New member with a few health questions/concerns

[pseudobulb]

Hi all,

I'm a week into this vaping thing. I haven't completely cut out regular cigarettes just yet, but I'm confident I can now. I have a few question/concerns that I wish I could post in the health section, but no-can-do. I'll try and lay them out quickly, and hopefully get some good responses from you guys here:

-Propylene Glycol - I've read through many threads and studies regarding PG. I understand that it is considered relatively safe, but I am not convinced it is the way we use it.

I work in a music theater. We pump quite a bit of this stuff into the air, and have been doing so for roughly 27 years. Take a guess at what the old, uncleaned equipment looks like. It might even be nastier than you can imagine. This leads me to my first few questions:

1. Does it linger forever in my lungs? Aside from what we cough up, our lungs don't drain. Can our bodies in anyway metabolize this stuff? I know cigarette tar can build up in our lungs and weigh down the cilia, but what about PG? Judging by what I see in stage systems, I can't imagine the cilia are much better off with PG.

I've read through studies where PG was introduced into the atmosphere with lab animals for extended periods. The animals were fine, but the concentrations they received were far lower than what we experience.

2. Another concern of mine deals the antibacterial/germicidal properties of PG. Perhaps it could be beneficial to use it for a short time, but what about the natural flora in my lungs? is it being compromised/destroyed?

3. Lastly, at what temperature will PG and VG become toxic? Is there a chance that a vaporizer could malfunction, and overheat the element enough to devastatingly poison somebody.

Some of the PG questions apply to VG as well. Substitute where necessary.

Thanks in advance to anyone that cares to answer. Hopefully I get some good feedback here.

 

[hairball]

Let me ask you ....How do you feel physically? Have you noticed any breathing problems? Any weird health issues you can't explain with common sense?

Worrying about the pg/vg isn't something that ever crosses my mind because, even at 6V, my mods don't get it hot enough to hit toxic level if there even is a toxic level. I would worry more about the flavorings.

I will tell you this much, there is a study showing that vaping is safer than the patch and nic gum due to no carcinogens.

 

[Jixchel]

There is a big difference between pharmacy grade and industrial grade pg. there are studies that will show it is fine others that say it is dangerous, with all studies you have to look at who paid for the study and if the study is really an unbiased one.

 

[markfm]

Look in the health and safety forum area. Lots of info there, including links to studies on pg/vg exposure.

Pv temps are well below the point where you get pg/vg breakdown into noxious substances.

 

[pseudobulb]

hairball:

I've already decided for myself that this is the best/safest way to go. I'm aware of the possible issues with flavorings. As I understand it, nobody knows what exactly those issues could potentially be.... I wish they were regulated...

I'm not too concerned about toxicity from overheating PG and VG. I just read that VG in particular can become highly toxic at a certain temperature. I was wondering what the threshold was.

I feel OK right now btw. Ask me that question again in about 20 years if vaping hasn't killed us by then

Jixchel:

The difference between pharmaceutical and industrial PG is purity. It's nice that other possible contaminants are removed from the stuff we inhale, but the base composition is the same. Run a nebulizer in a small container for a few years. I guarantee it will build up just the same.

You guys have to wonder where it goes. I've sifted through tons of data, and have not found anything explaining this. We are not born with natural filters for this stuff. Again, I share the opinion that it is a safer alternative to cigarettes, but how much safer? If you saw what I see everyday at my theater, you'd probably be a bit more curious as well. Before I ever heard about PVs, I never considered smoking a haze machine to be a good idea.

markfm:

The Health and Safety forum is a great resource. I wish I could post there too. That's where I gathered a large part of what I already know, but it still has not answered my questions to my satisfaction; not that I've seen anyway.

 

[TravTech]

LOL I used to have my own DJ business. I'd be playing in a smoke filled bar with clouds of cigarette smoke pretty much everywhere but on stage. As soon as I'd hit a little toot on the old fog machine to enchance the light show, some people (usually older types) would start with the fake coughs, choking, and complaining.

All I could do was just facepalm and shake my head.

 

[pseudobulb]

Haha, I'm familiar with the fake coughs. Singers and actors like to complain too.

 

[morri]

I feel OK right now btw. Ask me that question again in about 20 years if vaping hasn't killed us by then

We are all going on what is known at this point and agreed, everything is not known. I do know personally I feel much better about vaping than I did smoking. Smoking, as we all know, has been proven to kill you. Vaping has no such problem.............to date. Of course the safest course of action is to stop doing everything, smoking, vaping, etc. If you can do that, you can do more than I can.

 

[pseudobulb]

I suspect (hope) I will soon experience the benefits of vaping as well. It's too early to tell just yet. I've only been at this for a week, and still smoke 2-3 cigarettes per day. As soon as I run out of cigarettes, I have no intentions of buying anymore. I'm fairly certain I can make that transition. I am weak though, I suppose. Stopping everything would be a challenge for me too. I still crave cigarettes, and even chain vaping doesn't help. I did, however get some WTA juice yesterday, and without a doubt, it works. Now I'm wondering just how bad WTA is for me...

 

[yanivriz]

Hi all,

I'm a week into this vaping thing. I haven't completely cut out regular cigarettes just yet, but I'm confident I can now. I have a few question/concerns that I wish I could post in the health section, but no-can-do. I'll try and lay them out quickly, and hopefully get some good responses from you guys here:

-Propylene Glycol - I've read through many threads and studies regarding PG. I understand that it is considered relatively safe, but I am not convinced it is the way we use it.

I work in a music theater. We pump quite a bit of this stuff into the air, and have been doing so for roughly 27 years. Take a guess at what the old, uncleaned equipment looks like. It might even be nastier than you can imagine. This leads me to my first few questions:

1. Does it linger forever in my lungs? Aside from what we cough up, our lungs don't drain. Can our bodies in anyway metabolize this stuff? I know cigarette tar can build up in our lungs and weigh down the cilia, but what about PG? Judging by what I see in stage systems, I can't imagine the cilia are much better off with PG.

I've read through studies where PG was introduced into the atmosphere with lab animals for extended periods. The animals were fine, but the concentrations they received were far lower than what we experience.

2. Another concern of mine deals the antibacterial/germicidal properties of PG. Perhaps it could be beneficial to use it for a short time, but what about the natural flora in my lungs? is it being compromised/destroyed?

3. Lastly, at what temperature will PG and VG become toxic? Is there a chance that a vaporizer could malfunction, and overheat the element enough to devastatingly poison somebody.

Some of the PG questions apply to VG as well. Substitute where necessary.

Thanks in advance to anyone that cares to answer. Hopefully I get some good feedback here.

good question here.

1-PG is absorbed in the alveoli, and wont build up in your lungs, thus it is not similar to tar.
.
PG is expelled from the body with in 2 days after inhaling it..
Chronic high level of PG in your blood, may cause anemia, but it happens only at excessive dosages, not probable from vaping alone..

Inhaled PG that didn't reach your lungs, thus "stuck" on your bronchioles, will be expelled via phlegm.
So in the overall it doesn't build up in your lungs, and doesn't destroy cilia structure.

PG is used as an additive to anesthetic gas, like sevocris (Sevoflurane).


2-the effects of PG on the natural flora are unknown.
In the worst case-it is still better than cigarettes to your flora, and I cant think of reason on how it may have any serious effect.
In reality, if it did affect the flora, it would be a matter of days for symptoms to develop, and since non of those actually occur in current long term vapors, you could logically conclude that it doesn't have little, if any, effect at all..

3-PG needs several hundreds of degrees in order to burn. Those temperatures are not to be found on your PV, as long as they aren't faulty.
If it will happen, you will sense the burned harsh taste, which will give you a warning sign, thus you can be reassured about that from damaging you.

 

[morri]

Well sorry to say the jury is still out that one as well. The main thing, they say is nicotine isn't the real problem, it's all the other junk. I do know that I was smoking near 2 packs a day and I don't smoke anymore. I had chronic breathing problems that I no longer have. I haven't had bronchitis in several months and I used to get it almost twice a month. I haven't felt this good in many many years. I did buy another pack of cigarettes after I started vaping and most of the pack is still sitting on my desk. Every once in a while I will pick one up and take a puff and go whew that is so nasty and put it out. At some high stress points you may need a cigarette. Try not to put stress on yourself. I think it's important (as far as me anyway) not to put stress on yourself because that just makes quitting harder. Here is an idea for you, though you may have already heard it. I always smoked lights, so when I started vaping, I got the 11mg nicotine. I was always "hungry" for a cigarette. After someone on the forums suggested it, I upped my nicotine. I am using 24mg now and do not have the cravings. That might help. I don't have a problem with the WTA and have considered it myself. I will probably try it or even the SNUS if I get the cravings again. I can't believe it is as bad for you as cigarettes. The main thing is...... I never want to smoke cigarettes again.

I sincerely hope some of this helps you. I know how hard it can be at first.

Happy Vaping
Morri

 

[OnnaB]

I have some of the same questions. After vaping in my car awhile, the shellac on the windows was harder to remove than the tar from analogs! Of course, these haven't been out long enough to get definitive answers from any studies that may be under way. I DO feel that my analogs caused more damage than my PV will. I suppose only time will tell.
I have not put the analogs down yet because I haven't found a liquid that I like enough to vape all day. Well, I HAVE...but at 36mg, it way too strong, and lower mg doesn't seem to kill my analog craving completely. I have been able to cut back quite a bit, which is a plus at this point. Living in GA, we pay $35 p/carton (Marl. Lgt. Special Blend)...not near as bad as some.
My main goals, for now, are to cut back on analogs, and get that STINK out of my car and clothes (No analogs in the house though).
I hope we all get the answers we are looking for, but so far...the long-time vapers swear they feel much better and breathe better. I like testimonials MUCH better than studies that can be swayed by money....

 

[pseudobulb]

yanivriz:

Thank you very much for your response. I couldn't have hoped for better answers than yours. These are things we should all be aware of.

morri:

I smoked lights too; 1 PAD for almost 20 years. My first juice order consisted of samples from 16mg-24mg. They were all too strong, and made me feel awful. 12mg is just about right for me. I don't want to become accustomed to anything higher. My goal is to eventually move to 0mg, and someday quit vaping. Using anything higher than 12mg would be counterproductive.

 

[pseudobulb]

OnnaB:

In my absolutely unprofessional opinion, I recommend that you try WTA juice, but not as an all day vape. This stuff really calms the cravings. I smoked the same cigarettes as you (at the same price). 12mg WTA juice is all I need (I think).

I also appreciate reading all of the positive testimonials, but it does concern me some when I read the negatives, like the large "shortness of breath" thread.

 

[Smokalo]

I wouldn't jump to give any medical advice but if you get quality liquid, there should be no problems. Basically, E-liquid is a mixture of Propylene Glycol, Vegatable Glycerine, or both, as well as flavor, a thinner (alcohol or water), and nicotine. Theoretically, it's perfectly fine to vape although you should always opt for a reputable manufacturer, preferably if the liquid is made in America, such as Altsmoke's. Also, as yanivriz pointed out, PG may cause phlegm to build up in your throat, so if that bothers you, you can always opt for pure VG liquid although many people say PG has a stronger flavor.

 

[OnnaB]

WTA=Whole Tobacco Alkaloids? Or is it a juice name? Where would I buy that? Thanks, BTW...lol.

 

[DedTV]

-Propylene Glycol - I've read through many threads and studies regarding PG. I understand that it is considered relatively safe, but I am not convinced it is the way we use it.

PG is used by medical devices in roughly the same way we use it to carry inhalant medications and has been for a long time.
VG (Glycerol) has also been thoroughly tested as an inhalant and is generally recognized as safe when vaporized and inhaled.

I work in a music theater. We pump quite a bit of this stuff into the air, and have been doing so for roughly 27 years. Take a guess at what the old, uncleaned equipment looks like. It might even be nastier than you can imagine.

Fog juice usually also contains mineral oil. That's the majority of the gunk you see build up on and around fog machines. E-Juice normally doesn't contain oils.

The rest, I dunno. But the only real risk is what's contained in the flavorings. Very little of that has been tested for safety when vaporized and inhaled and there are some flavorings used in Ecig juices that are known to be toxic (most notably Diacetyl). But they are used in such minute amounts that they're still recognized as being generally safe to use in the quantities we expose ourselves to.

 

[pseudobulb]

Smokalo:

I'm still experimenting on PG and VG ratios. It will probably take me some time (and money ) to figure out what works best for me.

OnnaB:

I was referring to Whole Tobacco Alkaloids. I got mine from Aromaejuice. Vapelicious also sells it, but their website is down for now.

DedTV:

You are correct, some haze fluid does contain mineral oil. We have used several different kinds in my theater, so that is certainly a factor. Different machines require different bases. The main machines we use pump out PG. The only ingredients listed on its MSDS are PG and water.

Thanks for mentioning Diacetyl. I haven't heard about this before. I'm going to have to research it some, and maybe buy only Diacetyl free juices.

 

[rolygate]

Some experiments on lab rats had them living in a thick fog of vapor for months. This is certainly a higher concentration than vapers are likely to receive. There were no significant effects.

When PG was used in hospital clinical trials as an aerosol for air treatment of wards for periods of several years, before building AC systems were used, it resulted in a reduction of contagious diseases by 95%, including those caused by a virus. This is no longer required since the air in large buildings is pre-treated with PG now, used as the conditioner in the air conditioning systems. Before PG was used there was a risk of things like Legionnaire's Disease, which is still a risk if the AC system is not properly maintained. The PG works as a bactericide, virucide and antifreeze (it's not 'antifreeze' as such, it's simply the ideal material for the job: cheap to make in industrial grade, very low freezing point, bactericidal and virucidal). VG is bacteriostatic, not bactericidal, meaning it won't kill bacteria but it doesn't allow growth.

People who experience breathlessness need to trial different brands, and especially those using only pharma-grade materials and those with minimum flavorings. If you use a brand that is produced in a pharma-grade lab, using pharma-grade materials, and with minimum and known-safe flavors, there is (in my experience) no risk of shortness of breath.

It's something I can tell you from experience, because I have ultra-sensitive lungs and have come across more than one brand that has issues for me. I have in the past been hospitalized for breathing problems (before vaping) and not as a result of smoking. After nearly three years vaping, and being very careful about the choices made, the pharma-grade VG with minimal flavorings I mainly use has no issues with regard to lung function.

If you want to economize, or vape every flavor in the book, then maybe there could be consequences for some people. It would not be realistic to expect otherwise. Vaping food grade materials with a long list of flavorings might not suit some people. There are choices to be made here as in everything; let's not blame others for the consequences of our choices.

It may as well be stated outright: some people are going to experience issues as a result of vaping some materials. They made their choice.

 

[chips]

I have been a heavy vaper for 2 years, I hardly put my e cig down, and always use pure PG e liquid. I have noticed absolutely no bad effects on my lungs or anything else. My health has only improved since I quit tobacco. I know that when ingested the body easily breaks down PG, but as you say, breathing it into the lungs is a different matter. However in my own 2 year experience there has been no ill effect.