current and compensates to keep them at the desired levels. Also, they employ pulse width modulation so we aren't really talking about direct current anymore but the same characteristics apply in som forms. With an AW IMR cell I've never gotten the full 20 watts out of a DNA20 because the cell and circuit impedances work together to limit that level of output and measured it gets about 18.5 watts before it hits the current limit. Using dual 20c lipo cells on my own dna20 mod gets 20 watts easily because the internal cell impedance is much lower so the circuit is more efficient and requires less current to maintain that level.
For me, 13 watts or so is perfect with a 2.5 ohm coil and provides a satisfying vape. I don't try to recreate the low ohm coil experience on the mcm20, they are much different devices. I have iHybrids, Poldiacs, etc for that. Trying to compare a dna20 mod with a mech mod is really apples and oranges and not really what the dna20 is designed to do.
Hope this helps clear some of this up! MCM20 is a fantastic mod but if you want the low ohm coil experience you'd probably be better off with a mech mod.
Nanooks, many vapers get caught up in the math and numbers. Ultimately, they don't mean all that much more than a rough scale because there are so many variables in the overall combinations that it is near impossible to compare one EXACTLY against another. I think these folks are all trying to help.
As indicated by others above, there are underload voltage meters which fit between the device connector and atty/carto. here is one example (many venders carry them): Assembled Volt Indicator, Rev 2 The circuit is complete and they do give you an underload number (to a single decimal point). There are more sophisticated scopes and meters (check some of the more advanced youtube reviewers) you can buy and learn to use to get more exacting data.
- Every device has a different level of conductive efficiency = variable(s).
- Atty/carto model conductive efficiency = variables
- Different batts have different ratings for their ability to provide amps (a factor in ohms law beyond your basic equation) = variables (as Ohms Law MUST balance - if the batt is incapable of delivering the amps demanded by a combination, the result can be voltage drop-off underload). For example, according to an Ohms Law calculator, 20 watts at 1Ω demands 4.47 amps to deliver the power level while 20 watts at 2.8Ω only demands 2.67 amps. High Drain/IMR batts should be able to deliver the extreme levels but then you come across other variables in the electronics, switches, conductive efficiencies, etc.
- Battery condition and charging and chargers = variables
- Coil resistance changes over the life of the coil = variables
- Power delivery (all mech single batt, all mech series stacked, boosted, linear regulator, PWM - avg vs rms, etc. = variables
- Vaping style (hit length, hit frequency, etc.) = variables
- Juice wicking to coil = variables
In electronics, technically speaking (and many vapers argue this) watts are watts. But everything vaping is subjective. Personally, I notice a difference in LR watts vs higher voltage watts. I have tried many different combinations (not gen style - just have not had the time for RBAs but one day I'll try one) and I consistently prefer higher voltage watts. I have not yet tried any LR gear I found enjoyable. Obviously, others (yourself included) prefer LR. Juices bring in even more variables as the various diluents and flavors all can respond to heat differently. My juices are all higher content VG and VG burns at lower temps than PG. Some say fruit flavors do not stand up to heat as well as tobacco flavors, etc. As flavors vary in molecular composition, this too is easily understandable.
For my vaping tastes, and I have conducted experiments keeping all other variables constant ONLY changing the resistance for LR vs higher resistance watts, LR seems to heat too quickly (for me). This test is very easy on Evolv gear as long as the make and model of the atty/carto being compared remain the same (e.g. Boge 510 carto in 1.5Ω vs Boge 510 carto in 2.8Ω with same juice) - personally, I prefer the 801 model. I often multi-hit (some call this rolling the vapor) which can further overheat my vapor on LR but does not seem to on higher resistance coils. I just find the higher resistance/watts combos, in the atty/carto gear of my preference, just provides a richer and more full flavored vape. We can use all the math we want but in the end, math does not address the multitudes of variables (as you know, even different makes/models of attys and/or cartos of the same resistance at the same watts levels will produce different vape/TH/flavor characteristics).
While I am not an EE, I am quite familiar with Evolv gear. The DNA20d may well be the most advanced vape technology on the market today. Evolv gear provides amazingly consistent vape - possibly THE most consistent. There are some slight changes in the 4 different Evolv boards (Darwin, Kick, DNA12 and DNA20d). I do not have all the exact specifications but some of them "remember" the last power level delivered and as long as there are no changes between firings, they instantly deliver the same power. Others have a slight ramp-up but measured in milliseconds.
The combos you are describing I would call extreme vaping. This is my subjective interpretation. While I have tried many many many combinations over my three years of vaping, I have consistently found I enjoy a mere 8.5 watts using 2.8(ish) Ωs. Anything higher (watts) and I do not like the flavor/character of the vapor as it tastes singed to burnt to me.
I have more than one of every Evolv product made. Using the DNA20d, I actually find myself turning down the watts a bit to about 8. While electronically speaking watts ARE watts, the vapor - at the same watts level with the same juice and carto/atty - just tastes/feels hotter to me on DNA20d.
I think the very best advice you can receive on this topic is to just try a DNA20d device with your preferred gear, your juice and your taste-buds. Vape meets are great for this. Vapers are friendly and if you see someone with a DNA20d device (likely - especially at the larger events like the upcoming VapeBash), they may well let you try it with your preferred atty and juice. Vape stores can also offer opportunities because often the employees have various devices of their own; if you ask nicely, they may let you try theirs. If you come to VapeBash, come find me and I'll let you try mine. I am easy to find and many know me - just ask around and someone will point me out in the crowd.
I hope this is somehow helpful to you. Best wishes and Happy
As indicated by others above, there are underload voltage meters which fit between the device connector and atty/carto. here is one example (many venders carry them): Assembled Volt Indicator, Rev 2 The circuit is complete and they do give you an underload number (to a single decimal point). There are more sophisticated scopes and meters (check some of the more advanced youtube reviewers) you can buy and learn to use to get more exacting data.
- Every device has a different level of conductive efficiency = variable(s).
- Atty/carto model conductive efficiency = variables
- Different batts have different ratings for their ability to provide amps (a factor in ohms law beyond your basic equation) = variables (as Ohms Law MUST balance - if the batt is incapable of delivering the amps demanded by a combination, the result can be voltage drop-off underload). For example, according to an Ohms Law calculator, 20 watts at 1Ω demands 4.47 amps to deliver the power level while 20 watts at 2.8Ω only demands 2.67 amps. High Drain/IMR batts should be able to deliver the extreme levels but then you come across other variables in the electronics, switches, conductive efficiencies, etc.
- Battery condition and charging and chargers = variables
- Coil resistance changes over the life of the coil = variables
- Power delivery (all mech single batt, all mech series stacked, boosted, linear regulator, PWM - avg vs rms, etc. = variables
- Vaping style (hit length, hit frequency, etc.) = variables
- Juice wicking to coil = variables
In electronics, technically speaking (and many vapers argue this) watts are watts. But everything vaping is subjective. Personally, I notice a difference in LR watts vs higher voltage watts. I have tried many different combinations (not gen style - just have not had the time for RBAs but one day I'll try one) and I consistently prefer higher voltage watts. I have not yet tried any LR gear I found enjoyable. Obviously, others (yourself included) prefer LR. Juices bring in even more variables as the various diluents and flavors all can respond to heat differently. My juices are all higher content VG and VG burns at lower temps than PG. Some say fruit flavors do not stand up to heat as well as tobacco flavors, etc. As flavors vary in molecular composition, this too is easily understandable.
For my vaping tastes, and I have conducted experiments keeping all other variables constant ONLY changing the resistance for LR vs higher resistance watts, LR seems to heat too quickly (for me). This test is very easy on Evolv gear as long as the make and model of the atty/carto being compared remain the same (e.g. Boge 510 carto in 1.5Ω vs Boge 510 carto in 2.8Ω with same juice) - personally, I prefer the 801 model. I often multi-hit (some call this rolling the vapor) which can further overheat my vapor on LR but does not seem to on higher resistance coils. I just find the higher resistance/watts combos, in the atty/carto gear of my preference, just provides a richer and more full flavored vape. We can use all the math we want but in the end, math does not address the multitudes of variables (as you know, even different makes/models of attys and/or cartos of the same resistance at the same watts levels will produce different vape/TH/flavor characteristics).
While I am not an EE, I am quite familiar with Evolv gear. The DNA20d may well be the most advanced vape technology on the market today. Evolv gear provides amazingly consistent vape - possibly THE most consistent. There are some slight changes in the 4 different Evolv boards (Darwin, Kick, DNA12 and DNA20d). I do not have all the exact specifications but some of them "remember" the last power level delivered and as long as there are no changes between firings, they instantly deliver the same power. Others have a slight ramp-up but measured in milliseconds.
The combos you are describing I would call extreme vaping. This is my subjective interpretation. While I have tried many many many combinations over my three years of vaping, I have consistently found I enjoy a mere 8.5 watts using 2.8(ish) Ωs. Anything higher (watts) and I do not like the flavor/character of the vapor as it tastes singed to burnt to me.
I have more than one of every Evolv product made. Using the DNA20d, I actually find myself turning down the watts a bit to about 8. While electronically speaking watts ARE watts, the vapor - at the same watts level with the same juice and carto/atty - just tastes/feels hotter to me on DNA20d.
I think the very best advice you can receive on this topic is to just try a DNA20d device with your preferred gear, your juice and your taste-buds. Vape meets are great for this. Vapers are friendly and if you see someone with a DNA20d device (likely - especially at the larger events like the upcoming VapeBash), they may well let you try it with your preferred atty and juice. Vape stores can also offer opportunities because often the employees have various devices of their own; if you ask nicely, they may let you try theirs. If you come to VapeBash, come find me and I'll let you try mine. I am easy to find and many know me - just ask around and someone will point me out in the crowd.
I hope this is somehow helpful to you. Best wishes and Happy
I actually have a fluke bench test meter that I use that measures rms, current etc. The pwm used in regulated mods tends to mess with cheaper meters preventing accurate measurements. I have a killer 705 on my mcm20 in a tank, with a 1.8ohm coil and a fresh 18650 the most it gets is about 5.9v for19 watts so pretty close. The vape is no good tho, too hot and spitty from the higher voltage, probably burnt the wick too.
On my iHybrid, I measure 3.9 open circuit and 3.6 under load with a .8 ohm coil. If I wrapped a 3 ohm coil on it I'd probably get 3.8 or so, the losses in the circuit are greater the higher the current (I^2R) goes.
On my iHybrid, I measure 3.9 open circuit and 3.6 under load with a .8 ohm coil. If I wrapped a 3 ohm coil on it I'd probably get 3.8 or so, the losses in the circuit are greater the higher the current (I^2R) goes.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked