"natural" nicotine better than "chemical nicotine"?

[sqirl1]

So I was at a smoke shop in my area to pick up some General Snus and an ACID cigar, and when I walk in, I hear the clerk telling some people that from what she heard, cigars in moderation and when smoked properly are actually good for your heart because they contain "natural nicotine" and not "chemical nicotine", when she was done I told her about snus and shes like "well if it contains chemical nicotine than it's just as bad for you as anything else, but if it just has the nicotine naturally found in tobacco you're probably right", and then I started talking about e-cigarettes and she said they gave her headaches, and I explained it's probably a PG sensitivity and she could get a VG base, and she says "yeah but it has chemical nicotine, so it's just as bad as cigarettes", and I'm like "I dunno.... I'm pretty sure its the actual smoke that ain't good for you" and she says something like "yeah but chemically refined nicotine is about 10X worse than natural nicotine".

what do you guys think? I think she's extremely misinformed and nicotine is nicotine. the worst part is she said she smokes cigarettes and thinks she might as well just smoke those because anything with "chemical nicotine" is just as bad.

 

[mjones]

not positive but, think she means what the cig companies do, where they chemically break it down and reform it into "crack" nicotine, then respray the crack nicotine back on the pressed particleboard sheet like tobacco they extract the nic from. I think they use an ammonia chemical wash to make the crack nicotine. There is a youtube vid on how this process works, but havent seen in in awhile.

 

[sqirl1]

oh yeah don't get me wrong, they do all kinds of things to the tobacco in cigarettes in general but even so, its sad that people think the nicotine alone is whats hurting you, its the smoke! of course there's nothing wrong with the occasional cigar, smoke from burning plastic is more dangerous than smoke from burning wood, same principal with cigarettes vs more un&@#%ed-with tobacco such as (good) cigars and pipe tobacco

 

[fsroq]

I think this lady happenes to work in a smoke shop, so what will she say?

 

[sqirl1]

I've actually seen a clerk vaping at one smoke shop I was at. of course the place only sold your typical N-Joy 51-trio kind of stuff. this was actually a specialty cigar shop I went to yesterday. sold the whole line of ACID cigars, which pleased me very much. gonna have to go there more often.

 

[JW50]

I'd say the first clerk doesn't know up from down. However, seems that I have read somewhere on this forum that there is a synthetically made nicotine. Seems like what I recall is that it is many times more expensive that nicotine extracted from tobacco. Also, and you probably know, high concentrations of nicotine are extremely hazardous. Also, seems like what I recall is the tobacco contains several alkaloids, nicotine being one and the one in highest concentration. There are of course different types of tobacco and nicotine/alkaloid concentrations can vary. What, by the way, is an ACID cigar?

 

[sqirl1]

I'd say the first clerk doesn't know up from down. However, seems that I have read somewhere on this forum that there is a synthetically made nicotine. Seems like what I recall is that it is many times more expensive that nicotine extracted from tobacco. Also, and you probably know, high concentrations of nicotine are extremely hazardous. Also, seems like what I recall is the tobacco contains several alkaloids, nicotine being one and the one in highest concentration. There are of course different types of tobacco and nicotine/alkaloid concentrations can vary. What, by the way, is an ACID cigar?

I think she was just talking about nicotine that's been "refined", as somebody else says "crack nicotine" or "freebase nicotine". and ACID is just a brand name of a cigar, its just a really good brand. theres actually an E-liquid want2vape makes that's extracted from one of them. most smoke shops have 1 or 2 of the varieties of the brand, but this place seems to have all varieties. if you like really fancy cigars you should check out the e-liquid extracted from one by want2vape.

ANYWAY, that brings me to this question: do e-cigs have that same "crack" nicotine in them or is it nicotine in it's natural state? I would think it's the later but can somebody who knows for sure clarify?

 

[Bagazo]

This thread talks about the pH of e-juice.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...equests/3204-ph-values-harshness-eliquid.html

The pH is what makes it nicotine salt (natural) or freebase (crackotine). Snus is crackotine and I think from what was posted in that thread so is e-juice because of having a pH above 7.

Wiki has this to offer on tobacco smoke:

Pipe and Cigar smoke are not inhaled because of its high alkalinity, which are irritating to the trachea and lungs. However, because of its higher alkalinity (pH 8.5) compared to cigarette smoke (pH 5.3), un-ionized nicotine is more readily absorbed through the mucous membranes in the mouth.[46] Nicotine absorption from cigar and pipe, however, is much less than that from cigarette smoke.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking#cite_note-46

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking

So it would seem that pipe and tobacco smoke is also crackotine but cigarette smoke is acidic so it would be natural. I think the clerk was misinformed.

 

[dk2]

There is also lots of debate on the radioactivity of tobacco and nicotine because of the fertilizers and pesticides used to grow tobacco plants some say this is worse for you than the actual smoke in causing cancer mutations. Nicotine extracted from tobacco would have this same radioactivity levels, as the tobacco which imo is bad. Chemically produced nicotine in a lab shouldn't be subject to this. If I had the choice I'd prefer lab produced nicotine over tobacco extracted nicotine. This is just my opinion.

 

[Kurt]

There is also lots of debate on the radioactivity of tobacco and nicotine because of the fertilizers and pesticides used to grow tobacco plants some say this is worse for you than the actual smoke in causing cancer mutations. Nicotine extracted from tobacco would have this same radioactivity levels, as the tobacco which imo is bad. Chemically produced nicotine in a lab shouldn't be subject to this. If I had the choice I'd prefer lab produced nicotine over tobacco extracted nicotine. This is just my opinion.

I agree that the Po is a contributor to smoke-related cancer, but I don't think it is true that there will be Po in the extracted and purified nicotine. The extraction process to obtain the nicotine without everything else in the tobacco would also separate any metals, such as polonium, as well as other bio-active metals (Mg, Zn, etc). Extracted l-nicotine (natural form, what we vape, what's in plants), given how they do it, should be completely free of Po, and it is chemically identical to the extremely expensive-to-synthesize l-nicotine.

Fact: there is NO synthetic nicotine in ANY nic juice sold to us by ANY vendor. It is ALL extracted nic, no matter what a vendor says, and no matter what spin they put on it, and some do put some pretty convincing spin on it. IF they were selling synthetic l-nic, you could expect to pay over 100x what you pay for nic now, at least. IF they were selling synthetic 50:50 l-nic:d-nic, the cheapest form of synthetic nic, you would still pay over 10x what you pay now, and it would be much less effective, since d-nic is about 1/3 the potency of l-nic. So less effective and 10x as costly, or same effectiveness and over 100x as costly. It's simply not happening. Nor should you believe any vendor that says that only their nic is natural nic, and other vendor's nic is synthetic, and thus not as good. Also cannot be true. Its ALL natural, ALL extracted, at least the nic we consume. How pure the extracted nic is, however, does have a range, but this affects the amount of other organic tobacco compounds present, as the purification is not as extensive. But even then, I would doubt there is any Po present, based on the extraction process itself. The large chemical differences between metals and nicotine would ensure this.

Unless evidence can be shown that there is Po in extracted nic, I have to stand by this, based on what I know of extraction chemistry. And I think this is all good news: no Po in our vapes, and the best nic is natural and among the least expensive.

 

[kinabaloo]

I agree that the Po is a contributor to smoke-related cancer, but I don't think it is true that there will be Po in the extracted and purified nicotine. The extraction process to obtain the nicotine without everything else in the tobacco would also separate any metals, such as polonium, as well as other bio-active metals (Mg, Zn, etc). Extracted l-nicotine (natural form, what we vape, what's in plants), given how they do it, should be completely free of Po, and it is chemically identical to the extremely expensive-to-synthesize l-nicotine.

Fact: there is NO synthetic nicotine in ANY nic juice sold to us by ANY vendor. It is ALL extracted nic, no matter what a vendor says, and no matter what spin they put on it, and some do put some pretty convincing spin on it. IF they were selling synthetic l-nic, you could expect to pay over 100x what you pay for nic now, at least. IF they were selling synthetic 50:50 l-nic:d-nic, the cheapest form of synthetic nic, you would still pay over 10x what you pay now, and it would be much less effective, since d-nic is about 1/3 the potency of l-nic. So less effective and 10x as costly, or same effectiveness and over 100x as costly. It's simply not happening. Nor should you believe any vendor that says that only their nic is natural nic, and other vendor's nic is synthetic, and thus not as good. Also cannot be true. Its ALL natural, ALL extracted, at least the nic we consume. How pure the extracted nic is, however, does have a range, but this affects the amount of other organic tobacco compounds present, as the purification is not as extensive. But even then, I would doubt there is any Po present, based on the extraction process itself. The large chemical differences between metals and nicotine would ensure this.

Unless evidence can be shown that there is Po in extracted nic, I have to stand by this, based on what I know of extraction chemistry. And I think this is all good news: no Po in our vapes, and the best nic is natural and among the least expensive.

More or less agree with Kurt.

Except that IMO the Po is the main cancer cause (my best estimate).

Key thing is : it is very unlikely that any Po will exist in any e-liquid.

 

[JW50]

More or less agree with Kurt.

Except that IMO the Po is the main cancer cause (my best estimate).

Key thing is : it is very unlikely that any Po will exist in any e-liquid.

Just curious - WHY (or really on what basis) do you think Po is main cancer cause? A particular type of cancer or all?

 

[kinabaloo]

Just curious - WHY (or really on what basis) do you think Po is main cancer cause? A particular type of cancer or all?

In my thread on Polonium there is reasearch that shows this to be the case. All the othr stuff weakens the defences, the Po fires the fatal blow.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In passing, saw the other day some reasearch on how topical caffeine can promote apoptosis of UV damaged cells.

And that Niacin form of vitamin B3 can clear arteries.

Truth gets supressed by those who stand to lose out, but it's there if you look, and are unafraid to not be a conformist drone.

 

[kinabaloo]

Many will know that (akpha) lipoic acid regenerates the anti-oxidant vitamins C and E, and can chelate heavy metals out of the body via its sulphur content. But the benefits go way beyond even those ...

Lipoic Acid Reverses Mitochondrial Decay

 

[JW50]

In my thread on Polonium there is reasearch that shows this to be the case. All the othr stuff weakens the defences, the Po fires the fatal blow.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In passing, saw the other day some reasearch on how topical caffeine can promote apoptosis of UV damaged cells.

And that Niacin form of vitamin B3 can clear arteries.

Truth gets supressed by those who stand to lose out, but it's there if you look, and are unafraid to not be a conformist drone.

Will check your links and guides. Actually Po is brand new to me. I've been walking around with my guard down I guess. But off top - you're not suggesting sunbathing in a coffee pot? Statins may assist with the arteries (as well as staying away from cigs). Seems to be some quackery out there relating to chelation but that may be the drone in me.

 

[kinabaloo]

Will check your links and guides. Actually Po is brand new to me. I've been walking around with my guard down I guess. But off top - you're not suggesting sunbathing in a coffee pot? Statins may assist with the arteries (as well as staying away from cigs). Seems to be some quackery out there relating to chelation but that may be the drone in me.

Statins are mostly a scam.

Despite the evidence all around, many people cling to the quaint belief that corporations and their puppets, such as congress and medics), are working in our interests.

 

[JW50]

Statins are mostly a scam.

Despite the evidence all around, many people cling to the quaint belief that corporations and their puppets, such as congress and medics), are working in our interests.

On what basis did you conclude that statins are a scam?

 

[jlarsen]

If i'm not mistaken, Snus IS chemically treated, to remove the TSNAs, but the nicotine that remains should be the "natural" nicotine that was in the tobacco to begin with... and when tobacco companies enhance the amount of nicotine in cigarettes, aren't they using nicotine extracted from tobacco and adding it to tobacco that already has nicotine in it? If so, then it isn't really "chemical nicotine", just "natural nicotine" that was extracted and purified. Since e-cig nicotine comes from an extraction process, it is "natural nicotine" from tobacco, and not synthesized in a lab. Of course, that is only done because it is cheaper than creating it synthetically (or so I've been told). In theory, synthesized nicotine would still be the same chemical as extracted nicotine, so it shouldn't matter.

My guess would be that the store clerk is misinformed and is confusing all the chemical additives in cigarettes that make them more addictive or make the nicotine more absorbable (and make the concentration of nicotine in the tobacco higher), and not actually a difference in the chemical makeup of synthesized nicotine versus extracted nicotine. I don't even know where synthesized nicotine would come from or what it would be used in, since it is not economical to produce. The particulate matter in a cigar or natural tobacco cigarette is what poses the biggest health threat anyway, not the nicotine so much. I wouldn't worry about the vendor's claims or the nicotine we are vaping. Her headaches were probably from dehydration and/or from getting too much nicotine (to high of a strength) when vaping, and maybe a PG/VG sensitivity - or it may just all be in her head, since she is prone to believing there is a difference between "chemical nicotine" and "natural nicotine". All natural substances have a chemical formula and name, just because something is a chemical doesn't mean it isn't also natural. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it isn't harmful (or that because it isn't natural, that it is harmful) - even poisons like cyanide and arsenic occur naturally.

Unlike nicotine, some chemicals are much cheaper to synthesize than they are to extract and refine. Vitamin C for example, a thousand milligrams of synthetic L-ascorbic acid (vitamin C) costs next to nothing. The same amount of vit. c extracted from a natural plant source would cost much more. There is a misconception among natural healers, health supplement providers, chiropractors, etc. that anything natural is safe and beneficial, and that anything synthetic is dangerous, even if it is the same substance, because it is chemical/synthesized/unnatural, that it has no value. There are probably a few exceptions, but for the most part this line of thinking is totally untrue.

 

[JW50]

Returning to the original post - I think situation there is hopeless. Perhaps best to let her alone so she can keep smoking and maybe become a statistic. There might even be a new statistic there. How many smokers continue to smoke because of the "natural" nicotine in cigarettes? There is an argument there that due to the processing of snus tobacco it is no longer "natural". But some, I suppose, might argue that putting ammonia with the processed snus restores is "natualality". Hope she smokes filtered "natural" cigarettes.

 

[Stubby]

If i'm not mistaken, Snus IS chemically treated, to remove the TSNAs, but the nicotine that remains should be the "natural" nicotine that was in the tobacco to begin with... and when tobacco companies enhance the amount of nicotine in cigarettes, aren't they using nicotine extracted from tobacco and adding it to tobacco that already has nicotine in it? If so, then it isn't really "chemical nicotine", just "natural nicotine" that was extracted and purified. Since e-cig nicotine comes from an extraction process, it is "natural nicotine" from tobacco, and not synthesized in a lab. Of course, that is only done because it is cheaper than creating it synthetically (or so I've been told). In theory, synthesized nicotine would still be the same chemical as extracted nicotine, so it shouldn't matter.

I don't know how you where able to fit so much misinformation in so few words. It's a wonder

Snus is not chemically treated to reduce the TSNA. It's the way it is processed. US type snuff is flu cured and fermented. Both of those processes increase the toxicity of the tobacco. The problem with fermentation is the process doesn't stop. It continues and as the tobacco sits on the shelf the TSNA levels increase. Even with that the TSNA levels of US made snuff has been dropping in recent years as they have refined the process, but of course it is still higher then Swedish snus.

Snus on the other had is air cured and then goes through a type of pasteurization. This essentially sterilizes the tobacco so the TSNA numbers stay very low even with long term storage. Snus can actually be frozen for several years without an increase in TSNA. Snus is not chemically treated to remove TSNA, though E500 (baking soda) is added to increase raise the PH level for more freebase nicotine. Get your facts straight before issuing your nonsense.