Nicotine no more harmful than caffeine

[Baditude]

His statement threw me so far off I wouldn’t know where to start. If you are an alcoholic there is no trade off. It is a disease. Whereas smoking tobacco causes disease.

I can leave my vape at home but if I start drinking at home it will following me out the door and through the night.

He says that he is a recovered alcoholic and recovered drug user. So he is opposed to using anything that could be considered an addiction (ie nicotine). I've simply explained that I agree that nicotine is addictive, but as the title of this thread says, that addiction to nicotine is no more harmful than caffeine. He apparently doesn't understand the concept of "harm reduction" e-cigarette useage to help smokers to quit cigarettes. He cites his faith in God as his path to be drug free. I have no issues with that philosophy if it worked for HIM, but that pathway is not always the ONLY way for everyone else.

 

[TheTinMan]

I just did my best to support what you are trying to do and not debate him.

In my opinion his thinking is flawed.

 

[Eskie]

He says that he is a recovered alcoholic and recovered drug user. So he is opposed to using anything that could be considered an addiction (ie nicotine). I've simply explained that I agree that nicotine is addictive, but as the title of this thread says, that addiction to nicotine is no more harmful than caffeine. He apparently doesn't understand the concept of "harm reduction" e-cigarette useage to help smokers to quit cigarettes. He cites his faith in God as his path to be drug free. I have no issues with that philosophy if it worked for HIM, but that pathway is not always the ONLY way for everyone else.

That can be a real problem for some to overcome, especially those recovering in 12 step programs. Those programs are not supposed to oppose medical treatments of addiction yet will routinely call out an opiate addict who turns to medically supervised methadone or other medications to suppress the need to abuse the drug. Sane fir alcohol where there are a few medications that can a do be useful. It's the "you're not clean if you still take anything" opinion that's really not supposed to exist in those self help groups that end up causing problems for people seeking medical treatment of their illness, which substance abuse is, and this sense of not being strong enough or kit having enough faith to get through without that. Unfortunately it also falls under the same umbrella of a 12 step group will always work if you work at it. If you fail it's not the approach that failed it's you. That's a pretty sad attitude as it condemns those seeking to use all available resources to never meeting their standard of "clean and sober".

Substance abuse is a major issue in this, and other, countries. Every effort should be made to help folks by whatever works for them without imposing some subjective and arbitrary definition of their stage of illness and to discourage anyone from using any means available to recover. Sadly there's no true rational conversation you can have with them on this subject as their view is so deeply ingrained they can't see the forest, at times not even the trees.

On a personal note I worry that folks holding on do tight to those fixed ideas may in fact be those at greatest risk for relapse as they cannot simply accept where they are in their struggle and that no one, including themselves are perfect. I hope your friend can maintain their sobriety and my only advice to you would be to understand his world view and your logical conversations with him are not helpful, really fir either of you. You should not feel bad about what you're doing, and you're not going to convince him otherwise regardless of even letter perfect evidence. It's almost a theological difference, not an intellectual one.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Sounds to me like he is so close to or so fearful of relapse that he is unable to see any thing except his problem and his solution.
I would support you, Baditude, but I kind of see him as a very fragile kind of person. I wouldn't do anything that may set the old boy back. And, his opinion is worth just what you paid to get it, $0.00 nothing more. And that's twice what my opinion is worth.

He says that he is a recovered alcoholic and recovered drug user. So he is opposed to using anything that could be considered an addiction (ie nicotine). I've simply explained that I agree that nicotine is addictive, but as the title of this thread says, that addiction to nicotine is no more harmful than caffeine. He apparently doesn't understand the concept of "harm reduction" e-cigarette useage to help smokers to quit cigarettes. He cites his faith in God as his path to be drug free. I have no issues with that philosophy if it worked for HIM, but that pathway is not always the ONLY way for everyone else.

 

[Baditude]

Sounds to me like he is so close to or so fearful of relapse that he is unable to see any thing except his problem and his solution.
I would support you, Baditude, but I kind of see him as a very fragile kind of person. I wouldn't do anything that may set the old boy back. And, his opinion is worth just what you paid to get it, $0.00 nothing more. And that's twice what my opinion is worth.

You are probably correct, but he doesn't smoke. He is just against vaping. Anybody. He figures he quit without any crutches other than his faith, so why can't everyone else quit the same way?

I'm just tired of his negative attitude on my posts. I could always block him on FB but would rather not.

 

[CMD-Ky]

You are probably correct, but he doesn't smoke. He is just against vaping. Anybody. He figures he quit without any crutches other than his faith, so why can't everyone else?

He sounds like he is much more fearful of a relapse than either you or I. I'll take my "crutches" over his fears any day.

 

[mp25]

Just like the "evil weed" whose banning in the US has been recently lifted, new research is proving that health benefits can be achieved for certain medical conditions when using it. But that's a topic for a different forum.

The problem is that the same people promoting the health effects of marijuana are demonizing e-cigarettes.

 

[Rossum]

The problem is that the same people promoting the health effects of ......... are demonizing e-cigarettes.

And you would think that they, perhaps more than anyone else, would understand the concept of letting others live as and consume what they choose.

 

[ScottP]

Just like the "evil weed" whose banning in the US has been recently lifted,

Just for the sake of clarity, the Federal ban on MJ was NOT lifted. They ONLY lifted the ban on hemp, MJ's non-psychoactive cousin. By extension all of the products made from hemp are now also legal.

 

[Eskie]

I think you are allowed to say hemp here. I believe it's even been tried as wicking material. Or maybe throw rugs.

 

[ScottP]

I think you are allowed to say hemp here. I believe it's even been tried as wicking material. Or maybe throw rugs.

Thanks. Edited my post.

 

[ScottP]

You are probably correct, but he doesn't smoke. He is just against vaping. Anybody. He figures he quit without any crutches other than his faith, so why can't everyone else?

I'm just tired of his negative attitude on my posts. I could always block him on FB but would rather not.

Looks like someone is setting him straight.

 

[TheTinMan]

Looks like someone is setting him straight.

And then he bolted from the conversation.

 

[kross8]

IMHO,, sugar, high fructose corn syrup and the SAD diet are more harmful than nicotine. Nicotine 'chills my nerves'/allows me to tolerate more. In an era of kids shooting each other,, a little more chilling out is needed. I grew up in a time of easy access to guns/weapons and we never used them on each other. Boys had gun racks in their back truck windows... Pretty good sized knives on their belts and you would see fights breakout but never ever a knife from the belt,, ,that was a losers move.

 

[stols001]

I'm not gonna get on facebook sorry but your friend is a twit. First of all if you ever want to see MORE people in one room at once (well, not lately but afterward) smoking and chugging coffee in one place, go to an AA meeting.

Secondly, the Big book (AA bible pretty much) STATES: "We do not demonize alcohol, we recolonize that the majority of people don't have a problem with it, but WE do." Pretty much. There are plenty of recovered alcoholics that will serve alcohol in their homes (myself included) to guests, and also, will frequent places like bars WITH A LEGITIMATE reason. I don't hang out in one, but I will go in to retrieve a relapsing member, the Christmas party etc.

There are some older AA blowhards who seem to believe any and all potentially addictive substances should be banned, but the majority of members do not think like that anymore.

Buponorphine and Methadone are probably the trickiest. There are divided opinions on whether that is "sobriety" or not, to the point that there are specialized (NA I think) meetings for that issue. With that said, if you are having any sort of opiate surgery and your doc recommends them, the majority of folks DO NOT say they have relapsed, and often (for safety) will get a friend/family member/their sponsor to hold their meds, if needed.

ANY medication IF used as your doctor prescribes, is supposed to be thoroughly legit, and yes I'd probably say the "medical" stuff coming on the scene is probably the most dividing thing, even though it's pretty darn harmless IMHO it has one of the lowest addiction rates of all time. Etc.

Anna

I really HATE people who do not bother to read their AA literature, including the history books. Bill W once hatched a scheme to send acid to hundreds of AA members and head to be talked out of it by more saner members. AA is NOT a hotbed of sane THINKING until you read the Big Book which is EMINENTLY sane, only it was written conjointly by a TON of members, with sort of a POOL of sane thinking.

If you can't find me a quote in the big book stating ecigs are harmful, I'm NOT going to listen to you. It gets updated, also, so if it was THAT bad there would be a new AA story like "SCARED TO VAPE" or something.. Sheesh.

 

[Plumes.91]

Recently I was diagnosed with the big Type 2. I tend to geek out and read, read, read whenever my doctor says another old guy affliction is beginning.

Yeah, it's part age part mileage. Of course one of the things reccomended to halt is smoking. The carbon monoxide does all kinds of unfriendly things to happen to the organs over time. Well I checked off all those glucose issue causes like sweets, fatty foods, lack of excersize etc etc. Things got worse, not better.

I'm at the pre-Type 2 stage and since going on good behavior the numbers were getting worse. Still below the threshold most of the time, but insulin resistance seemed to be growing worse. What gives?

Nicotine. I looked up the side effects of nicotine and it seems that studies show a correlation between bouncing glucose and nicotine in many people like me. I behave all day, have good numbers all day but next morning at first check the number suggests one of two things.

I either went into a sugar coma during the night so my body ran up the amount to keep me alive (not likely) or...
My body is confused as to how much sugar to absorb. The tank sends out insulin to feed the cells requesting more. The cells don't recognize it's there and scream for more while resting.

Is nicotine a direct cause? Too soon to tell but it is a contributor. What is whacky is that often times smokers who quit (and didn't already have Type 2) develop Type 2 some 2 to 12 years after stopping. It seems depriving the body of nicotine can contribute to some developing Type 2 down the road.

None of the articles I read at the CDC, Web MD and several other sites mentioned how the person derived their nicotine. Being that vaping is still fairly new I figure they probably didn't take that into consideration.

Not trying to discount this whole 'nicotine is safe' thread. Just pointing out that it seems in some cases nicotine contributes to lack of glucose control issues.

Could this be the reason why I wake up never feeling rested?? Even after having tried everything I possibly can to combat this? I have been getting itchy limb syndrome & have been feeling faint at work the past few months as well. But when I go to the community health center, all they recommend is antidepressants and statins

 

[United States]

So what was the topic of this thread?

Not speaking to you Plumes. But remember nicotine is a stimulant. A calming stimulant.
Huh? Howz that work?

Too much of anything is just that. Too much. ie anything can be harmful if used "too much" including nicotine and caffiene.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Before I retired, I held a position in which I was, among other things, responsible for making decisions about the future of the children of addicted parents. One of the struggles that I had, early on, was whether a parent who was using buprenorphine (with or without naloxone) or methodone as part of medically assisted therapy was "clean". And then, going forward, would they provide a safe environment for the children. There were a lot of opinions on either side of that issue and the proponents for both sides were enthusiastic and vociferous (to be kind). I presided over some real donnybrooks on that issue. "Interesting times" (a Chinese curse not a blessing).

The alcoholics were, for my purposes at least, easier to deal with. I found that sponsors were willing to appear with the person, vouch for their meeting attendance (frequency and participation) as well as apparent continued sobriety.

I'm not gonna get on facebook sorry but your friend is a twit. First of all if you ever want to see MORE people in one room at once (well, not lately but afterward) smoking and chugging coffee in one place, go to an AA meeting.

Secondly, the Big book (AA bible pretty much) STATES: "We do not demonize alcohol, we recolonize that the majority of people don't have a problem with it, but WE do." Pretty much. There are plenty of recovered alcoholics that will serve alcohol in their homes (myself included) to guests, and also, will frequent places like bars WITH A LEGITIMATE reason. I don't hang out in one, but I will go in to retrieve a relapsing member, the Christmas party etc.

There are some older AA blowhards who seem to believe any and all potentially addictive substances should be banned, but the majority of members do not think like that anymore.

Buponorphine and Methadone are probably the trickiest. There are divided opinions on whether that is "sobriety" or not, to the point that there are specialized (NA I think) meetings for that issue. With that said, if you are having any sort of opiate surgery and your doc recommends them, the majority of folks DO NOT say they have relapsed, and often (for safety) will get a friend/family member/their sponsor to hold their meds, if needed.

ANY medication IF used as your doctor prescribes, is supposed to be thoroughly legit, and yes I'd probably say the "medical" stuff coming on the scene is probably the most dividing thing, even though it's pretty darn harmless IMHO it has one of the lowest addiction rates of all time. Etc.

Anna

I really HATE people who do not bother to read their AA literature, including the history books. Bill W once hatched a scheme to send acid to hundreds of AA members and head to be talked out of it by more saner members. AA is NOT a hotbed of sane THINKING until you read the Big Book which is EMINENTLY sane, only it was written conjointly by a TON of members, with sort of a POOL of sane thinking.

If you can't find me a quote in the big book stating ecigs are harmful, I'm NOT going to listen to you. It gets updated, also, so if it was THAT bad there would be a new AA story like "SCARED TO VAPE" or something.. Sheesh.

 

[Skeebo]

You may want to call Tom and make sure he's okay. He turned off notifications..... shortly after the shots and beer comment. Back in the late 80's we'd call people like him "pink cloud 12 steppers".

 

[vapdivrr]

I think you are allowed to say hemp here. I believe it's even been tried as wicking material. Or maybe throw rugs.

Yep, 4 to 5 years ago hemp was quite popular here as a wicking material and was actually very good. It took some prep , so when the ... cotton and rayon got popular, hemp kind of died out

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