My thoughts and issues with the DNA40

[Heespharm]

It makes sense, but I'm not sure if it's answering my question

The evolv charging board puts out 500ma, right? 18650s can handle twice that easily. However, if that current runs through the dna chip instead of bypassing it, and the chip for some reason doesn't like more than a 500ma input, then using a 1a charging board might cause problems. So, what I'm really asking is, does the current from the charging board go through the dna chip or is it passed through without interfering with the chip? Not sure if I'm making sense?

The vaporshark uses a 800mah charger.. The output from the charger connects to the board then into the battery wires... The posi and negative of the charger and the board are connected so the board will turn on even when the battery isn't in

 

[DejayRezme]

The evolv charging board puts out 500ma, right? 18650s can handle twice that easily. However, if that current runs through the DNA chip instead of bypassing it, and the chip for some reason doesn't like more than a 500ma input, then using a 1a charging board might cause problems. So, what I'm really asking is, does the current from the charging board go through the DNA chip or is it passed through without interfering with the chip? Not sure if I'm making sense?

Here is a lmgtfy link for you Let me google that for you
I'm sure you'll find one that works for you.

The way I imagine it is that the battery and or charging board will apply voltage at the power inputs of the DNA board. The board simply converts that voltage and only draws as much ampere as it needs. So the dna is smart and controls how much ampere it draws. How this works with charging I don't know, doesn't charging actually require applying the voltage with reverse polarity to charge the battery compared to discharging it? Anyway, any kind of usb charging board will have to be smart and have to handle it. Charging a battery itself is fairly complicated in itself.

 

[rusirius]

It makes sense, but I'm not sure if it's answering my question

The evolv charging board puts out 500ma, right? 18650s can handle twice that easily. However, if that current runs through the DNA chip instead of bypassing it, and the chip for some reason doesn't like more than a 500ma input, then using a 1a charging board might cause problems. So, what I'm really asking is, does the current from the charging board go through the DNA chip or is it passed through without interfering with the chip? Not sure if I'm making sense?

I think your confusion is in the way you are thinking... a "source" rather it be a battery or charge board or power adapter or whatever does "put out" current. Current is drawn. The voltage it's what's "put out".

Think of it like your water faucet. The pressure is like voltage. If your supply is 30psi then that pressure is there, even if all you faucets are turned off.The flow of the water is current, actually current is a measure of the flow of electricity. It's only when you open one of your faucets and "request" a certain amount of current that it actually flows. Now if you have a gigantic faucet capable of delivering 50 gallons per minute, just because you open that faucet doesn't mean you're going to get that current. You can crack open the faucet just a little bit, and only a small current will flow.

You can't think of the charge board "forcing" a current, it's only the circuit that will "draw" whatever current it needs.

On the other hand, if you try to get 50 gallons per minute out of your faucet that can only deliver 1 gallon per minute, nothing bad happens, it just won't give you the amount of flow you want.

When the charger is hooked up with the battery and turned on, the battery because of it's internal resistance which is very low will try to equalize the voltage difference between it's current voltage (let's say 3.5 volts) and the charger voltage of 4.2 volts. But the charger circuit limits the current, so it can only get say .5A or 1A (typical of the charge board we're talking about here). So that's all the "flow" that will go into the battery.

Since the charge board is hooked up across the battery, and so is the load (in this case the dna chip) any current the dna tries to draw will be facilitated by the charge board. I won't go into the math, but let's just say that since the charge board is at 4.2v and the battery is at 3.5v a portion of the current supplied to the dna will come from the charge board. But if you fire the device, and it starts drawing say 8A, that's way above the .5 or 1A the charge board can supply, so it will mostly be the battery supplying that current.

So let's say I went all out and put a massive charge board that was capable of delivering 500A of current... If I fire the device and it draws 8A it still won't hurt anything, because it's only going to draw 8A...

Again this is because the load "draws" the current, the source doesn't "force" it.

One last thought to maybe try to help you understand...

If I'm thirsty and I get some water... It doesn't matter if I get a 12oz bottle of water, or find a big river. I'm only going to "drink" what I want.. Just because I drink from a river doesn't mean the entire river is going to get jammed into my throat.

 

[rusirius]

Here is a lmgtfy link for you Let me google that for you
I'm sure you'll find one that works for you.

The way I imagine it is that the battery and or charging board will apply voltage at the power inputs of the DNA board. The board simply converts that voltage and only draws as much ampere as it needs. So the dna is smart and controls how much ampere it draws. How this works with charging I don't know, doesn't charging actually require applying the voltage with reverse polarity to charge the battery compared to discharging it? Anyway, any kind of usb charging board will have to be smart and have to handle it. Charging a battery itself is fairly complicated in itself.

Actually believe it or not, it's not. Charging a battery is about as simple as it gets. And no, the voltage isn't reversed. You just attached the battery to a source that has a higher voltage than it currently contains. By doing so it will absorb the energy to try to equalize itself.

How complex does a charger have to be to charge an 18650? I could make one with a single component. A resistor.

If I took one 18650 that was fully charged and another that was dead, and hooked them up in parallel (positive to positive and negative to negative) the full battery will charge the dead one. Until they are both roughly half charged and the voltage is equalized between the two. The resistor just has to go in series between the positive or negative posts. It's just to limit the current so they don't try to equalize too fast.

That's literally all a charger is. A power supply at a fixed voltage (4.2 volts in our case) with a resistor to limit current. They can get more complex, I.e. displays for voltage reading, an led to light once the voltage of the battery has reached capacity, etc.. But at the core it's nothing more than a power supply with a resistor.

 

[awsum140]

When charging a lithium based battery there is a voltage/current curve that should be followed to optimize battery charge time and battery life. While a simply resistor will work, it may not be the best solution.

 

[rusirius]

When charging a lithium based battery there is a voltage/current curve that should be followed to optimize battery charge time and battery life. While a simply resistor will work, it may not be the best solution.

Lol, I'm not saying it's the best. I'm just saying it's how almost every charger in use for ecigs works. Yes there are more advanced chargers it there. Mostly used for the rc hobbies that include features such as short reverse voltage hits to minimize crystallization, voltage curves to maximize stored energy, etc... But if anyone thinks their efest or nitecore or iching jixomaoi charger is doing anything more than applying a fixed voltage to their battery with current limiting, they're fooling themselves!

 

[DejayRezme]

I've got an intellicharger. Although I don't know it's IQ.

 

[KenD]

I think your confusion is in the way you are thinking... a "source" rather it be a battery or charge board or power adapter or whatever does "put out" current. Current is drawn. The voltage it's what's "put out".

Think of it like your water faucet. The pressure is like voltage. If your supply is 30psi then that pressure is there, even if all you faucets are turned off.The flow of the water is current, actually current is a measure of the flow of electricity. It's only when you open one of your faucets and "request" a certain amount of current that it actually flows. Now if you have a gigantic faucet capable of delivering 50 gallons per minute, just because you open that faucet doesn't mean you're going to get that current. You can crack open the faucet just a little bit, and only a small current will flow.

You can't think of the charge board "forcing" a current, it's only the circuit that will "draw" whatever current it needs.

On the other hand, if you try to get 50 gallons per minute out of your faucet that can only deliver 1 gallon per minute, nothing bad happens, it just won't give you the amount of flow you want.

When the charger is hooked up with the battery and turned on, the battery because of it's internal resistance which is very low will try to equalize the voltage difference between it's current voltage (let's say 3.5 volts) and the charger voltage of 4.2 volts. But the charger circuit limits the current, so it can only get say .5A or 1A (typical of the charge board we're talking about here). So that's all the "flow" that will go into the battery.

Since the charge board is hooked up across the battery, and so is the load (in this case the dna chip) any current the dna tries to draw will be facilitated by the charge board. I won't go into the math, but let's just say that since the charge board is at 4.2v and the battery is at 3.5v a portion of the current supplied to the dna will come from the charge board. But if you fire the device, and it starts drawing say 8A, that's way above the .5 or 1A the charge board can supply, so it will mostly be the battery supplying that current.

So let's say I went all out and put a massive charge board that was capable of delivering 500A of current... If I fire the device and it draws 8A it still won't hurt anything, because it's only going to draw 8A...

Again this is because the load "draws" the current, the source doesn't "force" it.

One last thought to maybe try to help you understand...

If I'm thirsty and I get some water... It doesn't matter if I get a 12oz bottle of water, or find a big river. I'm only going to "drink" what I want.. Just because I drink from a river doesn't mean the entire river is going to get jammed into my throat.

Thanks. I do understand the basics, but my vocabulary is off. And now I understand a bit more So, if I understand it correctly it would be ok to use any charging board really as long as the battery can handle it, the DNA chip itself won't mind. Or am I still confused?

 

[rusirius]

Thanks. I do understand the basics, but my vocabulary is off. And now I understand a bit more So, if I understand it correctly it would be ok to use any charging board really as long as the battery can handle it, the DNA chip itself won't mind. Or am I still confused?

Nope, you've got it!

 

[KenD]

Here is a lmgtfy link for you Let me google that for you
I'm sure you'll find one that works for you.

The way I imagine it is that the battery and or charging board will apply voltage at the power inputs of the DNA board. The board simply converts that voltage and only draws as much ampere as it needs. So the dna is smart and controls how much ampere it draws. How this works with charging I don't know, doesn't charging actually require applying the voltage with reverse polarity to charge the battery compared to discharging it? Anyway, any kind of usb charging board will have to be smart and have to handle it. Charging a battery itself is fairly complicated in itself.

Thanks, but I'm not actually looking for a charging board. I was simply trying to figure out what kind of charging boards the DNA chip could take, and why, and with Rusirius help I think I got it.

 

[DejayRezme]

Well if you don't have a reverse polarity when charging (which makes sense I guess lol) then if both the battery is full and you charge you'd have twice the voltage at the input power of the dna chip. So you'll have to take care that the device supports "passthrough charging".

I just saw this note on a charging both: "Note : the device should be disconnected OUT when Charging start!!"

 

[rusirius]

Well if you don't have a reverse polarity when charging (which makes sense I guess lol) then if both the battery is full and you charge you'd have twice the voltage at the input power of the dna chip. So you'll have to take care that the device supports "passthrough charging".

I just saw this note on a charging both: "Note : the device should be disconnected OUT when Charging start!!"

No, voltage doesn't add like that. Just as 2 or 200 batteries in parallel will still give you the same voltage as 1. You just get more capacity and current handling ability. If one battery can supply 1A of current, then 200 can supply 200A. When in series the voltage adds. To do that in this scenario (I.e. to usea charging board to double the voltage you'd have to run the positive wire from the charging board to the negative post of the battery then connect the load (the dna board in this case) between the negative of the charging board and the positive post of the battery.

 

[DejayRezme]

Oh right lol.

 

[MattB101]

Regarding USB chargers, will the current pass through the DNA40 (or 30) chip or go straight to the battery? If the former, I'm guessing there might be some problems using a higher charge current board?

Goes straight to the battery but connects to the board. The + and - solder pads for B+ and the charger are right next to each other on the board.

Looking for something new that I like. Watch this space for new wit, halfwit, nitwit...

 

[MattB101]

I've wondered about how that works too. It's probably rather complicated. The charger boards are wired in parallel to battery with the dna chip, so they probably sense what kind of voltage / current the dna draws and adapt accordingly. I don't really have a clue. It's also possible that not all charger boards support pass through vaping (Simultanious vaping / using the battery and charging it).

As for the current, afaik they charge with 500mA / 0.5 ampere and the dna can draw something like 13 ampere. But relevant is the voltage that is present at the chip.

If you google it you will probably find someone recommending suitable 1000mA boards for regulated mods.

they just use the board as a connecting point. You can't vape while charging. Draws way too much current.

Looking for something new that I like. Watch this space for new wit, halfwit, nitwit...

 

[MattB101]

WAY back in the day when I used to race RC cars (before I moved on to planes and helis) I would make my own packs. Soldering them was quite easy, but you HAVE to have a VERY high power iron. The battery (not to mention a nice big tab) sinks a LOT of heat... So you have to be able to get it hot VERY quickly. It seems counter intuitive, but the more heat you can get on it in a very short period of time, the less heat actually gets into the battery itself... If the iron isn't hot enough then all that heat is getting sucked in and builds up rather than just dispersing.

These however were NiCd and NiMH batteries... Not lithium... I really don't know how safe, if at all it is soldering on them... Spot welding would certainly be the safest bet.

I have a 100 watt Weller gun I was going to try. I might even try a butane micro torch.

Looking for something new that I like. Watch this space for new wit, halfwit, nitwit...

 

[MattB101]

It won't cause any problems... Think of it like this...

If you have some electronic device that requires say 3v... (Two AA batteries for instance) You can take 500 AA batteries all stacked in parallel and the device will run just perfectly... Albeit a REALLY REALLY long time..

Just as if I have a device that draws say 200mAh and feed it with a supply that is capable of 20A... It will happily run along all day long... Only drawing 200mAh... Just because a supply is capable of outputting a certain current doesn't mean it will... It's just what it's capable of delivering. A "charger" is nothing more than a slightly glorified power supply. A charger for one of our 18650 cells will deliver 4.2v... The battery voltage (assuming it's not charged) will be less than that... Which means the battery will draw current off the supply (the charger) and "store" that energy. A charger has a built in "current limiter" that prevents the battery from drawing any more than a certain current... Because otherwise it would try to draw too much energy into itself too fast to equalize the voltage difference between it and the charger. So it cuts back the current and "dribbles" it in instead...

Does that make sense?

Yes. I am looking for a higher output charging board so the two batteries will charge quicker. The 500 mah charger only provides 250 mah to each battery and that will be kind of slow. The SX350 mod I built has a 1000 mah charger module and can charge the two 18650 2100 mah batteries from around 3.5 volts to full in about 3 hours.

Looking for something new that I like. Watch this space for new wit, halfwit, nitwit...

 

[Ian444]

The DNA 40 datasheet says you can use other chargers, I can't see any problem using a 1 amp charger. If the charger was reasonable quality, I can't see any problem using it in pass-through mode either.

 

[MattB101]

Thanks. I do understand the basics, but my vocabulary is off. And now I understand a bit more So, if I understand it correctly it would be ok to use any charging board really as long as the battery can handle it, the DNA chip itself won't mind. Or am I still confused?

You are correct. No pass thru vaping. The board doesn't care as long as your not trying to power it with the charger. I normally charge with it of on the nightstand while I'm in standby in the bed next to it.

Looking for something new that I like. Watch this space for new wit, halfwit, nitwit...

 

[MattB101]

Well if you don't have a reverse polarity when charging (which makes sense I guess lol) then if both the battery is full and you charge you'd have twice the voltage at the input power of the dna chip. So you'll have to take care that the device supports "passthrough charging".

I just saw this note on a charging both: "Note : the device should be disconnected OUT when Charging start!!"

Not correct. The charge board control the voltage and tapers the charging current as the battery is fully charged. Powering up thr DNA board confuses the charge controller and can lead to overcharging the batteries. Bad things can happen when Lithium ion batteries are overcharged. No passthru vaping, charge boards are not designed as power supplies.

Looking for something new that I like. Watch this space for new wit, halfwit, nitwit...