New working paper by Philips, Nissen and Rodu - Must read.

[Kent C]

I am not sure that is so. I am pretty sure that for many smokers, perhaps most, they have no real understanding of what not smoking would be like. Most people who try to quit under the pretense that after they get over the hump they will be perfectly happy about being a nonsmoker probably do not realize that, having quit, they will miss the benefits of smoking. That is why most of them start again. That is a fairly foundational bit of our analysis.

That might be so, IF they had such a bad memory of times before starting smoking OR if they started smoking say around 3 or 4 years old. And, implied, is the idea that they are aware of the benefits of smoking/nicotine, since they continue to smoke.

You basically confirm my quoted statement with "That is why most of them start again." - iow, they know the difference, and validate the difference between before and after smoking. In order to differentiate, one must have something with which to differentiate.

 

[Kent C]

One thing that caught my attention in the HELP committee hearings was Zeller talking about his extensive 'behavioral studies'. Without 'equating' in any way, Carl might have a good talk with Mitch about this subject and Mitch may learn something.

I commented how Zeller must not have understood how flavors could be a part of breaking habits:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ommittee-thursday-2-30pm-15.html#post13157995
post#141

 

[AndriaD]

I commented how Zeller must not have understood how flavors could be a part of breaking habits:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ommittee-thursday-2-30pm-15.html#post13157995
post#141

I simply cannot wrap my mind around how ostensibly-intelligent people could be so deliberately obtuse on this subject of flavors. I've been a vaper for 10 months now, and during 2014, only a smoker for about 3 months of the whole year -- and part of my continuing evolution as a vaper/non-smoker has been the growing distaste for tobacco flavor -- I used to think that "Virginia" was the be-all and end-all, that it was the only flavor worth vaping, the only flavor I'd ever want to vape -- and now I cannot stand it at all -- and I consider that HUGE PROGRESS! The taste of blueberry muffins so completely trumps the taste of tobacco... how can these ostensibly-intelligent people think that adults have no tastebuds?

Andria

 

[Kent C]

I simply cannot wrap my mind around how ostensibly-intelligent people could be so deliberately obtuse on this subject of flavors. I've been a vaper for 10 months now, and during 2014, only a smoker for about 3 months of the whole year -- and part of my continuing evolution as a vaper/non-smoker has been the growing distaste for tobacco flavor -- I used to think that "Virginia" was the be-all and end-all, that it was the only flavor worth vaping, the only flavor I'd ever want to vape -- and now I cannot stand it at all -- and I consider that HUGE PROGRESS! The taste of blueberry muffins so completely trumps the taste of tobacco... how can these ostensibly-intelligent people think that adults have no tastebuds?

Andria

For anyone who studies habit behaviors, this is near to self-evident. If one wants to distance oneself from a particular behavior, then distancing oneself from all perceptions involved in that behavior is a rather good starting point I understand the 'transitional phase' of wanting a similar replacement but at a certain point, that sometimes has to change to something not so similar. Smell (and taste) esp. is a percept that invokes the past/memory more than any other - as has been noted scientifically.

How smells stick to your memories: Your nose can be a pathfinder -- ScienceDaily

... so avoiding that particular tobacco smell can help in some cases.

 

[AndriaD]

For anyone who studies habit behaviors, this is near to self-evident. If one wants to distance oneself from a particular behavior, then distancing oneself from all perceptions involved in that behavior is a rather good starting point I understand the 'transitional phase' of wanting a similar replacement but at a certain point, that sometimes has to change to something not so similar. Smell (and taste) esp. is a percept that invokes the past/memory more than any other - as has been noted scientifically.

How smells stick to your memories: Your nose can be a pathfinder -- ScienceDaily

... so avoiding that particular tobacco smell can help in some cases.

Well, it wasn't a deliberate choice or anything, it just doesn't taste good to me anymore -- certainly never saw THAT coming. But these -- there's no other word for it -- IDIOTS who want to CONFINE vapers to the taste of tobacco are basically saying, you once chose cigarettes, so now THAT'S ALL YOU CAN HAVE! It's like they want to MAKE US keep to that particular taste, we're not allowed to like anything else, not allowed to grow and change and leave our old habit behind -- they want to deliberately sabotage those who're more than ready to leave that taste behind. What utter ROT! What utter insanity! What utter STUPIDITY! These IDIOTS profess to HATE tobacco... but they want to inflict it on those who'd really like to leave it behind!

And since these are lawmakers... HOW DID SUCH STUPID, PETTY, EVIL, MALICIOUS PEOPLE GET ELECTED?!?!?!

Andria

 

[DrMA]

That's why they run for office in the first place, Andria. And also why they get elected. An honest, reasonably intelligent person doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell in politics.

 

[choochoogranny]

Because their way of thinking things thru is antithetical to any business but government?

 

[DC2]

And also why they get elected. An honest, reasonably intelligent person doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell in politics.

I would argue that many are quite intelligent, and that being so probably helps rather than hinders.

As for honesty, that's a hard word for me to digest.
I would switch your quoted statement to use the word "self-respecting" instead.

A person can be hypocritical, make backdoor deals that are against their principles, and still find a way to be "honest" about it.
But a self-respecting person can not do that and still live with their conscious.

So I guess I would say that no "self-respecting" person has a snowball's chance in hell in politics.
And even then, I guess it depends on what one respects in oneself.

Gordon Gecko, for instance, could do all the things needed to be a successful politician and still respect himself.

 

[Kent C]

I would argue that many are quite intelligent, and that being so probably helps rather than hinders.

As for honesty, that's a hard word for me to digest.
I would switch your quoted statement to use the word "self-respecting" instead.

A person can be hypocritical, make backdoor deals that are against their principles, and still find a way to be "honest" about it.
But a self-respecting person can not do that and still live with their conscious.

So I guess I would say that no "self-respecting" person has a snowball's chance in hell in politics.
And even then, I guess it depends on what one respects in oneself.

Gordon Gecko, for instance, could do all the things needed to be a successful politician and still respect himself.

So could the idiot that played him. But not so much from the guy Gecko was modeled after - Michael Milken - who, btw, never said 'Greed is good' - although that is not the perception of a certain faction of society. Were it not for Milken, it could be argued (and has) that we would have never seen cable or CNN and numerous other businesses related to junk bonds....(in the time frame in which they occurred - perhaps much later)...

 

[carlvphillips]

In case anyone is still following this thread, I wanted to note that I am in the process of updating the paper based on these comments and others. I have added an acknowledgment thanking the participants in this discussion. The new version will appear at the working paper page on EP-ology as soon as my coauthors make any changes to the changes they want.

In particular, I have:

-Added a recognition of the significance of the "craving" concept in several places.
-Tried to clarify that the notion of smoking as an economically rational behavior was not new in this particular work, though it may have presented it more completely than I have previously.
-Noted that the title is probably not right -- will try to work out a new one with my coauthors.
-Added a bit more language about latent preferences.

 

[Vatigu]

Yep that explains it... I guess I'm more in tune with my preferences than most. I knew I did not want to quit. I also knew I wanted to want to quit because tomorrow me was going to hate today me so I guess I was already category 4. But I happened upon ecigs in an attempt to save money and found them an acceptable alternative to the entire habit.