Nicotine calculation and Juice mixer

[toekuttr]

OK, I was a little confused when you wrote this Mihai, and this is why I questioned whether we were reading the same Ruyan report:

According to this, if you use 24mg/ml e-liquid, you will inhale in 10 drags 2.4 mg of nicotine, which is about what you get from a normal cigarette.

What I read on the report was this from Ruyan:

then, assuming the nicotine was equally concentrated across all
puffs, and assuming all breaths are lung inhalations, 1.5 mg of liquid went into the
average puff, providing an estimated 1.5 * 16ug nicotine per puff = 24 micrograms of
nicotine,. Fifteen puffs would thus supply 360 ug or 0.36 mg of nicotine, that is one fifth
of the amount from one cigarette. And 15 shallow puffs would only supply 0.12 mg of
nicotine. Volume and weight calculations thus give differing values. Pharmacokinetic
testing will show whether smokers obtain sufficient nicotine from the e-cigarette.

These are the values I was referring to on pg 10 of that report which are much lower than the example you stated. Of course these values are based on 16 mg/ml fluid so are fractionally lower than what someone using 24 mg/ml fluid. These tests indicate that smoking an e-cig would take 5x the numbers of full and deep puffs to replicate an actual tobacco cigarette. However it does appear that this might be closer to what an ultra-light smoker (maybe also using secondary filters) is accustomed to.

Thats why I think a much higher nic content is desirable for many of the heavier smokers trying to switch over e-smoking. I guess I fall into that category too, as I generally consume about 30 RYO FF smokes in a day (....that is I did before starting using Snus to cut back). I just never felt much nicotine when e-smoking and it looks it's because theres not much to be had in the available juices.

 

[Mihai]

no. they just lie.

I will try again to break it down

1 cart = 1.3 ml
1 cart = 13 cig

ergo

1 cig = 0.1 ml

if

1 cig 10 puffs or 1cig 15 puffs

assuming

1cig gives you 2.4 mg (which is a lot, you get less I'm sure but let's go with that)

so

nic per puff in smoke 0.24 mg or @ 15 puffs 0.16 mg

for vapors:
0.1ml 10 puffs or 0.1ml 15 puffs

assuming strong e-liq 0.1ml has 2.4 mg nic

so

nic per puff in vapor 0.24 or @15 puffs 0.16 mg


Where ruyan lies:

liquid per puff 1.5 mg = 0.0015 ml

in reality

liquid per puff
0.1ml / 10 = 0.01 ml -> 6.7 times more

0.1ml/15 = 0.007 ml -> 4.4 times more

If what ruyan said was right

e-pen cart would equal 1.3 ml / 0.0015 ml = 867 puffs = 4+ packs

To resume it:
they say 1 puff is just 1.5 mg of liquid. this is underestimated by 7 times (or 4.4 times in the best case scenario)
If they were right one e-pen cart will give you the same number of puffs as more than 4 packs of cigarettes.

if the puff is deep or shallow it doesn't matter because the same can be said about a puff from a cigarette. If you take 10 similar puffs from a cigarette or from a e-cigarette there is no difference. There is the same amount of nicotine in every puff. If you don't exhale for, say, 10 sec you can assume the absorbtion rate will be 100% in both cases. If you don't inhale you can assume the absorbtion rate is say 10% in _both_ cases.

The just lie or the missed a 0 when they transformed from mg to ml. All their calculations are wrong by a factor of 10.

 

[Oliver]

I don't mind at all. I actually wish to see as much things related to this going around freely.
Before registering in this forum I wanted to make a blog/forum only about diy ecigs, but as I haven't seen here any censorship yet about this subject I see no point doing it anymore.
It's sad that the other good forums (de, nl, au) don't allow discussion about this stuff... what's the point in censoring, for example, a link to bickford's site, what do they think is in brand carts, holy water??

Yup, there's no censorship here, although perhaps I should put a disclaimer here about self-responsibility and attempting these operations at one's own risk etc etc?

Why on earth do the other forums censor this info? It is a perfectly legitimate topic of interest for e-smokers, surely?

In fact, I thought it may be an idea to have a diy-liquids sub-forum under tips and tricks. What do you think?

It's great to have you on board Mihai, it's people like you that make this forum such a superb resource.

Take care,

SJ

 

[Mihai]

Thanks SmokeyJoe

excellent disclaimer!

Yes, I belive that we could be actually safer if we talk about these - we have the chance to warn people about the dangers of what they are doing. Exactly because the bottles and carts of e-liq look so ordinary, with no warnings, people might think they are harmless and might try to cook themselves without any precautions.
We can also have the chance of learning from other's mistakes

 

[Oliver]

Thanks SmokeyJoe

excellent disclaimer!

Yes, I belive that we could be actually safer if we talk about these - we have the chance to warn people about the dangers of what they are doing. Exactly because the bottles and carts of e-liq look so ordinary, with no warnings, people might think they are harmless and might try to cook themselves without any precautions.
We can also have the chance of learning from other's mistakes

Thanks Mihai,

I remember being absolutely horrified sitting in front of my PC reading Wikipedia on nicotine with my little bottle of e-liquid beside me, suddenly
realizing there was enough to kill me four times over!

To think that in the UK you can only buy paracetamol in packets of 16 because of the suicidal-overdose potential!!

I hope the new subforum is a good idea too, keep the diy threads in one place with the disclaimer at the top.

Again, I am really surprised that other forums ban the discussion of home-made e-liquids.

If you have anything that you think should be added to the disclaimer, please let me know.

Great to have you on board.

 

[toekuttr]

Mihai claims:

1cig gives you 2.4 mg (which is a lot, you get less I'm sure but let's go with that)

2.4 mg per smoke eh? Wow! Thats double what Newports deliver (1.1 mg), jeez, I'd think I'd be dead by now taking dozens of hits at a sitting. Hmm, now thats a headscratcher.....I wonder why they initially claimed 1/2 per e-cig, then revised it to 1/5 and the whole time it appears it actually double! Thanks again for the info Mihai.

 

[toekuttr]

BTW, great idea separating this thread admin, I think this is a very interesting topic.

 

[jigtg]

- I think you gain nothing by mixing the filtered juice with propylene and then evaporate water.

You gain safety.

 

[TropicalBob]

You want to know how much nicotine is in each puff, read the Health New Zealand lab tests by Dr. Murray Laugesen. One-half to one-fifth of that in a regular cigarette, take your choice. Not the same as a real cig at all. In my eight months of personal use of 24mg liquid in every flavor ... the nicotine hit is not even close. I understand Toekutrr's frustration. I cannot depend on e-smoking for nicotine, so use snus and Stonewall at all times, in addition to e-smoking. And, yes, I inhale the vapor.

 

[TropicalBob]

Sorry not to have back-read the thread. We've been around this bush. You don't believe the report; I believe the report. Ok.

But from my own experience, I should be flat on the floor with nicotine overdose since I am almost never without an e-cig. I'm not flat, however. In fact, the opposite. I'm jittery for nicotine most of the time. If e-smoking equalled cigarette smoking, I think my urges would be gone. Maybe not, though, since all ex-smokers miss other things about cigarette smoking.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

ive vaped high strength all day,everyday,constantly for 5 months...ive never had a nicotine overdose...

i dont understand how people have OD'd using ecigs,unless they were light hot smokers,or are particularly susceptible to the effects of nicotine...i guess everyones different...but it just keeps me on an even keel...

theres no way an ecig puff contains as much nicotine as a puff of a cigarette-no way.

so i dont care what figures anyone comes up with saying its equal to a real cigarette...quite apart from Dr.Laugesens report,my own experience tells me that thats simply not the way it is in reality.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

I'm more concerned with PG than nicotine. I'm also an incessant user and I really don't think my intake of or tolerance to nicotine has increased. I do, however, have a forehead like a dry riverbed and a flaky nose...

 

[jigtg]

Heres my theory: if you first vape e-cigs for a couple of days so that your tolerance level stabilizes and then smoke a real cig and it gets you "high", then there is less nic in e-cigs than in real cigarette. If no "high", you get same amount of nic. My understanding on nic "high" is that it is caused by nic level rapidly increasing in blood(over your current tolerance level). Of course, for this to be valid, it would have to be shown that nic alone causes this "high".

 

[TropicalBob]

After e-smoking for 8 months now, along with using snus and Stonewall and my other stuff, I've begun to consider the truth of a post long ago that said it's the carbon monoxide whack in the head that we miss. Maybe that's what happens when we get that rush of relaxation/satisfaction from tobacco cigarettes, something missing with e-smoking. Just a thought. I did think it was very insightful when I first read it.

I mean, come on, I e-smoke 24mg stuff almost non-stop, with a strong snus in my mouth at all times, and after 13+ months off regular cigs, I still want one multiple times every day. Why?

 

[Kate]

I think you might be right about the carbon monoxide. There's also carbon dioxide as far as I know. Whatever causes it, the blood flow to the brain has less oxygen and that gives a bit of a hit. Who knows what sort of stuff affects us from cigs, they put so many things in them, a lot of them are to keep us addicted and coming back for more. I wouldn't be surprised if it's something other than nicotine you're missing TBob. You may not even notice anything unpleasant if you reduce your intake of nic. You'll have to try rigging up a petrol generator in an enclosed space instead to see if carbon monoxide fumes give you the desired hit, lol. Just joking, don't do that, as I'm sure you know, it could be fatal.

I find with the ecig that I get a nice mild nicotine supply even with a low dose liquid. I do not really want the palpitations or heavy tingling of a high dose, just a nice, low, steady buzz.

There is a lot of conflicting information on how much nic we're absorbing with esmoking. I'm not sure it's as low as some of us think and I also don't think it's as necessary for feelings of well being. It's not massively important to get a high dose as far as I can tell, after a certain threshold it doesn't do much anyway until you get overdose symptoms.

Maybe at some point we'll have a thread that pulls together the different opinions on esmoking and nic dosage and we can each draw our conclusions based on having all information in one place.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

it's the carbon monoxide whack in the head that we miss.

Yes, but

Nothing is poxier
Than brain anoxia

Emp

 

[Kate]

You're a poet
and you don't knowit

 

[ned Zeppelin]

Yes, but

Nothing is poxier
Than brain anoxia

Emp

Emp if TB wants a whack in the head tell him to order some of pillboxes 36

 

[Kate]

What does that Wikid extra high actually physically feel like Ned?

 

[ned Zeppelin]

What does that Wikid extra high actually physically feel like Ned?

Kate I did a little write-up yesterday or the day before marked pillbox 38 totally wicked 36MG have a read of that which will give you some idea of how I feel regarding using this