New Atomizer Coil Shape

[Scubabatdan]

Pretty cool Dan. This thread isn't just for my ideas. I'd like to see more proven methods with pics posted here. It got a sticky and doing this keeps all the info in one place.

Cartos are my next "target". lol It comes down to just a couple choices. You find or redo one so that wont burn using the existing materials, or make one like you did that wont.
I dont know if yours will eventually burn or not. Time and materials used will tell with use.
Silica seems to be the most fire resistant, but with some using HV, they can push temps above the 2300* on a dry burn. The stranded non-resin fiberglass seems to be a close 2nd.

So, if you vape at 3.7v, its possible to make an atty that doesnt burn, post it, and then someone uses it on 6v and cooks it to the ground and decides to call you on it.

Details and common sense need to be used in descriptions. We all have the same goal.
The best and safest vaping experience possible. I have an Idea for a redo on a carto, but plan to do it in a new carto thread. Then maybe we can start getting good carto info all in one place too. There is just to much good stuff spread all over the threads that gets lost. If links are found I don't mind a bit for them to be posted here if its a good proven thing.

My OP still works well on a standard atty. Variations are important as some cannot do certain things and may easily do another method.

Well I am working on my second one, here are some pics, again this is a 2.6ohms coil. But I am using 4 strands of the silica fire wick this time. I used the wetting technique to help compress the silica during the wrapping. Once the needle is removed it allows the silica to loosen in the wrap.
Dan

 

[Vaporer]

Nice, I'm liking the hit of 2.5ohms on 3.7v.
The LR (1.7-2ohms) seems to be a little to low and 3.2ohms can be a bit cold on many things.
Of course this is all assuming a battery of 900ma or greater. To much changing with stock penstyles.

The 4.5ohm works well, some flavors just aren't there and TH well..........
The main idea of the test was to prevent carbon from forming, making it cleanable.
I'm not sure this is ever gonna happen without temp regulation. There's alot of other factors too. Air draw cools, lack of it gets hot quick, even viscosity of liquids controls the amount of mist, which helps cool.

So many factors that I don't think there is the "ideal" atty. Just the one that serves your purpose and style giving you the best flavor, vapor, TH and longevity.

Many find the satisfaction in what is available and then there's the ones that just have to fool with it. lol

 

[Scubabatdan]

Nice, I'm liking the hit of 2.5ohms on 3.7v.
The LR (1.7-2ohms) seems to be a little to low and 3.2ohms can be a bit cold on many things.
Of course this is all assuming a battery of 900ma or greater. To much changing with stock penstyles.

The 4.5ohm works well, some flavors just aren't there and TH well..........
The main idea of the test was to prevent carbon from forming, making it cleanable.
I'm not sure this is ever gonna happen without temp regulation. There's alot of other factors too. Air draw cools, lack of it gets hot quick, even viscosity of liquids controls the amount of mist, which helps cool.

So many factors that I don't think there is the "ideal" atty. Just the one that serves your purpose and style giving you the best flavor, vapor, TH and longevity.

Many find the satisfaction in what is available and then there's the ones that just have to fool with it. lol

I am liking the 2.4-2.6 on 3.7v also good throat hit, seems to produce good flavor too. Out of curiosity have you ever tried wrapping the coil exclusivly in the silica wicking material? thus stopping the burning taste from the batting material no matter the voltage applied.
Dan

 

[hova]

omg i love that...


of course the other night while posting on here , my last atomizer died so im back to analogs till thursday when i can order some atties... i really wish they sold the atomizers somewhere locally....really reallywish...

anyways , i took one apart , and the outter mesh is what looked like there was glue on it. it seems to me that the atomizer design is both ingenius , and the worst thing i could come up with...

carto makes a lot more sense if the coil wasnt wrapped around what looks like a standard candle wick.

yeah i tried doing a little messing with it , and noticed that there was plastic or bakelite discs in the bottom of it , and im not real happy about that , but what can ya do.


btw : you should sell a rebuild kit... 2' of nichrome , a couple strands of silica , and some solder/flux ... that would be <3 ...


-hov


(even better : atomizer rebuild service )

 

[hova]

oh and as for using the fly tying vice for winding coils , it would be ok , but im sure you can do the same without. i was thinking of it the other day , and the roatary feature would make the coils look nice , but you still have to pull fibers through them , so its kind of moot...

on the other hand , i was sitting here thinking , what if you could wind a coil , then wrap a layer of silica over it , then put another coil on top... or possibly wind the first coil back over the silica , effictively doubling the coil.

this would do two things i think would help , 1: more even heating , and 2 : MORE heat.


also : i know you said something about looking into PWM , but has anyone tried using a contant current source , set below what the atomizer actually draws? if a normal coil runs 1A , maybe set it at .75 , and see if you still experience the super high temps. thats the only thing responsible for the carbon in my opinion. that , and dryness. aftertaking that atomizer apart , im suprized they work at all...


edit : i was thinking the double layer thing would probably work best in a situation likethe guy who was putting his homemade atomizer inside a glass tube.

 

[Vaporer]

Dan,
The final problem comes back to the juice burning and carbonizing. Even if the material doesnt, the juice will given the right conditions. There are just to many variables.
Best to learn to rebuild your attys if you can. If you make an atty that does work perfect for you, it may be horrible for the next person.

hova,
Some of the attys have what looks like silicone, some have a high heat tape wrap around the mesh, some have what looks like epoxied disc in the bottom, it goes on and on. There are basically 3 types of attys. Mesh, cartos with the "sock", and the looped fiber (GreenCig) type. Each of these have variables built in them. New ones show up any given day.

The person that used the fly vice was using it to hold the wick & core and then hand wrapping around it. I use a '3rd hand" myself. This method , you don't have to pull the wick through. The limited current & PWM will work for some and not others. Limiting the current will limit the heat potential. Then some will say not enough vapor or TH. You just cant please everyone with one atty. Many say attys are cheap and they want vapor & TH at any cost.

As far as the glass tube and the ceramic "project". Both are good ideas, but as I explained in other places you are adding dead thermal mass. This takes more heat and time to vaporize and cool. Not that it can't work, ppl start complaining batteries don't last with them. More NiCH length or dia adds active thermal mass. For battery life, especially in penstyle batteries, this is a plus. The later mods with huge batteries aren't as critical in this aspect.

It's a no win situation. I wrote the tutorials to enable ppl to rebuild their own in the event of a ban or for economy reasons. Also to make it better than it is (if they can). Perfect? I cant ever see it as ppls likes and dislikes differ as much as the flavors they like.
I repeatedly state that my way is not the only way, it does work. Surely there are other ways. Some will like them , some won't. Some love cartos , some hate them.

As for the "kits". Some will thank you, others will say the stuff is cheap and you are ripping ppl off. You cant change human nature.

I'd rather try to teach, explain and work on better designs and see others do the same.
Ppl have went as far as discussing laser or ultrasonic vaporization with computer chip controlled sprayers. The list is and can be endless. It still falls back on what people will accept, pay for and be happy with. Most dont have the materials needed to totally redesign a new atty. Size, cost, time and skill play large factors.

Here are 2 other threads I have that many have enjoyed on the subject:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...zer-coil-101-actual-working-methods-only.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...your-510-atomizer-step-step-801-901s-too.html

I will never discourage new ideas and attempts and am more than willing to discuss them. If I know the material will pose health issues, I'll bring them to attention and hope others would too. Simply, no one knows it all IMO.

 

[Scubabatdan]

Dan,
The final problem comes back to the juice burning and carbonizing. Even if the material doesnt, the juice will given the right conditions. There are just to many variables.
Best to learn to rebuild your attys if you can. If you make an atty that does work perfect for you, it may be horrible for the next person.

True but the main problem with cartos is when they begin to dry up and people keep using them they get so hot they melt the batting material. I have pulled enough apart to see that the batting is a giant black hole next to the coil. I do understand the carbonizing, that is where burn offs help, but with a carto you will melt the batting material, unless it is made of fire wick

Exibit A:
A step by step on making a carto from scratch out of a pill fob.


First drill 1/4" holes in both the top and bottom as such:

Now you can insert you choice of blank cart in the top one:

Next measure out your 36ga nichrome, solder the ends, and take 4 strands of silica fire wick and wrap your coil, I use a needle and medical clamps to hold it.

Now get an old carto connector and solder the ends to it, then push on a silicon tube and leave 1/8" clearance from the coil. In this picture I wrapped the coil with silica wick as a test to see if it keeps the batting from melting.

Insert new coil assembly into the bottom of the pill fob and press connector into place.

I used an old 801 atty to sheild the coil assy from the batting I was inserting:

Now I actually used silica fire wick material to see how this hols up, it is the loose strand kind, defeated the purpose of wraping the coil (I Know )

Trim:

And tuck the remainder in:

Now remove the 801 atty and lightly position the surrounding material down and close to the coil assy:

Fill.... (This held 5ml of liquid!) and put the top on:

Connect the battery:

Vape your heart out!

Well I hope this inspires some folks to try somthing different. Will report back on the taste of this, and how the silica material holds up.
Dan

 

[CloudBurst]

Dan- as usual, this is great stuff! I'm gonna give it a shot (never thought I'd be doing this) but I love it! Can you give us a parts list and where you got it?

 

[Scubabatdan]

Dan- as usual, this is great stuff! I'm gonna give it a shot (never thought I'd be doing this) but I love it! Can you give us a parts list and where you got it?

Sure all the links for the silica rope and wire are in post one (Thanks again Vaporer!)

McMaster-Carr

I bought this for the coil wick:
8818K42, I the cut 4" off of the coil and pulled 4 strands out of it.

I used this for the packing material around the coil assy:
8850K11, I only used one of the 3 braids to pack with.

And the nichrome is from the link Vaporer posted in post one.
Nichrome Wire

I bought the pill fobs from wallgreens, light alluminum and anodized inside and out.
Search Results | Walgreens

Battery connecter from an old cartomizer.

Hope this helps,
Dan

Added......

I couldnt help myself I had to see what this did at 4.5v @ 1600ma
It is a beast! WOOOOOWW

 

[nicotime]

Hows it going Dan? That red carto of yours reminds me of the old Cherry Bomb glass pack mufflers I had on my Cuda.LOL

Hey...have you ever played around with any flat ribbon nichrome wire? I wonder if the increased surface area would be a benefit or a problem when it starts to carbonize? If the carbon had somewhere to go instead of being held against the coil by the packing I think it would work great.

Also..do you know of any good pics of cartos that have been disassembled on here? I have only ever used and seen the 510 attys so I'm not familiar with the carto...guess I should be huh.

Oh...I finally got my supplies in and I made a touch switch with your drawing...works great..Thanks. I used 2-30Mohm resistors for the 4.7Mohm because I have dry hands.

Good to hear from you again!

 

[Scubabatdan]

Hows it going Dan? That red carto of yours reminds me of the old Cherry Bomb glass pack mufflers I had on my Cuda.LOL

Hey...have you ever played around with any flat ribbon nichrome wire? I wonder if the increased surface area would be a benefit or a problem when it starts to carbonize? If the carbon had somewhere to go instead of being held against the coil by the packing I think it would work great.

Also..do you know of any good pics of cartos that have been disassembled on here? I have only ever used and seen the 510 attys so I'm not familiar with the carto...guess I should be huh.

Oh...I finally got my supplies in and I made a touch switch with your drawing...works great..Thanks. I used 2-30Mohm resistors for the 4.7Mohm because I have dry hands.

Good to hear from you again!

Red is a favorite
Have not used the flat ribbon wire
Posted some I disected but cant find them at the moment will find them for ya.
Glad to hear the touch switch is working for you! I probably need to go to 30Mohm myself.
Nice to be seen again LOL, been doing school work and am constantly busy. All done with my BS degree July 31st! Cant wait.
TTYL
Dan

 

[Scubabatdan]

Ok after 4 hours of vaping and 2 batteries later here is what the carto looks like on the inside. As of now there has not been one puff that tasted burnt, very full flavored! You will aslo notice I removed the silica wicking material from around the coil (not needed)
Dan

 

[hova]

that is lovely . there is hope after all.

i was wondering if all the complicated misting and whatnot is really necessary , as its basically a wick anyways , and if you can wick fluid , why wouldnt you just use the wick to feed it....

i love this , i think i have a new solution to my constant dripping problem , and my no-atomizer problem. is that high temp wire connecting your coil ? i have my doubts about the quality of insulation on most wire , and enameled wire if i remmeber correctly , you heat to remove the varnish .


that thing is so awesome , the wife is going to love you for saving me the stress of waiting on atties , now if only i could find that halo recipe...


and i know what you mean vapr-r , not everyone likes the same thing , but i think that heating something like glass or even silicon carbide , that doesnt burn or give bad gasses etc , would be the better starting point. after seeing dans atty , i think everyone who makes ecigs needs to be a little worried.

-hov

-hov

 

[hova]

also : i know a lot of people like actual switches you can touch , but has anyone messed with reed switches? i think this would dramatically cut down on switch failure. only thing is , based on my idea , you would need a magnetic ring , and even then , you could theoretically have some non-intended use , but i was thinking the other day the "magic stick" , where you hold it , and the reed is right inside , slip your finger over the little spot , and magically have vape.


just thinking since they are sealed , you wouldnt have to replace it for at least 10 years.
not as usefull if your pv is a solid chunk of metal though...

-hov

 

[CloudBurst]

I have recently converted to LR attys, how long would the wire need to be to get around 1.5-1.8 ohms? Akso, do you need to use a carto or would regular atty parts be the same thing?
This is the answer to all my juice problems if I can do it! I've been looking for something like this to be able to use my mods that have been collecting dust since I started making the juice boxes.

 

[Scubabatdan]

I have recently converted to LR attys, how long would the wire need to be to get around 1.5-1.8 ohms? Akso, do you need to use a carto or would regular atty parts be the same thing?
This is the answer to all my juice problems if I can do it! I've been looking for something like this to be able to use my mods that have been collecting dust since I started making the juice boxes.

Well 10 hours, and I have gone through 5 batteries ( I have been using 240ma 3.7v auto batteries to see how it will perform) Well I havent had to refill in 10 hours and no burnt taste.

To answer your Q, 1.7ohms is 15mm using 36ga nichrome.
The benifit to using the carto center pole is it is 13.5mm long rising 10mm above the base of the connector allowing you to put an extra riser tube on it. The higher the tube the more liquid it can hold. If you used a stock connector for example the liquid would run out the bottom. With the carto center piece put in place of the 510 center piece you can make the height 20mm, that way you can put 20mm of liquid in before it runs out the bottom.

This make sense?
Dan

Have a look at the diagram I made, and look at the differance between the atomizers center post in the second pic, from left to right; 1st: 510, 2nd: 901, 3rd: 801, last: cartomizer.
The third pic is a 510 atty connector with a carto centerpost

 

[Vaporer]

Some pretty good stuff showing up. Nice work!
I like lots of good clear pics too. That was commonly missing so many times in some good posts. It said how to do it, and many could, but more can work from good pics, drawings and a suggested material list.

Nichrome, when it just glows red is approx 1900*. Silica is rated for 2300*.
Those that use HV & do the dry burns would need to look closely. I'd be inspecting during stages of use. Normal 3.2 ohm attys are putting out abt 4 watts of heat.
The HV and LR's can easily exceed 10watts of heat. That is pushing it hard.

Amorphous silica seems to be the choice material, for now, but at HV of 5 & 6v I'd be watching close for it to burn. You can get well above "just glowing" with a 3.7v dry burn.

That's what I'm seeing in cartos I've stripped so far. They are burnt and some don't taste like it. Some had the hole there for coil exposure and others just plainly burnt the hole in it, not just the edges of the existing hole. No ones wants to suck that burnt crap, whatever it is, into their lungs.
The trouble I see with the "sock style" is they all burn. At least so far. The GreenCig Loop style lets the wire only touch the silica wick. The loop wicks from a cartridge above it. The heat it produces only hardens the polyfil type material in the cart, not burning it. Polyfil & Fluval all seem to eventually adsorb a nasty taste and harden from heat. Some shrinkage is noticed on the "face" normally.

35-36ga wire is a good choice IMO. Factory used to be 38ga, but I've seen it getting bigger in some cases. It's 27ohms per foot(36ga). Divide by 12 inches and you get: 2.25ohms per inch.
Easy to calculate what you want from there. Its all listed in the beginning of the tutorials I mentioned earlier. Even the smallest solder joints or connections, 1 inch will end up less than 2 ohms.

Dan,
I was imagining using the mesh from an old atty wrapped as the center post(tube).
Replacing the silicone tubing. Using that method allows all the storage area to spray up the "tube" when a draw is taken. Haven't had a chance to give that a try yet as I just started testing the cartos. I had made a wickless coil, for a standard atty but there wasn't enough mist. A mesh tube should give a higher feed, directly targets the coil, and not have that issue.

nicotime,
Ribbon nichrome wire is gonna be pretty long if you look up the ohms per foot.

hova,
There have been reed switches used in autos. I have 2 now. The magnet is on a silicone diaphragm and when you draw, its pulled towards the reed switch. Both are in e-cigars. The reed switch still switches a FET.

I've used enameled wire for abt a yr and never had the coating fail. It just doesn't get hot enough when used as a replacement.

Some of the issues that came up with the glass and ceramic was insuring a certainty that if dropped, failed, shattered, heat degraded or any physical failure that no particles could enter the lungs. That is pretty tough to guarantee.

You might think I'm to critical of some things, but read the rules at the top of any modder page. Postings are to adhere to many even down to "non-excessive amperages". A lot of research goes into any materials suggested, or should, among other things.
No one wants anyone to be injured or be held liable.
Reckless use cannot be controlled.

 

[hova]

yeah i understand the reliability aspect of using glass or even quartz for that matter , but i think that someone with a glass atty would take all precautions when using it. i forget the rule of people is to do as much as possible without thinking about what youre doing , so i see the problem there. theoretically , i feel that is the best solution , with glass outter that would heat the inners , as the glass is more inert than the heaters we have now.

i really like that carto design , and as soon as thursday gets here , im going to get teh materials to make em up . i think im probably going to run with an RCA power connector setup , as i was using my 4boxxy mod , and im not a big fan of trying to unscrew things that are epoxied.

i figured the autos had a small vacuum sensing switch somewhere in the circuitry , but now that you mention it , i do recal a silicone nipple , i thought was to seal off the atty from th batty , but now i guess we know what that was for...lol...


anyways , i definately liked the way the greencig carts looked , as i have had my doubts about using poly and fluval , and even though it seems to work , the PTB mod.

i think if you got some stainless mesh screens and made your center tube , you wouldnt have to mess with trying to find the normal mesh thats inside of the atty. im thinking that a mesh tube , with the carto method above , would actually decrease the chances of burning.

another thing that was in my head , was getting the silica rope , and furling it. then actually making a wet resovoir , with the custom wick feeding straight into the coil. i used a similiar design in a hydroponic watering vessel (a pot within a pot , with a wick from one to the other) , worked wonderfully , but that was to water a plant , with water... so...yeah...


i wonder what the temperature rating and wicking ability is of some carbon nanotubes. i think if they could handle the heat without singe-ing , then that might even be the ticket.

-hov

 

[hova]

oh and the reed switch i was looking at was 1/4 or 1/2 in long , i was figuing to use it directly , without a fet or other transistor setup , but im sure you could ghetto rig some PWM with a couple 3906 , flip flop style...

hmm...555 pwm , im sur is been thought of , but i still didnt see if you have tested the limited current aspect. i know running a 2 or 3c lipo would be great for an e-hooka or something , but most o my knowledge is theoretical , unless it relates to cars or pc's .


-hov

 

[Scubabatdan]

Some pretty good stuff showing up. Nice work!

Well if you like that have a gander at this concept, a carto hybrid with a quick change coil and still using the pill fob concept. Closed battery connection of course that way no leakage. Also if the coil burns out, simple to replace. Hmmm now looking at this I could do a pemamant loop from the hole in the cup that touches the coils that also has a small amount of silica wrapped in there. That way you can remove the bottom and change out the coil with out having to remove the wick to the cup.
Dan