New Member + A bone to pick with the community

[CalamityJess]

I personally think smoking is easier, so smokers keep smoking, they light them up, smoke em, stub em out, done !. People prefer convenience and are always looking for an easier way to do something. Most smokers i know wouldn't quit to become vapers because it's too complicated compared to smoking. People that smoke coudn't care less about their health either. Plus there is the disposable side to smoking whereas vaping isn't. Smoking is simply just a carefree lifestyle choice. Carefree, arrogant, ignorant couldn't careless attitude to life. It's more about attitude than it is about anything else really i think. Smokers look at vapers and wonder "what's the point of that ?". I'm beginning to think that anyone that takes up vaping was never really cut out to smoke in the first place. Being a smoker is tricky in the sense that peer pressure reinforces the need to smoke. That's an addiction in itself !. The only thing that keeps a vaper vaping is the fear of going back to smoking, but that's all, fear !. Turns out being afraid does actually have it's uses. So if you vape for long enough, fear sets in, and you're laughing. Smoking is one thing and vaping is something else. If a person chooses one or the other then they made a bad choice in either case, but it was their choice !. You can't blame other people for the choices you make.

I can't even....Did you ever smoke? Because you sound like every non smoker I have ever heard speak about smoking

I Smoked a pack a day for 24 years. Not because it was fun, not because I was carefree and reckless (I outgrew that by the time I was 18 by which I'd been smoking for two years)...and I sure as heck cared about my health. But see there was this problem every time I tried to quit. Shakes, cold sweats, nausea, panic attacks, physical PAIN in the form of migraines and muscle spasms. My withdrawal was so bad in my first pregnancy myown Doc said to wait until AFTER birth to quit because it was likely to affect my pregnancy! (I was 19 then, 21 with my second)

Peer pressure by then? Non existent...noone I knew except my husband smoked, and he sure didn't pressure me to keep going. My best friend recently started vaping...I didn't look at it as anything but potential to be the right tool for the job. Patches, Gum, lozenges, drugs, those all failed me. Vaping changed my life.

Smokers don't smoke because they're stupid, careless, or for attitude. Smokers smoke because they are addicted. Anyone remember the big stink when it was discovered that tobacco companies were slowly but surely INCREASING the nic in cigarettes? (New ports were up to 3.2m by 2006). They created addicts and wanted to KEEP them. You might want to give the smokers you know a little more credit and benefit of the doubt.

Vaping was a lifestyle choice, to get OFF the 4000 chemicals in cigarettes. A tool to reduce harm, get to the point that you have weaned off nicotine (I just stepped down to 18mg juice from 24). When I picked up my first cigarette at 16 because I was young and stupid and thought it was "cool" I wasn't CHOOSING to be a slave to it half of my life. So yeah, initial first cig? Maybe it's about fitting in, looking cool, flipping off the grownups and rebelling. But continuing isn't a choice at all and BT makes sure of it.

I thank god every day that my kids are healthy adults, that I'm healthy, and that I found vaping. I just wish I'd have had that option years ago.

(Burn In He Cigarettes: 1990-2014)

 

[3Hunna]

I would link the thread where I saw the unsupported claims and scaring off the new member in literally the first 10 posts in that poor guy's thread, but that would mean dropping the names of a lot of members on this forum who are probably still active.

I guess the idea of vaping as more than a smoking alternative but a culture, aesthetic, hobby, and passion in itself has to be realised if we are to truly save vaping from any political clutches. It would give us bigger power to the people, it would make vaping more of the norm and cigarette's slowly phasing out, and I truly see vaping doing that due to its cost efficiency compared to cigarettes and the depth of knowledge and variables that make vaping a lot more diverse and interesting.

I mean $4.99 per 10mL flavour which could last an ego clearomizer chain vaper 1-2 days compared to the 5-7 dollars in the states per pack or $10-$30 in Australia. The cost efficiency is a lot more better if people get into concentrates and DIY. Plus the majority of the money in the first few months of vaping may be going to gear, which is a lot more productive than cigarettes since you'll be learning something in the progress whether that be about the gear, or the electrical laws behind it (which apply to everyday life too), or how to make coils, etc.

If we have more people vaping, we will have more people able to protest against the media. I've seen the Australian media blatantly lie about the dangers of vaping to the point that multiple members of the Aussievapers forum complained to Free TV Australia which overlook Australian television for the purpose of giving a voice to the public whether they like what they see or not and it made several tv stations apologize at one point or another. If we're able to equip ourselves with the knowledge from people who do studies on vaping such as E-Cigarette Research then we'll be able to have a stronger voice against all the legislation against e-cigarettes, we'll have a better representation in court whenever the worst comes to worst. I remember someone going to court to repeal his fine for vaping on a train station just to clear that it was not a cigarette and it definitely opened a hole in the justice system.

This is why we shouldn't get into the habit of saying "oh we don't know the effects, so be careful", when there are people working hard right now finding the effects of vaping on the cellular level and their findings (peer-reviewed and independently reviewed so you know they're trustworthy) are easily found on ecigarette-research, NCBI (very useful source for biology research), as well as other biology and research websites. (although you get those few papers that are funded by corporations to use against their competitors, but you'll honestly be able to filter through that based on language, research methods, how random is random selection, how many people participated, etc).

My point is that we have gone beyond thinking "oh there's not enough research, i wouldnt recommend vaping to non-smokers" because we have the plethora of ever-growing objective information in front of us. We should recommend vaping to non-smokers because chances are that they may have considered smoking analogs, but because of the added option of vaping today, that they are moving away from starting their habit with analogs.

Here are several summaries of research conducted on vaping that I find truly important and objective enough since they do link to the actual research papers/presentations from a researching body:

1) The danger is not in nicotine or PG/VG but certain flavour concentrated, even that is significantly less dangerous than cigarettes: http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2013/135-evaluation-of-the-cytotoxic

2) A summary of the dialogue between vapers and scientific researchers in terms of faults in their research: http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2014/156-pahs-response

3) "Electronic cigarettes: no adverse effects on blood and oxygen supply to the heart" (with video presentation of the European Society of Cardiology explaining the lack of adverse effects on the circulatory system: http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2013/127-no-adverse-effects

A more open community means a bigger community, a more informed community means a well-equipped community, a bigger and smarter community means a louder, diverse and united voice in our rights as vapers.

 

[FireDragon1138]

Does this apply to smokeless tobacco, aka snuff? I started dipping Copenhagen when I was very young. I switched to smoking because of the shakes and the whole nine yards associated with addiction. If there is no evidence to support this, then what's the purpose of vaping?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I577 using Tapatalk

For a percentage of smoker's, nicotine is only a small role in their addiction. That's why vaping works for some, and not for others. Vaping rarely delivers the alkaloids found in whole tobacco, such as snuff. That's why vaping seems to do better with smokers that are addicted to the smoking rituals, rather than simply needing a nicotine fix.

 

[coalyard]

Well....that is me, although I mouth vape, I do not lung inhale. I am sitting here enjoying no nic blue honey as I type this. I have lost a nice ten pounds since I started vaping, I am not sure where the "BS" comes in. I do not understand why it is so incomprehensible that someone could enjoy flavors and fluffy clouds if they were never a smoker

Sorry, Patty. I did say "I am sure there are exceptions." as well as qualified my statement by wondering why anyone would use an addictive substance (nicotine) if they are not already using it via smoking cigarettes. You said in your post that you mouth inhale, as well as you vape no nicotine juice. Clearly, my post wasn't directed at you.

Sorry for any misunderstanding, Ma'am

 

[lightbud404]

 

[coalyard]

Vaping has become a thing with young people lately. It's bigger than you think and it's not good for the rest of us.

So is drinking. So is driving too fast. So is having underage sex, to name just three. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I am not trying to attack you, but are we to then stop doing all of these things (except for the underage sex), and be treated as children ourselves because some people are unwilling or unable to properly regulate what their children are up to?

I understand it is difficult to raise children; I am fortunately done with it, my son is 25 years old, but I do understand. It is hard sometimes, and we all make mistakes. I did myself, but that is no reason to lower the rest of society to a child's level. I suppose we disagree here, and I do respect your point of view.

I have said it many times, and I will repeat it now. It is not about the children. It never was about the children. It is, and always will be about exerting control.

 

[Nermal]

I guess the idea of vaping as more than a smoking alternative but a culture, aesthetic, hobby, and passion in itself has to be realised if we are to truly save vaping from any political clutches.

Outstanding post, Hunna.

 

[Denon53]

So is drinking. So is driving too fast. So is having underage sex, to name just three. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I am not trying to attack you, but are we to then stop doing all of these things (except for the underage sex), and be treated as children ourselves because some people are unwilling or unable to properly regulate what their children are up to?

I understand it is difficult to raise children; I am fortunately done with it, my son is 25 years old, but I do understand. It is hard sometimes, and we all make mistakes. I did myself, but that is no reason to lower the rest of society to a child's level. I suppose we disagree here, and I do respect your point of view.

I have said it many times, and I will repeat it now. It is not about the children. It never was about the children. It is, and always will be about exerting control.

Excellant Point CoalYard, in most cases, it is all about Control. Live and Let Live.

 

[CalamityJess]

Well....that is me, although I mouth vape, I do not lung inhale. I am sitting here enjoying no nic blue honey as I type this. I have lost a nice ten pounds since I started vaping, I am not sure where the "BS" comes in. I do not understand why it is so incomprehensible that someone could enjoy flavors and fluffy clouds if they were never a smoker

Zero nic as a weight loss tool, that's a use I never would have though of. But it makes sense, that the taste of something sweet (or salty, creamy, etc) would curb those cravings. That's great! And I learned something new.

I also forgot about 0 nic juice. Yeah, if people want to puff away with 0 nic awesome.

But I hope they ( the hobbyists out to chase clouds, I know the people that find some help from vaping will) stand and fight back with the rest rather than just say "well it was fun while it lasted, bye!" when the governments are trying to stamp it out and leave those of us that need it to stay of cigarettes alone. That's all I ask.

 

[Ryedan]

Does this apply to smokeless tobacco, aka snuff? I started dipping Copenhagen when I was very young. I switched to smoking because of the shakes and the whole nine yards associated with addiction. If there is no evidence to support this, then what's the purpose of vaping? I totally disagree with the article related. However this is my opinion, and I have stated twice already in this thread, to each their own, and I really don't care what anyone else does. I only specified that I would never suggest picking up vaping to someone not already addicted to tobacco of some sort, regardless of some article with no scientific reference to it. Said article actually just looked like one mans opinion.

I have no personal experience with snuff so I will only say I doubt it is as addictive as smoking. You were a bit unclear about the next part. Are you saying that dipping Copenhagen caused you to have shakes? Or was there something else involved?

I smoked for 37 years. I then switched to vaping with nicotine for about nine months. By then I had slowly weaned myself off of it. A few months after that I felt I was really free of the cigarette addiction and would never smoke again.

I then went back to vaping nicotine for a month and then went off it again. I've stayed off since then. It was not addictive for me to vape nicotine for a month.

This experience is how I know nicotine is not addictive for me, but cigarettes are. A lot of long time vapers have an easy time lowering their nic levels if they try to, but not everyone. Almost anything can be addictive for some people. Sex, gambling, adrenaline, you name it and someone probably has an addiction to it. But for me and a lot of other people nicotine by itself is not addicting. I did my own research and along with my experience that's why I believe what I do.

Your opinion is completely valid for you and I am not even trying to change your mind. I posted to give you exposure to my viewpoint. It is one that is lost in a sea of smoking addiction research which all says 'nicotine is addictive'. The problem is they did not researched nicotine addiction, they researched cigarette addiction, which includes some 3,000 chemicals not found in nicotine. If this makes sense to you, you can chose to look further into it, or not

As I said in my previous post in this thread I don't think it's ethical to encourage people who have never smoked to take up vaping but not because of the nicotine addiction risk. I would help them do it only if they understood the health risks and still wanted to.

Peace and vape on

 

[Ryedan]

Smokers don't smoke because they're stupid, careless, or for attitude. Smokers smoke because they are addicted.

I was thinking most of same things you posted when I read his post. Very well said Jess and I totally agree.

I could only like it once so ...


LIKE, LIKE, LIKE

 

[Ryedan]

Vaping has become a thing with young people lately. It's bigger than you think and it's not good for the rest of us.

So is drinking. So is driving too fast. So is having underage sex, to name just three. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I am not trying to attack you, but are we to then stop doing all of these things (except for the underage sex), and be treated as children ourselves because some people are unwilling or unable to properly regulate what their children are up to?

I understand it is difficult to raise children; I am fortunately done with it, my son is 25 years old, but I do understand. It is hard sometimes, and we all make mistakes. I did myself, but that is no reason to lower the rest of society to a child's level. I suppose we disagree here, and I do respect your point of view.

I have said it many times, and I will repeat it now. It is not about the children. It never was about the children. It is, and always will be about exerting control.

No problem coalyard, I in no way took your post as an attack

I did not say we should ban vaping. I was pointing out what I see happening and that I think it may end up being bad for vaping. The majority of vape shops are I believe doing the right thing and not selling to minors which is great. There are some however that will sell to minors and that's not good.

My response was to a post from someone doubting underage vaping happened much. IMO it happens often enough to be a potential problem for us and we should do what we can to discourage it before someone uses it as an excuse to control vaping more than they would have otherwise.

Vape on

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Zero nic as a weight loss tool, that's a use I never would have though of. But it makes sense, that the taste of something sweet (or salty, creamy, etc) would curb those cravings. That's great! And I learned something new.

I also forgot about 0 nic juice. Yeah, if people want to puff away with 0 nic awesome.

But I hope they ( the hobbyists out to chase clouds, I know the people that find some help from vaping will) stand and fight back with the rest rather than just say "well it was fun while it lasted, bye!" when the governments are trying to stamp it out and leave those of us that need it to stay of cigarettes alone. That's all I ask.

Yes, in the first post I put up in this thread I tried to be very clear that IMO, no matter what the reason for vaping, we need to stick together to keep it accessible for all adults who wish to partake. As far as the weight loss, it is not just the flavors, but the activity of vaping, the whole hand mouth thing that also helps. It is something you can do over long periods of time here and there to keep from grabbing a potato chip. Additionally, for me as a no nic vaper, strict regulation can feel even more violating because I am not even consuming nicotine....it being the battle cry that supposedly makes e cigs "tobacco products". I am with anyone willing to stand up to maintain a freedom that is seemingly much less harmful than many other things accessible to the public (alcohol, caffeine, cigarettes, snuf, and another substance being legalized in various states).

 

[Ryedan]

This is why we shouldn't get into the habit of saying "oh we don't know the effects, so be careful", when there are people working hard right now finding the effects of vaping on the cellular level and their findings (peer-reviewed and independently reviewed so you know they're trustworthy) are easily found on ecigarette-research, NCBI (very useful source for biology research), as well as other biology and research websites. (although you get those few papers that are funded by corporations to use against their competitors, but you'll honestly be able to filter through that based on language, research methods, how random is random selection, how many people participated, etc).

My point is that we have gone beyond thinking "oh there's not enough research, i wouldnt recommend vaping to non-smokers" because we have the plethora of ever-growing objective information in front of us. We should recommend vaping to non-smokers because chances are that they may have considered smoking analogs, but because of the added option of vaping today, that they are moving away from starting their habit with analogs.

Vaping is estimated to carry about 99% less risk than smoking by medical people who have studied it. Heck, even if the estimate was half the risk of smoking I would still vape rather than smoke.

I hear you 3Hunna, but I don't agree with you. You're basically saying we should tell everyone that vaping has no risk and everyone should feel comfortable doing it if they feel like it.

Quoting you from above, "there are people working hard right now finding the effects of vaping". IMO this is accurate.

One of those people is Dr Farsalinos. He has recently crowdfunded some research he feels is necessary to make sure that what is actually in some of our juices is safe. You've probably seen the thread concerning this, but in case you have not yet here it is. That is some great research that is as you said, happening now, which will add to what we already know and there is more that still needs to be done.

It is unethical to tell people there is nothing to worry about unless you know there is nothing to worry about. I'm not saying we should inflate the risks to keep people from vaping because there might be issues. I also realize we will not be absolutely sure of what the long term risks actually are for a couple more decades. But before I will tell someone who has not smoked and is not interested in smoking that vaping is perfectly safe, I want to see more research done.

That's me though and what works for me. YMMV

 

[jensy]

First off I have never read on this forum where someone has said vaping is a gateway to cigarettes . That is something the ANTZ likes to spout off about.

It comes down to common sense really , I would never encourage a non smoker to vape the same as I would never encourage a person who has never touched alcohol to drink . It comes down to I would never encourage anyone to start a habit or an addiction. But to me that is just common sense.

 

[No Nic Chick]

I will make my story short. When I was younger, I thought smoking was 'cool' I eventually tried a couple here and there for the flavor. As I got a little older, I thought smoking was 'stress relief' I would watch friends and coworkers experience stress and then say I need a cigarette. I even bought a pack here and there for that relief.

Ultimately, I believe we need to find better ways to have fun and relieve stress. Vaping is certainly better than smoking. I think that a 'smoke break' should be for everyone. I think that leaving your work area for a break on the hour should be mandatory. The quality of work produced would be faster and accurate. If you find that relief in vaping, I won't knock anyone for that. Anyone with google would know that there are safety concerns involved but you could say that about anything.

 

[zanedog]

Nicotine is not addictive. Smoking is very addictive.

Rolygate on Nicotine Myths. IMO he's got it right.

I don't totally agree with what is said in Rolygates post. Sure, most of the human studies were done on smokers, however, smoking is the main delivery method for the drug. There have been animal studies where the nicotine is delivered without smoking, addictive characteristics have been verified.

Nicotine and Other Tobacco Constituents

Tobacco products contain more than 4,000 chemicals, some of which could contribute to dependence. However, there is little debate that nicotine is a major tobacco component responsible for addiction (USDHHS 1988; Stolerman and Jarvis 1995; Royal College of Physicians of London 2000; Balfour 2004). Nicotine, 3-(1-methyl-2-pyrrolidinyl)pyridine, is a volatile alkaloid (pKa = 8.5) with a molecular weight of 162.23. The absorption and renal excretion of nicotine are highly dependent on pH. At a high (alkaline) pH, nicotine is in the nonionized state, which is associated with the ability to more easily pass through lipoprotein membranes (Stratton et al. 2001). Nicotine can be rapidly absorbed in the lungs through cigarette smoking because of the large surface area of the alveoli and small airways and the dissolution of nicotine in pulmonary fluid, which has a physiological pH that facilitates absorption. Similarly, nicotine from oral products that have an alkaline pH can be readily but more gradually absorbed through the oral mucosa. In addition, nicotine can be well absorbed in the small intestine, because of its more alkaline pH and large surface area. However, nicotine is poorly absorbed from the stomach, because of its acidic environment resulting in greater ion-ized nicotine. Unlike when it is swallowed, nicotine’s bio-availability is greater through the lung or through the oral mucosa because nicotine reaches systemic circulation before passing through the liver (first-pass metabolism).

Earlier studies that examined a wide range of animal species have shown that nicotine alone can lead to self-administration in preference to an inert control substance (Henningfield and Goldberg 1983; USDHHS 1988; Swedberg et al. 1990; Rose and Corrigall 1997; Royal College of Physicians of London 2000). Humans have also demonstrated a preference for nicotine over a control substance in studies examining intravenous administration (Henningfield and Goldberg 1983; Harvey et al. 2004), nasal administration (Perkins et al. 1996a), and use of medicinal gum (Hughes et al. 1990a).

full article from above quote:
Nicotine Addiction: Past and Present - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf

and many more links below. There is really not much debate in the scientific community, the peer reviewed papers are numerous. Yes, they indicate that tobacco increases the addictiveness of the nicotine, however, that does not negate the basic premise, that yes, nicotine is an addictive substance.


https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/content/featured-study-understanding-nicotine-addiction
Characterization of spontaneous and pre... [J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
Animal models of nicotine withdrawal: intra... [Methods Mol Biol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of nicotine in experimental anim... [Handb Exp Pharmacol. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI
Nicotine withdrawal traced to very specific group of brain cells

A Critique of Nicotine Addiction - Hanan Frenk, Bassam Tabbara, Reuven Dar, Abdallah Tabbara, Alberto Sangiovanni-Vincentelli - Google Books

Biological Research on Addiction: Comprehensive Addictive Behaviors and ... - Google Books

Studies Link Family of Genes to Nicotine Addiction | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)

Gene Linked to Early Nicotine Addiction

the volume of research indicating nicotine is an addictive substance, is huge. And again, yes, much of the human studies were done with smokers and ex smokers of course. Can Rolygate come up with any Peer Reviewed papers published in a reputable medical or scientific journal indicating nicotine is not addictive?

edit:

As far as the human nonsmoker testing some people are looking for, I do belief the ethics behind that are not going to allow it to be done. You can't be exposing a population to a potentially addictive substance and work under the guise of 'do no harm' at the same time. The researchers will stick to rats and mice, and likely monkey for things like that. Read the following, who's gonna use human adolescents to prove brain chemistry changes that have been studied in rodents? Not my kid thats for sure, they can stick to rats and mice for this kind of research.

In animals, nicotine treatment during adolescence leads to neurochemical changes in the brain that differ from those observed in adults (Adriani et al. 2002; Slotkin 2002). Furthermore, studies show an increased sensitivity to the rewarding effects of nicotine in adolescent compared with adult rodents (Adriani et al. 2002; Levin et al. 2003; Belluzzi et al. 2004). Further research is needed to understand the mechanism(s) by which acetaldehyde enhances the reinforcing effects and other effects of nicotine.

The lack of human models for these experiments is self evident, you can't be doing this kind of experimentation on humans in this day and age! Nicotine is addictive. It is a brain stimulant producing tremulousness, increased heart rate and blood pressure, and, at high doses, convulsions. It acts on the nicotinic receptors of the autonomic nervous system to increase or decrease release of acetylcholine, depending on the dose of nicotine taken. Nicotine stimulates the release in the brain of both DA and NE. Nicotine also binds directly to the brain's acetylcholine neuroreceptors. Animals will self-administer nicotine as they self-administer other abused drugs, but nicotine is far less reinforcing than amphetamine, the model synthetic stimulant.

Even though nicotine does not produce the intoxication and impairment that are common for addicting drugs such as alcohol, coke, speed, and herooin, this chemical affects the same brain mechanisms of dependence that are involved in the addiction to alcohol and other drugs. It's been proven in study after study, and published in respected peer reviewed medical and scientific journals. Even the DSM-V recognizes nicotine addiction as a condition.

rant over, just hate reading such a silly thing like nicotine isn't an addictive substance, in a forum that is called the library here, that no one can even respond too! New members are going to look at that post and put their trust into it.

 

[No Nic Chick]

Its going to take a while to read through these. Thanks for all the information though.

 

[Talyon]

I'll keep this simple and short, IMHO.........

1. Fact, cigarettes have over 7000 Chemicals not 4000. 90 some odd are carcinogens.
2. If your an Adult u have my blessings to Vape. Smoker or non. I have no Right to take away your Choice.
3. I don't recommend Vapeing to anyone, if they enquire I opine on it. I help in any way I can, no I don't ask for ID but am pretty sure those I have converted are at least 45, lol.
4. There's lots Bad in this ole goofy world, Vapeing is Not one of them.

Ok that's me, all is sorted now. Time to Rock my Vape.

 

[coalyard]

Yes, in the first post I put up in this thread I tried to be very clear that IMO, no matter what the reason for vaping, we need to stick together to keep it accessible for all adults who wish to partake. As far as the weight loss, it is not just the flavors, but the activity of vaping, the whole hand mouth thing that also helps. It is something you can do over long periods of time here and there to keep from grabbing a potato chip. Additionally, for me as a no nic vaper, strict regulation can feel even more violating because I am not even consuming nicotine....it being the battle cry that supposedly makes e cigs "tobacco products". I am with anyone willing to stand up to maintain a freedom that is seemingly much less harmful than many other things accessible to the public (alcohol, caffeine, cigarettes, snuf, and another substance being legalized in various states).

Using vaping as a weight loss tool is really great, and a new one on me. Bravo! One of my worries is that along with e-liquid, they will begin to tax and or restrict the sale of devices for use. THAT is a problem for all of us. If they restrict juice, it is an easy work around, especially with no nicotine; just make your own with common ingredients that are not exclusive to vaping.

I have said in other places on this forum that the e-cigarette issue is only a small part of government encroachment on your personal liberty, but it is one we are all effected by here at ECF. My concern is it doesn't just end with e-cigs. Adults should be able to do what they please in a free society, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else up to a point. We are not a collective, which is where a lot of these people who want to ban or restrict e-cigarettes want to take us. I, for one, am not willing to go there, and I will resist their efforts to the best of my ability. Unfortunately, we are well on the way. We need to stand as a community with one voice to resist their efforts. We do have some differences among us as we have seen in this thread, but we do have much more in common.

Get involved, write letters, advocate when you can, educate yourself. It doesn't have to be a full time job, but throughout the day, we all have opportunities to do something. Recognize those opportunities and do something!