Michael Moore

[PhiHalcyon]

The only legal recourse is to lobby your representative to prepare and submit legislation to reverse or exempt that which makes electronic cigarettes illegal. Compared to the counter lobby, we don't stand a chance.

None of that can be done until a ruling is made and all appeals have either been exhausted or the case has been dropped. I'm not a lawyer but I'm not clueless either.

I made no mention of any legal recourse, but of an enforcement resolution that would, ideally, balance the need for the rule of law with whatever can be construed as being our collective legitimate interests. This could be something as simple and reasonable as lobbying the FDA to engage in a staged or delayed enforcement strategy (while tobacco-based ecig replacement products get developed), or something as far-reaching and bold as arguing for the FDA to construe the FSPTCA in such a manner as to allow for at least some nicotinated non-tobacco products to be regulated as tobacco products.

I don't think that you are clueless either, even though you have struggled with acknowledging the fact that you inappropriately attributed a defeatist attitude to someone who was not exhibiting one.

 

[TokenVapor]

In the battle to keep the ecig available, we must begin with a recognition of the fact that we are asking a law enforcement agency to not enforce the law.

This was your statement that prompted me to bring up a legal recourse.

The only legal recourse is to lobby your representative to prepare and submit legislation to reverse or exempt that which makes electronic cigarettes illegal.

If it is a matter of "asking a law enforcement agency to not enforce the law". Then that law making electronic cigarettes illegal must be modified to allow their use.
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And please don't put a spin on the intentions of my comments. If SmokeyJoe feels slighted in any way. I'm more than willing to assure him otherwise in private.

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Edit: Talking to another documentary filmmaker.

 

[PhiHalcyon]

If it is a matter of "asking a law enforcement agency to not enforce the law". Then that law making electronic cigarettes illegal must be modified to allow their use.

Electronic cigarettes are not inherently illegal. It is possible for there to be a legal electronic cigarette under current law. It just needs to be approved by the FDA first. Just like the Nicotrol Inhaler was. Although the possibility of the ecig being approved as an OTC drug product before the Nicotrol Inhaler is, is almost certainly zero.

For some insight into the last known attempt to make the Nicotrol Inhaler an OTC product, read:
Petition: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/03/May03/052303/03P-0196-cp00001-vol1.pdf
Response: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/04/apr04/041304/03p-0196-pdn00001-vol1.pdf

Nonetheless, as my last post made clear, I was not suggesting a change in the law (for this, like the six month old FSPTCA did, would probably take many years to accomplish); but, rather, if there is any sort of fight left, then it is either in promoting a long-shot, ecig-friendly interpretation of the law, or a more realistic staged/delayed enforcement of the law that would allow enough time for one or more tobacco-based, ecig-replacing innovations to come to market. The latter of which is what we currently have - even if this is not the intent behind the delayed ruling.

As for your spin accusation ...

Thanks SmokeyJoe, You are absolutely right ... This fight has already been lost.

A dismissal of Moore cannot be legitimately construed as being tantamount to an admission of defeat.

 

[TokenVapor]

Ok... Michael Moore is out anyway. My friend just spoke to him on the 16th and... well let's just say it may be awhile before we see another film from him.

On the bright side... My friend knows another award-winning filmmaker with some pretty impressive credentials. I sent her the pdf file "The Facts About Electronic Cigarettes" from the ECA. She forwarded it on to the filmmaker.
I should know something by the end of this week.

 

[TokenVapor]

Don't take my comments out of context either.

 

[PhiHalcyon]

TV,

Good work. The more reasons we can produce to make it difficult for a full-scale enforcement action, the better. (Although it is for the planning of such an action that the delay is most likely all about; and/or, the FDA is looking for that buzz-kill revelation about the hidden dangers of the ecig - like toxins leaching into our e-liquid or something.)

As for the context matter, that is a 'page one' story that is old news by now.

 

[TokenVapor]

True... It should be at least enough for the filmmaker to do some digging around. Make some phone calls etc.

That's if he wants to do it. We'll see.

 

[Webby]

Hahaha, I'm not that big but thanks for the vote of confidence.


The problem with big name actors is that they are union. Either SAG or AFTRA. Union actors make union wages. I don't know how expensive actor's are for PSA's. That is something you would have to negotiate with the actors agent. Off the top of my head. You are looking at a minimum of round-trip travel expenses, room and board and about $700 for eight hours. Plus overtime if applicable, pension, health.
This is all paid to the agent who disperses it to the actor after the contract is fulfilled.

TV,

I saw a short one time where Morgan Freeman had "stopped in" to an LA recording studio to do a voice over for a PSA. What is the conventional wisdom of having someone go to a local (for them) studio and record a spot? assuming Selleck (or whomever) lives in (say) Denver, surely there is a studio a short drive from his house and he can drop by for 10 minutes to record a spot without incurring travel expenses or crazy riders - right?

 

[TokenVapor]

That's if he wants to do it. We'll see.

Well not so good for this particular filmmaker.

Richard Brauer

"I'm probably not the right person to spec this kind of doc.
I'll keep it in mind though."
=============================

So it's back to the drawing board. My friend did give me
a couple more leads. Neither of these guys would do a
documentary pro bono. The plus side to that is you could
sell it to the networks yourself and recoup your investment.

I don't have the money to produce a documentary. So I'm
going to give you their contact info. I have met both of these
men personally. I've worked with John Lauri. John is probably
more expensive but you get what you pay for. John is also a
smoker. At least he was back in May.

John Lauri - 248-417-2886
248-417-2886 <J. Lauri Filmworks Website>


Scott Allman - 517-282-5678

I've done all I can, shy of renting a movie camera and
shooting it myself. Can't do that either. I've been cast
as a detective in an indie psychological thriller. We begin
shooting my scenes in Detroit beginning in January.

I'm saving my money for the three trips downstate.

Best of Luck!!

 

[TokenVapor]

TV,

I saw a short one time where Morgan Freeman had "stopped in" to an LA recording studio to do a voice over for a PSA. What is the conventional wisdom of having someone go to a local (for them) studio and record a spot? assuming Selleck (or whomever) lives in (say) Denver, surely there is a studio a short drive from his house and he can drop by for 10 minutes to record a spot without incurring travel expenses or crazy riders - right?

If I'm not mistaken. An actor gets paid for a minimum of eight hours. Whether he/she works ten minutes or 7.5 hours. Just talk to their agent. Maybe arrangements can be made.

Yes, it would be cheaper if the actor was local. You would still have to rent a studio unless someone in the recording biz owed you a favor.

 

[Webby]

If I'm not mistaken. An actor gets paid for a minimum of eight hours. Whether he/she works ten minutes or 7.5 hours. Just talk to their agent. Maybe arrangements can be made.

Yes, it would be cheaper if the actor was local. You would still have to rent a studio unless someone in the recording biz owed you a favor.

Good to know - thanks!

 

[oldlady]

How about PBS Frontline? It covers many controversial issues and does not seem to hesitate to call "corruption" "state capture" when it sees it. CASAA could also contact other news shows, like 60 Minutes. I wonder what Larry King would think of this story?

I really think the "insider" trading among Big Pharma and the anti-smoking people in the face of scientific evidence and public health - aka Michael Seigel's blog - is where the "story" lies. Any good reporter should take an interest if the issue is sold from that angel.

Individual politicians could (and should ) be made to feel ashamed to associate themselves with ASH and co.

 

[TokenVapor]

How about PBS Frontline? It covers many controversial issues and does not seem to hesitate to call "corruption" "state capture" when it sees it. CASAA could also contact other news shows, like 60 Minutes. I wonder what Larry King would think of this story?

I really think the "insider" trading among Big Pharma and the anti-smoking people in the face of scientific evidence and public health - aka Michael Seigel's blog - is where the "story" lies. Any good reporter should take an interest if the issue is sold from that angel.

Individual politicians could (and should ) be made to feel ashamed to associate themselves with ASH and co.

Frontline seems like a good choice.

FRONTLINE: E-Mail FRONTLINE | PBS


Now is the time to put media pressure on the FDA. I think the CASAA and ECA as well as all other pro-electronic cigarette associations should be all over these programs to heard. I can't believe that a few users here are the first to think about it. Wake up!! A media blitz should have been initiated months ago.

 

[oldlady]

Actually, I think getting Tom Selleck - aka The Marlboro Man - to champion our cause would be perfect too!

Did you write to Frontline? I would be happy to send a note with a link to Michael Seigel's Blog and a copy of Kristin's article if you want me to.

 

[catwoman19]

Just throwing in my two cents, but how about Jesse Ventura and his Conspiracy Theory program?

 

[Webby]

Actually, I think getting Tom Selleck - aka The Marlboro Man - to champion our cause would be perfect too!

Did you write to Frontline? I would be happy to send a note with a link to Michael Seigel's Blog and a copy of Kristin's article if you want me to.

Old Lady,

Please do - I'll write one as well and see if we can get enough to them to garner enough interest for them to contact us! I'll also get with the PR team at CASAA about hitting all the news venues again requesting an interview.

 

[TokenVapor]

Just throwing in my two cents, but how about Jesse Ventura and his Conspiracy Theory program?

Personally I think Jesse's program on the subject would be an assault on the FDA in general. The electronic cigarette may be a small blurb at best.
Still.... I would like to see him go after the FDA.

 

[testekleez]

I tend to agree with tinstar. I'm not so sure if Micheal Moore is the person we would want to represent the cause. He has a rep for twisting the facts. It would probably do more harm than good. We need a spokesperson that's legit and above reproach, but I'll admit I'm at a loss as to who that should be.

How about Jack Lalane the juicer guy lol. A Doctor would be best with scientific research to boot. Didn't they have an e-cig on that Dr's show on CBS? They said it was great and much better than smoking if I remember correctly.

 

[IFiddle]

Hi guys, I'm new here, so be gentle. I was wondering if anyone has thought about contacting Francis Collins, head of the National Institute of Health? His department deal with doling out grants for health research. I know that he personally is a firm believer in the scientific method and a very moral and religious guy. His work with making the human genome available to all of the world via the internet points towards a kind of populism when it comes to health.

If it hasn't been thrown out there, maybe drafting a letter to him that argues that it's a moral imperative that the completely non-scientific and greed motivated smear of vaping is exposed for what it is in the interest of the health of millions? He might also be receptive to the fact that FDA decisions are being made without any independent or peer reviewed research. All I know is that if you could get him on board, look out.

 

[TokenVapor]

University of Michigan - Ann Arbor would be a good place to conduct the studies.