FDA My Concerns with CTA's and capitulating

[Jman8]

So, we all agree that the FDA Ruling stinks (to high heaven).

I'm concerned that the high emotions being expressed now will blow over for most and when the dust settles, it will be about getting whatever scraps we can to continue the vaping activity. IOW, doing a whole lot of capitulating so that, maybe (just maybe) vaping will survive in some fashion that makes my (or anybody's) current way of vaping more convenient than the black market approach.

I'm also concerned that this sets us up to easily prefer vaping under exorbitant rate (read as tax) increases over what has been proposed. If the choice for most people is you can't easily obtain any flavor (because FDA has not allowed any of them) or you can obtain your favorite flavor, because FDA did allow it, but is now 25 times more than it was in 2015, I'm thinking the latter would be the choice for many. While it ought to be understood that in the underground market, the cost increase would be substantially lower, thus the other obvious option to capitulating.

I write all this because how we fight back will matter tremendously going forward in what we are asking vapers to be happy with for the future of vaping (to survive).

I see the legal fight as our best bet to eliminate the FDA or even State's desires to curtail/obliterate certain strongholds in vaping culture.

I wish the political fight favored us, but there are too many instances where compromise is deemed reasonable and so capitulating is sold as - hey at least we saved this aspect! Sure, you no longer can have x,y, and z when it comes to vaping, but we saved this little scrap and aren't we great for that? Will you not vote for us who saved that teeny tiny scrap while also seemingly okay with the way we screwed you over at the same time?

I feel what really needs to be said is that freedom loving people are unlikely to be happy with capitulating and will prefer underground market over compromises that are, on the balance, weighted against freedom to use. I'm hoping that side organizes, even while it would be likely seen as a 'criminal organization.' For as long as that side is disorganized, the fight/war will go on indefinitely, with legal recourse as the only way around it.

Very interested in what others have to say about this.

I have another item to say, but if I add it here, I believe it would make it very challenging for some to like what this post is conveying.

 

[Jman8]

The other thing I want to say, which I fully realize is controversial, but is intended to be way to fight back and fight back hard. Nope, not talking about using force in the fight as that would be insane or hard to get everyone on our side to think it worthwhile. What I'm getting at is possibly considered more insane and may be even harder to get people to go along with, but I think needs to be considered.

I'm thinking it is time to get the children involved in the fight. To not hold back on this as opposition is using this as superficial basis for everything and getting praise for it by their own choir. I think every vaper who upholds this type of capitulation inadvertantly helps opposition in the war. I said this pre-Final Rule and now given how utterly over the top that Rule is, I'm going to be a bit more vocal on this front.

I don't mean actively recruiting kids into the fight per se. But do mean letting kids know a) they are being used as pawns and b) that they are being lied to. How 'letting them know' works exactly, I'm not sure in this moment, and makes it incredibly more tough to move in that direction if the same people allegedly on your side are resisting this forever and a day. Are saying, "why of course we agree with no sales to minors, everyone agrees to that." IMO, you can put that nonsense away if you are truly interested in fighting this war.

The reality as I see it is everyone aware of the fight already knows / has no doubt that kids are vaping. FDA Final Rule makes note of this. To turn around and then speak like no kid should ever be vaping is disconnected from reality. You're not going to change this. Opposition is all about seeking this type of change and yet we agree with them? I must continue to ask why? What is it we would tell young people that isn't going to be supporting the lies of opposition? Which will then in turn be used against the adults as is CLEARLY EVIDENCED IN THE FINAL RULE.

Come the days of the underground market, there will be almost no incentive from suppliers to forbid kids from buying product. So, yeah there will continue to be those rare instances where little 6 to 14 year olds are 'harmed' by the product and depending on how that is conveyed/spun, it will stink to read about the likely tragedy. But to suggest it is only because of that supplier is further disconnect from reality. For prior to underground market blossoming, kids were using and rates of harm were negligible, but did occasionally result in some sort of - over experimentation resulting in tragic case of harm. It's very rare that occurs. We all agree it stinks whenever it occurs, but the underground market won't be the reason why it is occurring. The supplier in that market will just be the easy scapegoat and allow the capitulators to go to sleep that night knowing someone was held accountable.

IMO, we are all accountable if we don't fight this at the level it really needs to be fought at. Stop making kids pawns in the larger battle! Stop lying about kid usage! Stop advocating for sales to minors based on oppositions' gross exaggerations that vaping is inherently dangerous, or particularly dangerous to kids.

Same stuff was said about smoking. Still is said about smoking. Yet we have umpteen thousand vapers who claim to have started smoking between age 12 and 17, and 3 to 6 decades later are now feeling very healthy as a vaper. How can you who think 'smoking kills' and 'harms young people' reconcile those facts with what you are being asked to support (no kid should ever vape/smoke, because it hurts them)?

I'll end this rant now, but wish to make clear that as long as the side I'm on is capitulating on this aspect of the fight, I'm not fully supportive of the steps we could be taking.

I'll just add that this is not the only thing we ought to be fighting back on. We ought to realize we have ample opportunity to take the fight to them. Lawyers for our side are going to have that attitude. We need to as well. This constant desire to be on the reactionary side of things isn't working out so well for us. Sticking to that, at best means we get a few scraps that allow us to be satisfied with the future of vaping. If I were on the other side, I'd be so fricking happy at how easy it is to railroad vapers and how little they fight back on core items that I'd feel like the war is almost over and we are going to win this, rather easily.

Except for the part where kids will be forever smoking/vaping and seemingly adults are clueless as how to understand and work that out.

 

[nicnik]

I don't mean actively recruiting kids into the fight per se. But do mean letting kids know a) they are being used as pawns and b) that they are being lied to. How 'letting them know' works exactly, I'm not sure in this moment,

I think most of them that vape, know they are pawns, and that almost all of them know they're being lied to. Probably not true for those who would never vape.

At the moment, I can't think of any advantage to attempting, actively or otherwise, to recruit minors.

 

[Lessifer]

I don't know about "recruiting" minors, but I'm all for not spreading the idea that there is something about vaping that they need to be protected from.