Missing the Urge and Pleasure or Something Else?

[erazzz]

I don't miss it. The cravings I got back when I smoked were awful. I'm down to 4mg now so I don't get cravings at all anymore. Sunday I had to go 16 hours without vaping (no smoking or vaping allowed). I was fine the entire time. No cravings, no moodiness, nothing. The smokers on the other hand, seemed to really be suffering. lol I don't miss it, cravings were a burden. The relief of a cig was nice, but it is called "relief" for a reason, it follows a stressful event .

 

[Muggs]

One of the reasons they get away with it is that at least some of the MAOI's are found naturally in tobacco. However, the levels in cigarettes are different than the levels in natural tobacco. BT claims that this manipulation of ingredients is required in order to get a consistent product (so that every marlboro tastes like every other marlboro, has the same nic content, etc). This is a reasonable argument given that tobacco is very dependent on the soil conditions, water, curing process, etc. However, under that guise, they do a LOT of manipulation of the tobacco, and analysis of cig tobacco and smoke shows that it's a much different substance than what nature made.

Hmmm, very clever disguise for sure. I do also get the concept but man does that work in their favor.

i think you're right. tobacco companies put in alot of ingredients that speed and intensify the delivery of nicotine to our system. so for those of us missing that extra kick we used to get the reason is most likely due to some of the many additives we're no longer getting through vaping.

Yeah it's looking like that is pretty much it.

I don't miss it. The cravings I got back when I smoked were awful. I'm down to 4mg now so I don't get cravings at all anymore. Sunday I had to go 16 hours without vaping (no smoking or vaping allowed). I was fine the entire time. No cravings, no moodiness, nothing. The smokers on the other hand, seemed to really be suffering. lol I don't miss it, cravings were a burden. The relief of a cig was nice, but it is called "relief" for a reason, it follows a stressful event .

Haha I like that, very true.

 

[FireDragon1138]

That sensation is due to the other alkaloids in tobacco besides nicotine. You will never really get that vaping nicquids. A few weeks or months into a quit, some people will get depressed. This is due to the absence of these alkaloids. Their effect is not as immediate as nicotine, and while their absence won't make you crawl the walls or rip somebody's head off, they can contribute to not feeling like yourself.

"Whole Tobacco Alkaloids" were mentioned earlier and these might be worth trying if you miss that feeling. Tobacco has a lot of minor alkaloids, like cotinine or anatabine. Anatabine in particular contributes to a feeling of well-being and has anti-inflammatory effects, one reason perhaps that smokers tend to have less auto-immune diseases than non-smokers.

There is not a huge difference in the effect between WTA and nicotine, but I do notice I tend to vape less when vaping WTA and WTA deals with stress-vaping better than nicotine. It's a small difference that might be enough for some people to just go back to smoking analogs unsatisfied with vaping.

It's actually true, nicotine itself is not particular addictive... more like caffeine than the powerful addiction that cigarettes present. Rats will turn down nicotine administration in favor of other drugs. The tobacco control community is woefully behind the science if it thinks nicotine patches and gum are adequate ways to address the allure of the cigarette. The cigarette is a synergy between various alkaloids, administered in a carefully manufactured delivery device, and attached to a lot of rituals and culture that cannot simply be replaced with mint flavored nicotine.

Natural tobacco has even more of those MAOI's and alkaloids- it was not something that tobacco companies had to engineer (and one reason snus and snuff are so satisfying even though some brands are minimally engineered products). I have found American Spirits and Good Stuff RYO way more satisfying than cheap store-bought smokes, even though I can feel the nicotine levels are similar. The reason is that American Spirit has more of those alkaloids and they contribute to a feeling of satisfaction in addition to the nicotine. Manufactured cigarettes, on the other hand, have the nicotine levels manipulated through the use of sheet (reconstituted) tobacco, made from very low grade lug leaves, without really being concerned about minor alkaloids.

On the other hand, the absence of minor tobacco alkaloids in e-juice means that e-cigarettes are less effective harm reduction strategies, because some smokers will not be able to make the switch, especially if they have psychiatric or physical conditions or constitutions that benefit from those alkaloids.

 

[Muggs]

That is some really good info right there. Good to know about WTA thanks. Wow so the big T is behind quitting devices like patches and gum for sure then.

 

[firephly]

That sensation is due to the other alkaloids in tobacco besides nicotine. You will never really get that vaping nicquids. A few weeks or months into a quit, some people will get depressed. This is due to the absence of these alkaloids. Their effect is not as immediate as nicotine, and while their absence won't make you crawl the walls or rip somebody's head off, they can contribute to not feeling like yourself.

"Whole Tobacco Alkaloids" were mentioned earlier and these might be worth trying if you miss that feeling. Tobacco has a lot of minor alkaloids, like cotinine or anatabine. Anatabine in particular contributes to a feeling of well-being and has anti-inflammatory effects, one reason perhaps that smokers tend to have less auto-immune diseases than non-smokers.

There is not a huge difference in the effect between WTA and nicotine, but I do notice I tend to vape less when vaping WTA and WTA deals with stress-vaping better than nicotine. It's a small difference that might be enough for some people to just go back to smoking analogs unsatisfied with vaping.

It's actually true, nicotine itself is not particular addictive... more like caffeine than the powerful addiction that cigarettes present. Rats will turn down nicotine administration in favor of other drugs. The tobacco control community is woefully behind the science if it thinks nicotine patches and gum are adequate ways to address the allure of the cigarette. The cigarette is a synergy between various alkaloids, administered in a carefully manufactured delivery device, and attached to a lot of rituals and culture that cannot simply be replaced with mint flavored nicotine.

Natural tobacco has even more of those MAOI's and alkaloids- it was not something that tobacco companies had to engineer (and one reason snus and snuff are so satisfying even though some brands are minimally engineered products). I have found American Spirits and Good Stuff RYO way more satisfying than cheap store-bought smokes, even though I can feel the nicotine levels are similar. The reason is that American Spirit has more of those alkaloids and they contribute to a feeling of satisfaction in addition to the nicotine. Manufactured cigarettes, on the other hand, have the nicotine levels manipulated through the use of sheet (reconstituted) tobacco, made from very low grade lug leaves, without really being concerned about minor alkaloids.

On the other hand, the absence of minor tobacco alkaloids in e-juice means that e-cigarettes are less effective harm reduction strategies, because some smokers will not be able to make the switch, especially if they have psychiatric or physical conditions or constitutions that benefit from those alkaloids.

Excellent post! that was very informative.

 

[moxiot]

When I made the switch to vaping 6 months ago I had to say goodbye to that morning cigarrette with a hot cup of coffee. That to me is impossible to achieve with vaping. Once I was ready to let go of that one analog I was able to carry on

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

 

[kbf101998]

Check these out, could possibly help you with the ahhhhh feeling-Aroma E Juice

 

[FireDragon1138]

Nicotine provides the jolt and it's what we miss when we don't smoke for an hour or two, but the minor alkaloids provide more of the level-headedness people associate with smoking (or used to, rather), and it's probably a strong motivator for some people to continue smoking.

I don't think Big T is behind NRT so much as the minor alkaloids role has been overlooked by almost everyone. The standard approach to the minor alkaloids has been to push antidepressants to help people quit, and government regulators continue to treat tobacco addiction as nicotine addiction, and assume failure rates are due to smoking just not being stigmatized enough (since NRT is so widely available). It's really only been on forums like this one where people have gotten to grips with the difference between consuming nicotine and the whole tobacco alkaloids. I think that's because so many people involved in tobacco control and government are no longer smokers, so the subjective dimension is absent. It's easier to believe, in that case, the reductionistic, simplistic thinking that tobacco addiction is equal to nicotine addiction.

 

[Muggs]

Nicotine provides the jolt and it's what we miss when we don't smoke for an hour or two, but the minor alkaloids provide more of the level-headedness people associate with smoking (or used to, rather), and it's probably a strong motivator for some people to continue smoking.

I don't think Big T is behind NRT so much as the minor alkaloids role has been overlooked by almost everyone. The standard approach to the minor alkaloids has been to push antidepressants to help people quit, and government regulators continue to treat tobacco addiction as nicotine addiction, and assume failure rates are due to smoking just not being stigmatized enough (since NRT is so widely available). It's really only been on forums like this one where people have gotten to grips with the difference between consuming nicotine and the whole tobacco alkaloids. I think that's because so many people involved in tobacco control and government are no longer smokers, so the subjective dimension is absent. It's easier to believe, in that case, the reductionistic, simplistic thinking that tobacco addiction is equal to nicotine addiction.

I agree. It seems there is a huge discrepancy between what is holding people hostage the nicotine or the tobacco alkaloids.

 

[Gonzi]

Verry informative thread here. It seems that everything that I can think off has already been stated. It was fairly easy for me to quick analogues, but it's been a struggle for my wife. Half of her battle was mental, as far as her wanting an e-cig to be the size and shape of a cigarette, or close to it, and perform like a dual coil dripper. I've been thinking about getting some WTA to add to some of my DIY's that I make her, now that I have her set up with a vision spinner and some evods. For her, she wants the fullness of the lungs that you get from high VG and warmth of vapor, I have her prety satisfied now with a 1/16 micro coil with cotton in that evod, but she might be missing the alkaloids that keep her from putting down the cigs completely.

 

[FireDragon1138]

Most people smoked the same brand of analogs for decades, relatively satisfied (at least until health issues arise or the price of cigs jars them), and yet there's so many hobbyist vapers... why is this? This is just my perception, but search for the perfect PV and setup seems to dominate a lot of vapers. I was headed down that route, being fed up with my equipment, but I realized the e-liquid is the weak point in the whole chain. It's just trying to dodge the real issue: nicotine e-liquid isn't satisfying so we look for technological fixes or thrills. It's the elephant in the room for the e-cig industry and only time will tell if it's a technological fad, like the 8-track.

That's why I believe there needs to be more scientific studies about the effectiveness of e-cigs in quitting smoking or switching. I think most peoples perceptions here are far too optimistic.

 

[pipster]

Most people smoked the same brand of analogs for decades, relatively satisfied (at least until health issues arise or the price of cigs jars them), and yet there's so many hobbyist vapers... why is this? This is just my perception, but search for the perfect PV and setup seems to dominate a lot of vapers. I was headed down that route, being fed up with my equipment, but I realized the e-liquid is the weak point in the whole chain. It's just trying to dodge the real issue: nicotine e-liquid isn't satisfying so we look for technological fixes or thrills. It's the elephant in the room for the e-cig industry and only time will tell if it's a technological fad, like the 8-track.

That's why I believe there needs to be more scientific studies about the effectiveness of e-cigs in quitting smoking or switching. I think most peoples perceptions here are far too optimistic.

I agree.. hence the constant flavor chase.. I have to keep switching flavors to find my 'fix', which is only short-lived anyway. At least i'm not smoking.. I get enough of satisfaction to stay off of analogs, even if it isn't complete satisfaction. I know that as I wean my nic levels...I can definitely go much longer without vaping during the day without having the nic fits I used to have while smoking. So that's something positive.

 

[Muggs]

I agree there is great info here.

Does naturally extracted tobacco ejuice contain any alkaloids?

 

[FireDragon1138]

For those that e-cigs work for, I'm sure it seems like a miracle but there's a whole section of smokers out there though that aren't particularly interested in quitting, aren't as highly motivated as many of the people out here on ECF. People like my S.O.'s friend, totally blind from chemotherapy, tried e-cigs and not "hooked" at all and unmotivated to deal with any kind of withdrawl. Nearly half of all smokers in the US are mentally ill (usually depression and anxiety tops the list), and like the aformentied example, not very motivated to quit.

I'd love to see some Chinese companies get serious about tobacco alkaloids, they would have the resources to do so. As it is, the vaping community has been victim of a lot of FUD and misinformation about nicotine, tobacco alkaloids, and WTA coming from internal disagreements as to whether vaping is about tobacco harm reduction or "quitting", the two are not the same. After all, some vapers want as little to do with real tobacco as possible. Tobacco alkaloids definitely would fit in better with harm reduction because they would increase the appeal of e-cigarettes to smokers, but they have a limited role in the goal of quitting nicotine. I know I come down on the side of harm reduction, just because I know quitting is not a realistic goal for a lot of people.

I agree there is great info here.

Does naturally extracted tobacco ejuice contain any alkaloids?

NET's contain very little in the way of tobacco alkaloids in themselves. I don't notice any tobacco effect from vaping most NET, the flavor may be more satisfying but to me it feels just like any other e-liquid.

WholeCig's flavored e-liquids are mostly all based around NET's and do contain tobacco alkaloids in ratios similar to cigarettes. Aroma E-Juice's tobacco alkaloid blends are not NET based.

 

[twgbonehead]

Verry informative thread here. It seems that everything that I can think off has already been stated. It was fairly easy for me to quick analogues, but it's been a struggle for my wife. Half of her battle was mental, as far as her wanting an e-cig to be the size and shape of a cigarette, or close to it, and perform like a dual coil dripper. I've been thinking about getting some WTA to add to some of my DIY's that I make her, now that I have her set up with a vision spinner and some evods. For her, she wants the fullness of the lungs that you get from high VG and warmth of vapor, I have her prety satisfied now with a 1/16 micro coil with cotton in that evod, but she might be missing the alkaloids that keep her from putting down the cigs completely.

I think one point that is often overlooked is that different people struggle differently when quitting because they have different bodies and minds.

A lot of people can just pick up an e-cig and immediately switch to it completely. For them, the nicotine and the behavioral part replaces the majority of the positive symptoms they get from smoking. For others, the anti-depressant nature of cigarette smoke (which is largely lacking when vaping) makes it much much harder to switch completely. Zyban was "discovered" as a smoking-cessation drug by accident; they were doing clinical trials of Wellbutrin as an anti-depression therapy, and noticed that a lot of the participants happened to quit smoking while on the trial. (However, in their zeal to make smoking-cessation products a longer-term expense, they decided that Zyban should be a much lower dosage than Wellbutrin, and the success rate was not duplicated).

 

[twgbonehead]

Muggs and FireDragon:

There is a difference between NET's and WTA's. NET's are an attempt to get tobacco flavors, WTA's are an attempt to get at least some of the alkaloids in a form that works with e-liquid.

 

[dash]

I would also like to know this.
Very informative thread!

I agree there is great info here.

Does naturally extracted tobacco ejuice contain any alkaloids?

 

[vjc0628]

That sensation is due to the other alkaloids in tobacco besides nicotine. You will never really get that vaping nicquids. A few weeks or months into a quit, some people will get depressed. This is due to the absence of these alkaloids. Their effect is not as immediate as nicotine, and while their absence won't make you crawl the walls or rip somebody's head off, they can contribute to not feeling like yourself.

"Whole Tobacco Alkaloids" were mentioned earlier and these might be worth trying if you miss that feeling. Tobacco has a lot of minor alkaloids, like cotinine or anatabine. Anatabine in particular contributes to a feeling of well-being and has anti-inflammatory effects, one reason perhaps that smokers tend to have less auto-immune diseases than non-smokers.

There is not a huge difference in the effect between WTA and nicotine, but I do notice I tend to vape less when vaping WTA and WTA deals with stress-vaping better than nicotine. It's a small difference that might be enough for some people to just go back to smoking analogs unsatisfied with vaping.

It's actually true, nicotine itself is not particular addictive... more like caffeine than the powerful addiction that cigarettes present. Rats will turn down nicotine administration in favor of other drugs. The tobacco control community is woefully behind the science if it thinks nicotine patches and gum are adequate ways to address the allure of the cigarette. The cigarette is a synergy between various alkaloids, administered in a carefully manufactured delivery device, and attached to a lot of rituals and culture that cannot simply be replaced with mint flavored nicotine.

Natural tobacco has even more of those MAOI's and alkaloids- it was not something that tobacco companies had to engineer (and one reason snus and snuff are so satisfying even though some brands are minimally engineered products). I have found American Spirits and Good Stuff RYO way more satisfying than cheap store-bought smokes, even though I can feel the nicotine levels are similar. The reason is that American Spirit has more of those alkaloids and they contribute to a feeling of satisfaction in addition to the nicotine. Manufactured cigarettes, on the other hand, have the nicotine levels manipulated through the use of sheet (reconstituted) tobacco, made from very low grade lug leaves, without really being concerned about minor alkaloids.

On the other hand, the absence of minor tobacco alkaloids in e-juice means that e-cigarettes are less effective harm reduction strategies, because some smokers will not be able to make the switch, especially if they have psychiatric or physical conditions or constitutions that benefit from those alkaloids.

Ok I've never realized this and not sure I understand it still

I've not had a cigarette in 16 months
I've went down from 18 mg to splitting time 12, 9 and 6 mg
actually 12 mg is maybe 10 % of the time and will be out completely in about a month

I ussuallly don't have to test myself much
but I went out to a long family dinner last weekend
and did not vape for 3 hours

Now while with smoking I would not have been able to go an hour with going outside
with vaping I lasted the whole time
but at the end I was def feeling it

while this is great I have not been urge free like many are saying

now you have me wondering
is it because I vape a lot of NET tobacco's
the only reason I think maybe not is because if I have a day where I vape non NET's really bothered
but on the other had if I don't have a strong NET available
for a couple of weeks I do really miss it

still not completely informed about MAOI's
how much are in NET's
how they effect
and how much they add to addiction

If I will need to get off NET's completely
to continue quest on eventually becoming vape free

It will be a sad day but maybe that's the next step at the end of the year
for now Ill be satisfied with the nic drop

 

[FireDragon1138]

now you have me wondering
is it because I vape a lot of NET tobacco's
the only reason I think maybe not is because if I have a day where I vape non NET's really bothered
but on the other had if I don't have a strong NET available
for a couple of weeks I do really miss it

I doubt there was a significant quantity of minor tobacco alkaloids in the NET you were vaping.

Most likely the reason you could go three hours without vaping is because you are no longer addicted to cigarettes. You are "addicted" to vaping. Cigs are way more addictive, the nicotine reaches your brain in seconds (vs. minutes with vaping). It becomes a reinforcing behavior very quickly, your brain starts craving it very quickly because it knows even more than your conscious mind can realize how much it's become dependent on the cigarette- so you quickly acquire the feelings of wanting to smoke, even if it would be inconvenient. The minor alkaloids just make it harder to quit long term (and don't produce the same type of cravings, actually some of them help dampen nicotine cravings, which is why WTA vapers vape fewer mL per day of e-juice). It's the instant reinforcement of the cigarette due to its nature and design that makes the cravings so strong.

I experienced something similar last year when I tried e-cigs for the first time after many years of being tobacco and nicotine free. I could go hours without vaping. Then I went back to cigs, and I really started missing the alkaloids, I went back to vaping and I found vaping wasn't working anymore as I would wind up falling to pieces after a few days. I started noticing this and did research and found out about whole tobacco alkaloids and realized the e-cig couldn't replace smoking all that well, at least for me, and was far more like quitting smoking altogether.

 

[vjc0628]

I doubt there was a significant quantity of minor tobacco alkaloids in the NET you were vaping.

Most likely the reason you could go three hours without vaping is because you are no longer addicted to cigarettes. You are "addicted" to vaping. Cigs are way more addictive, the nicotine reaches your brain in seconds (vs. minutes with vaping). It becomes a reinforcing behavior very quickly, your brain starts craving it very quickly because it knows even more than your conscious mind can realize how much it's become dependent on the cigarette- so you quickly acquire the feelings of wanting to smoke, even if it would be inconvenient. The minor alkaloids just make it harder to quit long term (and don't produce the same type of cravings, actually some of them help dampen nicotine cravings, which is why WTA vapers vape fewer mL per day of e-juice). It's the instant reinforcement of the cigarette due to its nature and design that makes the cravings so strong.

I experienced something similar last year when I tried e-cigs for the first time after many years of being tobacco and nicotine free. I could go hours without vaping. Then I went back to cigs, and I really started missing the alkaloids, I went back to vaping and I found vaping wasn't working anymore as I would wind up falling to pieces after a few days. I started noticing this and did research and found out about whole tobacco alkaloids and realized the e-cig couldn't replace smoking all that well, at least for me, and was far more like quitting smoking altogether.

its def not as strong a grip
as in I could go longer without
and slowly drop nicotine

but I am still (although after a longer period of time 3 hours vrs 1 hour)

getting that tightness in my back when I need to feed the addiction