My First RY4 Is Full of So Much Win It's Ridiculous

[DeadbeatJeff]

• TFA bourbon vanilla + TFA vanillin
• LorAnn's Natural Caramel
• EM
• TFA marshmallow
• my own VG cigar extract

Contrary to popular opinion, the LorAnn's Caramel, despite having some molasses, has yet to burn or do anything unpalatable... will keep my eye on it. So far so good (about 1ml into it on my rda).

So stoked rt now. Nearly all the RY4s I've had are pretty meh, some bordering on nasty, and the only one I really liked I feel now may have the dreaded buttery undertone.

Actual recipe will be forthcoming after I try a few hundred variations.

[update: having tried this and other LorAnn flavors with the molasses: it is not burning or clogging my dipper. I imagine it would maybe do so in a clearo. I think the sub-ohm, high-amp is helping. And they are delicious.

 

[cramptholomew]

"the only one I really liked I feel now may have the dreaded buttery undertone." - TFA Marshmallow is now on that list as well...

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

"the only one I really liked I feel now may have the dreaded buttery undertone." - TFA Marshmallow is now on that list as well...

from my understanding the levels of Diacetyl that may catalyze from Acetoin are minimal.

I also trust that TFA isn't lying to me about what is actually in there (that they're not slipping Diacetyl in on purpose)

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

from my understanding the levels of Diacetyl that may catalyze from Acetoin are minimal.

I also trust that TFA isn't lying to me about what is actually in there (that they're not slipping Diacetyl in on purpose)

Sh~

After looking into it more, the molecules for the two are basically identical, with Acetoin's having an OH group where Diacetyl has an O

F

...I was only using it in very small amounts... like .2ml in a 3ml test-batch (so like 6.5%), and that mix is likely only 10% flavor, and that flavor is likely not 100% Acetoin... So we're looking at 0.6% of a flavor with an unknown constitution including Acetoin...

Then again it seems that Diacetyl at least can be harful with prolonged exposures of 1ppm.

 

[we2rcool]

Just fyi -

The suggested/recommended 'safe exposure' by NIOSH is 8-31 parts per billion (from here: CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document ) 8ppb being for 8 hour/40 hour week inhalation (by nasal inhaltion in open air - not direct lung inhalation), and 25-31ppb for short term/15 minute exposure. That's for diacetyl or acetyl propionyl ('haven't found any concrete information on acetoin 'safety levels').

Here's a calculator for "ppb": mg/ml to ppb Converter, Chart -- EndMemo currently set for converting mg/ml to ppb (there are many other options). Yeah, mg/ml isn't "exact", but it's closer than guessing.

'Just calculated for a flavor that's listed as "< .5%" We assumed "less than .5%" would be .3% mg/ml ...and if that's used at 3% in a juice, then we're getting 90.1 ppb in the final juice.

Unless someone's lying or the test results are innacurate (not likely), in this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/543911-acetyl-pyrazine-diacetyl-acetoine-help.html we find FW's Butterscotch (mixed at 10% in a liquid) contains 1,799,052 ppb diacetyl. It's our fairly-well-researched opinion that it's very likely that FA's Caramel (and right now, as listed, TFA's Caramel Flavor not Caramel Candy or Caramel Original) are the only caramels without diacetyl, acetoin or acetyl propionyl.

'Like the man says: ya pays yer money and takes yer chances. To each his own and all that. 'Just wanted to share some baseline info that's been posted & helpful to us.

 

[we2rcool]

Oops - I was just reviewing the thread above and see/remembered that you'd already posted in it. duh. 'Sorry for not remembering ('really appreciated your insights & truths, btw)!

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Just fyi -

The suggested/recommended 'safe exposure' by NIOSH is 8-31 parts per billion (from here: CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document ) 8ppb being for 8 hour/40 hour week inhalation (by nasal inhaltion in open air - not direct lung inhalation), and 25-31ppb for short term/15 minute exposure. That's for diacetyl or acetyl propionyl ('haven't found any concrete information on acetoin 'safety levels').

Here's a calculator for "ppb": mg/ml to ppb Converter, Chart -- EndMemo currently set for converting mg/ml to ppb (there are many other options). Yeah, mg/ml isn't "exact", but it's closer than guessing.

'Just calculated for a flavor that's listed as "< .5%" We assumed "less than .5%" would be .3% mg/ml ...and if that's used at 3% in a juice, then we're getting 90.1 ppb in the final juice.

Unless someone's lying or the test results are innacurate (not likely), in this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/543911-acetyl-pyrazine-diacetyl-acetoine-help.html we find FW's Butterscotch (mixed at 10% in a liquid) contains 1,799,052 ppb diacetyl. It's our fairly-well-researched opinion that it's very likely that FA's Caramel (and right now, as listed, TFA's Caramel Flavor not Caramel Candy or Caramel Original) are the only caramels without diacetyl, acetoin or acetyl propionyl.

'Like the man says: ya pays yer money and takes yer chances. To each his own and all that. 'Just wanted to share some baseline info that's been posted & helpful to us.

You think LorAnn's Natural Caramel has one of these? Wizard labs doesn't give a warning about it, but who the hell knows what is included in "natural flavors"

 

[we2rcool]

You think LorAnn's Natural Caramel has one of these? Wizard labs doesn't give a warning about it, but who the hell knows what is included in "natural flavors"

We're relatively sure that any "food flavoring" contains the most commonly used GRAS food flavoring chemicals for that flavoring. Edit: And when we're talking caramels (and many others/similar), those flavoring chemicals are diacetyl, acetyl propionyl, or acetoin. A 'food flavor' manufacturer has no reason NOT to use them. Just like Linda at TFA says:

Pretty much by definition, a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl) in it. Just like it would be hard to bake a cinnamon cookie with no cinnamon, it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) to create a vanilla custard flavor with no acetoin or acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl).​

...and that applies to any 'flavor' that commonly uses these chemicals to create. There's simply no reason to assume that the food flavors that 'need' these chemicals won't contain them. Manufacturer's would have to go to MAJOR lengths to remove/reformulate them. The flavoring manufacturers that have gone to that effort & expense (FA and TFA) are very transparent and make the information readily available.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

We're relatively sure that any "food flavoring" contains the most commonly used GRAS food flavoring chemicals for that flavoring. Edit: And when we're talking caramels (and many others/similar), those flavoring chemicals are diacetyl, acetyl propionyl, or acetoin. A 'food flavor' manufacturer has no reason NOT to use them. Just like Linda at TFA says:

Pretty much by definition, a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl) in it. Just like it would be hard to bake a cinnamon cookie with no cinnamon, it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) to create a vanilla custard flavor with no acetoin or acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl).​

...and that applies to any 'flavor' that commonly uses these chemicals to create. There's simply no reason to assume that the food flavors that 'need' these chemicals won't contain them. Manufacturer's would have to go to MAJOR lengths to remove/reformulate them. The flavoring manufacturers that have gone to that effort & expense (FA and TFA) are very transparent and make the information readily available.

then TBH Wizard Labs, which is a vapor shop, shouldn't have it for sale, or at least put a warning.

certainly seems to fly in the face of "Except where noted, all of our concentrated liquid flavorings are made using FDA approved food flavoring ingredients, are water-soluble, and contain no diacetyl or related compounds"

so... is Wizard Labs among the profiteering lairs, or are they lazy, or does it really not contain diacetyl?

Concentrated Natural Creamy Caramel flavoring by LorAnns.
Natural Creamy Caramel concentrated flavoring is FDA approved for use in food, beverages, and products for human consumption. Gluten Free.
Ingredients: Natural flavors, glycerin, water, propylene glycol, ethyl alcohol, molasses

All Wizard Labs flavor concentrates are undiluted, full strength concentrates direct from the manufacturer, and contain no Diacetyl.
Recommended usage is to test at 5% flavoring in your recipe, and adjust to taste.

http://wizardlabs.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=79_97&product_id=602

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

then TBH Wizard Labs, which is a vapor shop, shouldn't have it for sale, or at least put a warning.

certainly seems to fly in the face of "Except where noted, all of our concentrated liquid flavorings are made using FDA approved food flavoring ingredients, are water-soluble, and contain no diacetyl or related compounds"

so... is Wizard Labs among the profiteering lairs, or are they lazy, or does it really not contain diacetyl?

Then again, they are obviously untrustworthy:

Except where noted, all of our concentrated liquid flavorings are made using FDA approved food flavoring ingredients, are water-soluble, and contain no diacetyl or related compounds

Concentrated Marshmallow flavoring by The Flavor Apprentice. Marshmallow concentrated flavoring is FDA approved for use in food, beverages, and products for human consumption. A light, sweet marshmallow - good for blending with other flavors.

Ingredients: Natural Flavors, Propylene Glycol

All Wizard Labs flavor concentrates are undiluted, full strength concentrates from the manufacturer, and contain no Diacetyl.
Recommended usage is to test at 5% flavoring in your solution, and adjust to taste.

Marshmallow Flavor (TFA)

A light, sweet marshmallow - good for blending with other flavors.

*** Note: This flavor contains 'custard' ingredients: Acetoin.
The following link explains the frequent questions & concerns involving custard notes.

https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6689-marshmallow-flavor.aspx

And I initially bought it with the understanding that it wouldn't have a "related compound", especially one that becomes Diacetyl when it oxidizes (loosed a hydrogen).

This is [edited]

 

[we2rcool]

We've never specifically researched LorAnn flavors - we just assume their food flavorings use the chemicals that are GRAS for food flavorings. A quick search on the site reveals nothing there (typical).

It certainly appears WZL is behind on updating their descriptions for the TFA line.

'Looks like your next step is to email LorAnn and then WZL and see what they have to say.

As for us, we're just sticking with FA E-Cig line and buying only TFA that are posted to be diketone free. Those are the only 'safe steps' we know to take.

If it helps at all, we (and others) do understand your frustration & outrage.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

We've never specifically researched LorAnn flavors - we just assume their food flavorings use the chemicals that are GRAS for food flavorings. A quick search on the site reveals nothing there (typical).

It certainly appears WZL is behind on updating their descriptions for the TFA line.

'Looks like your next step is to email LorAnn and then WZL and see what they have to say.

As for us, we're just sticking with FA E-Cig line and buying only TFA that are posted to be diketone free. Those are the only 'safe steps' we know to take.

If it helps at all, we (and others) do understand your frustration & outrage.

emailed LorAnn earlier, actually

 

[kabalm18]

Does TFA RY4 Double have the custard notes?

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Does TFA RY4 Double have the custard notes?

doesn't appear to
Perfumers Apprentice - Tobacco and Wood Flavors

 

[we2rcool]

doesn't appear to
Perfumers Apprentice - Tobacco and Wood Flavors

As we2 understand it, TFA is currently in the midst of testing, retesting & updating. The best place to find this info is the SPEC SHEETS & COMPONENTS page.

It appears the tests/updates on RY4D haven't yet been completed.

Since 2 of the 3 of TFA's Caramels do contain 'custard notes' (and RY4D seems to include heavy caramel), it's likely-possible they'll eventually show up when the testing/updating is completed.

 

[kabalm18]

As we2 understand it, TFA is currently in the midst of testing, retesting & updating. The best place to find this info is the SPEC SHEETS & COMPONENTS page.

It appears the tests/updates on RY4D haven't yet been completed.

Since 2 of the 3 of TFA's Caramels do contain 'custard notes' (and RY4D seems to include heavy caramel), it's likely-possible they'll eventually show up when the testing/updating is completed.

Thats what I am afraid of...I hope not because against better judgement I used along with some fa flavors last night to create an awesome juice.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Thats what I am afraid of...I hope not because against better judgement I used along with some fa flavors last night to create an awesome juice.

I think in moderation there is no real danger, the danger is long-term exposure. So, unless I have no clue at all, if you just don't use too much in the mix and don't vape the mix very often, it should be fine.

When they talk about the dangers of this stuff they're referring to people who inhale it all day every work day. Obviously vaping gives you a likely heavier dose relative to the source concentration, I think the above stands.

I do worry about a mix like the one in the OP, which has 2 flavors with these compounds ( not the bad one but the one that can sometimes turn into the bad one), or others that may have even more flavors like this, and compounding the ppm without knowing how much ore even if I'm doing it.

 

[kabalm18]

I think in moderation there is no real danger, the danger is long-term exposure. So, unless I have no clue at all, if you just don't use too much in the mix and don't vape the mix very often, it should be fine.

When they talk about the dangers of this stuff they're referring to people who inhale it all day every work day. Obviously vaping gives you a likely heavier dose relative to the source concentration, I think the above stands.

I do worry about a mix like the one in the OP, which has 2 flavors with these compounds ( not the bad one but the one that can sometimes turn into the bad one), or others that may have even more flavors like this, and compounding the ppm without knowing how much ore even if I'm doing it.

Yeah, im not worried about the batch I made last night and will vape it up its just I have a good recipe that will probably have to be reformulated or scrapped entirely.