The issue, I would think would be the Amp limit of the device
I mean SLR is commonly considered < 1.0 ohm.
so 0.9 at 24 watts, that's 5.16 amps... I believe that's beyond the limit of most regulated mods
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The issue, I would think would be the Amp limit of the device
I mean SLR is commonly considered < 1.0 ohm.
so 0.9 at 24 watts, that's 5.16 amps... I believe that's beyond the limit of most regulated mods
I can say I have spoken with Faceless the manufacturer of the iHybrid I use, and yes the iHy can handle the low ohms. As with anything in vaping tho slo or not, you have to know what you are doing.
From what Ive seen, alot of regulated pvs wont read anything lower than a 1.3 ohm. (I know that isnt the correct terminology, but if its too low the device wont fire)
Yeah but you keep using device maxiums in your calcs....or is 24 watts your target?
So for example, is .9 ohms at 4 amps OK? (that's 3.6 volts and 14.4 watts). ??? (I know it's not ...but making a point).
In other words...quit running ohms law calcs with device maxes and talk about how you really use the .9 coil. How many volts (or watts or amps) do you normally put to it? In real world use.
Another way to say it...
Come up with a SLR vaping chart...ignoring the device for the moment (although it's a factor).
Another interesting ?factoid? is that I think many VV devices are actually watt limited, not amp limited. So when they say it's a __ amp switch, it's probably a wattage limit. Power Dissipated. Guessing on this. E.G. The spec sheets say ___ amps @ ____ volts for components where it varies.
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Maybe, maybe not... I think many/all? Regulated mods would see 0.9 as a hard short anyway...
So even at 3.2 volts, it wont fire a SLR coil.
I use a mechanical... so I'd vape a 0.9 coil at 4.2 off the charger, and recharge at 3.7
So 19-15 watts
The chart would be simple... since the voltage is vixed... it's just Ohms law.
We'll just average out the voltage plateau at 3.8:
1.0 Ohms : 14.44 Watts
0.9 Ohms : 16.04 Watts
0.8 Ohms : 18.05 Watts
0.7 Ohms : 20.63 Watts
0.6 Ohms : 24.07 Watts
0.5 Ohms : 28.88 Watts
0.4 Ohms : 36.10 Watts
0.3 Ohms : 48.13 Watts
Haven't personally used anything lower than 0.3
No, I think it's Ohm limited... because I believe(may be wrong) that they read SLR coils as shorts
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See....
Some of it may be programmatic, or component specific. So it varies by device. Some devices can go to 24 watts. Like Rader said...he builds em. Regulated.
You would then need the vaping chart, since voltage isn't necessarily fixed. It is following battery voltage for a mech mod. But I'm trying to discuss other mods...
Some of it may be programmatic, or component specific. So it varies by device. Some devices can go to 24 watts. Like Rader said...he builds em. Regulated.
You would then need the vaping chart, since voltage isn't necessarily fixed. It is following battery voltage for a mech mod. But I'm trying to discuss other mods...
Amperage is what fries switches and the likes. Watts really don't play into the equation until you know the resistance of the actual attached device. Since high voltage, such as what most VV/VW devices can play around with, is a more efficient way of generating the same wattage with *lower* amperage, most switches are rated 5 amps or below (for regulated) and I *think* use device resistance to set a thresh hold... detecting too low a resistance as a short, which in effect means too high an amperage for most wires, solder and circuit boards used in such devices.
Amperage = Volts/Resistance
Watts = Volts x Amperage
Watts = (Volts x Volts)/Resistance
Volts = Square Root of (Watts x Resistance)
Amperage = Volts/Resistance
Watts = Volts x Amperage
Watts = (Volts x Volts)/Resistance
Volts = Square Root of (Watts x Resistance)
Not entirely correct. My Vamo will "read" sub-ohm resistance, it just won't fire it below 1.2 ohms. In fact I use it as a handy stabilizer for re-coiling my RDAs that can also tell me the resistance at the touch of a button. MUCH more convenient than using the probes on my DMM although I often use it as well.
I try to do my research before throwing money at such an obscure topic as mechanical mods and SLR devices. I started a thread in the APV section before I made my first purchase. I started it because I wanted to establish how many mechanical users ended up installing a "kick", which to me seemed to defeat most of the advantages of a purely mechanical mod. I had that question answered and at the same time learned quite a bit about SLR, why people might prefer it, and mech mods in general. You can see the thread here:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...who-honestly-prefers-vape-un-kicked-mech.html
Some conclusions I've made since I've been vaping low ohm and sub-ohm attachments on my first mechanical (a Sigelei #8):
Lower gauge wire, such as 28 gauge, allows for more wire for a given resistance target than higher gauge wire. This in turn permits the use of much thicker wicks (I use 3x3mm in my Smok RDA) and even dual coils with thick wicks. More wicks means more wicking which means more liquid exposed to the heating coil(s) and in turn means potentially much more vapor production. Of course increased airflow is also a factor in reaching optimum vapor conditions and this ultimately leads to a reduction in nicotine levels too. I too find I can only tolerate half the nicotine at SLR levels of vaping! I use 18mg in vivis and the like on my Vamo and only 9mg in my SLR devices.
Lower gauge wire, being thicker, also provides a larger contact area with the wick itself and again I believe this contributes to better vapor production than a much thinner wire (higher gauge) at the same resistance target. I won't pretend to fully understand the thermodynamic characteristics of the two wires but it seems obvious to me that they are quite different and I have discovered that I personally prefer the results provided by the thicker wire.
Lower nic levels mean less throat hit and (presumably) diluted liquid leading to diluted flavor are BOTH quite nicely offset by the significant increase in vapor production in a properly dialed in SLR device... with the added benefit of being able to exhale huge clouds of vapor, upon demand.
Dialing in the coils to find the "sweet spot" on a mech, 1.1 ohms on a 500 mesh/28 gauge kanthal setup on one of my AGA-T2s, means that any VERY strong hits from a freshly charged battery quickly roll off as the 4.2 edge of that charge is softened. It's then a perceptibly even vape, more or less, until the battery reaches about 3.6-3.8 volts (several hours) at which time I exchange it for another one and the old battery gets a turn on the charger. My 0.9 ohm Smok RDA is similar. In both examples I tried slight variations on wick-coil combinations for slightly lower or slightly higher resistance before I settled on these "sweet spots" for "flattest" vaping pleasure throughout the battery charge.
My (very slightly improved) mod never gets warm, beyond the body heat of my hand or heat transfer from the atty, even when I'm chain vaping.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...who-honestly-prefers-vape-un-kicked-mech.html
Some conclusions I've made since I've been vaping low ohm and sub-ohm attachments on my first mechanical (a Sigelei #8):
Lower gauge wire, such as 28 gauge, allows for more wire for a given resistance target than higher gauge wire. This in turn permits the use of much thicker wicks (I use 3x3mm in my Smok RDA) and even dual coils with thick wicks. More wicks means more wicking which means more liquid exposed to the heating coil(s) and in turn means potentially much more vapor production. Of course increased airflow is also a factor in reaching optimum vapor conditions and this ultimately leads to a reduction in nicotine levels too. I too find I can only tolerate half the nicotine at SLR levels of vaping! I use 18mg in vivis and the like on my Vamo and only 9mg in my SLR devices.
Lower gauge wire, being thicker, also provides a larger contact area with the wick itself and again I believe this contributes to better vapor production than a much thinner wire (higher gauge) at the same resistance target. I won't pretend to fully understand the thermodynamic characteristics of the two wires but it seems obvious to me that they are quite different and I have discovered that I personally prefer the results provided by the thicker wire.
Lower nic levels mean less throat hit and (presumably) diluted liquid leading to diluted flavor are BOTH quite nicely offset by the significant increase in vapor production in a properly dialed in SLR device... with the added benefit of being able to exhale huge clouds of vapor, upon demand.
Dialing in the coils to find the "sweet spot" on a mech, 1.1 ohms on a 500 mesh/28 gauge kanthal setup on one of my AGA-T2s, means that any VERY strong hits from a freshly charged battery quickly roll off as the 4.2 edge of that charge is softened. It's then a perceptibly even vape, more or less, until the battery reaches about 3.6-3.8 volts (several hours) at which time I exchange it for another one and the old battery gets a turn on the charger. My 0.9 ohm Smok RDA is similar. In both examples I tried slight variations on wick-coil combinations for slightly lower or slightly higher resistance before I settled on these "sweet spots" for "flattest" vaping pleasure throughout the battery charge.
My (very slightly improved) mod never gets warm, beyond the body heat of my hand or heat transfer from the atty, even when I'm chain vaping.
I try to do my research before throwing money at such an obscure topic as mechanical mods and SLR devices. I started a thread in the APV section before I made my first purchase. I started it because I wanted to establish how many mechanical users ended up installing a "kick", which to me seemed to defeat most of the advantages of a purely mechanical mod. I had that question answered and at the same time learned quite a bit about SLR, why people might prefer it, and mech mods in general. You can see the thread here:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...who-honestly-prefers-vape-un-kicked-mech.html
Some conclusions I've made since I've been vaping low ohm and sub-ohm attachments on my first mechanical (a Sigelei #8):
Lower gauge wire, such as 28 gauge, allows for more wire for a given resistance target than higher gauge wire. This in turn permits the use of much thicker wicks (I use 3x3mm in my Smok RDA) and even dual coils with thick wicks. More wicks means more wicking which means more liquid exposed to the heating coil(s) and in turn means potentially much more vapor production. Of course increased airflow is also a factor in reaching optimum vapor conditions and this ultimately leads to a reduction in nicotine levels too. I too find I can only tolerate half the nicotine at SLR levels of vaping! I use 18mg in vivis and the like on my Vamo and only 9mg in my SLR devices.
Lower gauge wire, being thicker, also provides a larger contact area with the wick itself and again I believe this contributes to better vapor production than a much thinner wire (higher gauge) at the same resistance target. I won't pretend to fully understand the thermodynamic characteristics of the two wires but it seems obvious to me that they are quite different and I have discovered that I personally prefer the results provided by the thicker wire.
Lower nic levels mean less throat hit and (presumably) diluted liquid leading to diluted flavor are BOTH quite nicely offset by the significant increase in vapor production in a properly dialed in SLR device... with the added benefit of being able to exhale huge clouds of vapor, upon demand.
Dialing in the coils to find the "sweet spot" on a mech, 1.1 ohms on a 500 mesh/28 gauge kanthal setup on one of my AGA-T2s, means that any VERY strong hits from a freshly charged battery quickly roll off as the 4.2 edge of that charge is softened. It's then a perceptibly even vape, more or less, until the battery reaches about 3.6-3.8 volts (several hours) at which time I exchange it for another one and the old battery gets a turn on the charger. My 0.9 ohm Smok RDA is similar. In both examples I tried slight variations on wick-coil combinations for slightly lower or slightly higher resistance before I settled on these "sweet spots" for "flattest" vaping pleasure throughout the battery charge.
My (very slightly improved) mod never gets warm, beyond the body heat of my hand or heat transfer from the atty, even when I'm chain vaping.
Thanks for the info!
Not really a concern at the voltage and current that we are dealing with. Cant say that I'm familiar with switch bounce.?. Arching at ~4 volts is nearly microscopic. The only concern for failure that I see is oxidation/patina. Nothing that a little preventive maintenance wont fix.
For the limitations debate....I depends on the type of limitation you are talking about. A designed "safety" limitation is that most VV/VW devices wont fire a coil below 1.3Ω. An unintended functional limitation is that many VV/VW devices wont fire higher than 11 watts without going to stacked batteries. The "5 Amp Switch" is a misnomer brought about by creative marketing. Most switches are logic level, low current tact switches. All the power handling is done by transistors.
I don't get this.
Amps fry switches. Double the volts with the same amps and you double the watts, so you can do twice the work in the same amount of time. I'm thinking this will create more heat and make the switch fail sooner. What am I missing?
What you *might* be missing is that electricity traveling through solid material, even the battery, encounters resistance. That internal resistance actually consumes some of the power intended for the coil in your atty. It's wasted instead as heat, in every piece of the hardware. Worse yet as amperage increases so does the amount of waste... and heat! Doubling the volts to produce the same amount of wattage on a given load means cutting the amperage in half. It reduces waste heat throughout the system and being a more efficient circuit will make your battery charge last longer as well.
As you know the thinner gauge wires are actually higher resistance than the thicker ones. Any guess on where the "hottest" point will be in a wired mod when the amperage is too high?
Here is more than any vaper should really know about electricity:
HowStuffWorks "What are amps, watts, volts and ohms?"
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I'm going to reply this way because I can make comments in multiple places easier.
Got it.
This is what I'm having trouble with. How can two systems using the same power have different waste generated? The coil will heat to the same temperature, right? If so, why would the other resisters stay cooler? And how can your battery last longer if the same amount of work is done?
Heading over there to read up. Thanks Oktyabr.
Got it.
This is what I'm having trouble with. How can two systems using the same power have different waste generated? The coil will heat to the same temperature, right? If so, why would the other resisters stay cooler? And how can your battery last longer if the same amount of work is done?
Heading over there to read up. Thanks Oktyabr.
I hope that link helps! I am by NO means an electrical engineer! From my understanding (from links like that one and other threads on this forum) 10 watts at the coil is 10 watts at the coil. The difference being how much waste -heat- is being generated in the rest of the system (flimsy wires, circuits, the switch itself, etc.) which is all reliant on amperage. Say the target wattage stays the same. Double voltage = half the amps and half the amps = half the wasted energy and half the waste heat that is generated. No wires in the switch glowing and that funny smell of melting plastic
That's why mechanical mods, for the most part, don't use hair-thin (high resistance) wires and flimsy switches. They need to be able to handle the amperage (and heat) generated by utilizing an SLR coil. This is also, presumably, the reason that the "kick" is limited to 10 watts and most VV/VW devices have an operating ceiling of 15 watts... it really isn't the watts, it's the amperage going through tiny wires to generate those watts... that matters.
On a tangent this is probably why using the *wrong* batteries in a mech can be so dangerous! "High drain" batteries are often designed to supply up to 10 amps of drain, safely. Ask a less capable battery to exceed it's amperage limit and bad things might happen.
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Sigh.
I'm splitting hairs...but to say that "Amps fry switches" is...um...incomplete.
It's BOTH. Volts and amps. Or BOTH amps and resistance. And if you have amps...you have volts...and unless you have a super-conductor...you have resistance. It's true, and commonly said, that "It's not the volts that kill you...it's the amps" but even then...it doesn't explain it.
You see....that resistance you're talking about...that's where the heat is generated. However, the heat is a result of both the "pressure" (volts) and the # of electrons passing a point (amps). The volts are a factor...that's how they overcome the resistance. And why we have high-voltage long distance transmission lines. In fact, voltage is squared in some formula...providing for more efficiency and less heat loss. Or another way to say it...you wouldn't have amps without volts too. And the resistance limits the amps...etc. They all work together.
That's why we have a watts measurement...a measure of "work" performed...as in the physics definition of work. Similar to the measurement of "foot-pounds" for torque or "meters per second" for speed. You need two variables. You can't say "the pounds break stuff" when talking about torque. Nor can you say "the feet breaks stuff". No...you have to say "The foot-pounds" breaks stuff, or "XXX foot-pounds required to turn".
So amps at no pressure don't do much (well, potential amps). Neither do high volts at no amps (one of Tesla's favorite tricks as I remember). The amount of work done for electricity is quantity * pressure. AKA amps * volts. AKA watts.
It's just that since you are always dealing with 3.x volts as a norm (I know 4.x too) that you can factor it out of your equation and say "Amps fry stuff".
This is also why when you have any two variables, you can derive the rest. But you have to have two. Maybe you're implicitly considering resistance as a 2nd variable. But then, you'd still have all variables ...or could calculate them.
I'm not picking on ya. I like your posts. It's just....I let it pass before and it keeps coming up and I get compulsive and have to pipe in.
I believe you're thinking rightly...but you're implicitly factoring in the internal resistance of the components...which means you have two variables (amps and some resistance) and thus you have all variables (at least for that sub-component) including the watts.
Thus...you can't talk about any one component in isolation.
I'm splitting hairs...but to say that "Amps fry switches" is...um...incomplete.
It's BOTH. Volts and amps. Or BOTH amps and resistance. And if you have amps...you have volts...and unless you have a super-conductor...you have resistance. It's true, and commonly said, that "It's not the volts that kill you...it's the amps" but even then...it doesn't explain it.
You see....that resistance you're talking about...that's where the heat is generated. However, the heat is a result of both the "pressure" (volts) and the # of electrons passing a point (amps). The volts are a factor...that's how they overcome the resistance. And why we have high-voltage long distance transmission lines. In fact, voltage is squared in some formula...providing for more efficiency and less heat loss. Or another way to say it...you wouldn't have amps without volts too. And the resistance limits the amps...etc. They all work together.
That's why we have a watts measurement...a measure of "work" performed...as in the physics definition of work. Similar to the measurement of "foot-pounds" for torque or "meters per second" for speed. You need two variables. You can't say "the pounds break stuff" when talking about torque. Nor can you say "the feet breaks stuff". No...you have to say "The foot-pounds" breaks stuff, or "XXX foot-pounds required to turn".
So amps at no pressure don't do much (well, potential amps). Neither do high volts at no amps (one of Tesla's favorite tricks as I remember). The amount of work done for electricity is quantity * pressure. AKA amps * volts. AKA watts.
It's just that since you are always dealing with 3.x volts as a norm (I know 4.x too) that you can factor it out of your equation and say "Amps fry stuff".
This is also why when you have any two variables, you can derive the rest. But you have to have two. Maybe you're implicitly considering resistance as a 2nd variable. But then, you'd still have all variables ...or could calculate them.
I'm not picking on ya.
I like your posts. It's just....I let it pass before and it keeps coming up and I get compulsive and have to pipe in. I believe you're thinking rightly...but you're implicitly factoring in the internal resistance of the components...which means you have two variables (amps and some resistance) and thus you have all variables (at least for that sub-component) including the watts.
Thus...you can't talk about any one component in isolation.
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The other thing we have to remember....is theoretical vs actual. In other words....if we measured the output of the device + coil we could calculate the internal resistance of the device by subtracting out the coil resistance (measured separately) from the resistance measurement/calculation for the system as a whole. However it's probably very low and only factors in for small electronics components or very thin wires. Hard to even measure accurately. And that's for a mech mod...with wires or not (with wire = not true all mech).
So...most of the calcs we do...we measure the ohms of the coil, and calculate theoretically...and ignore the internal resistance of the components of the device. That's not always good. The devices have published limits. "4 amp switch" and such. So yeah, it's part of the results in the real world.
So in other words...I take your general point Oktyabr...you have to not melt stuf!!!! And this implies that the less internal resistance a device has...the more efficient it is...and the more goes to the coil. Yep.
So what we don't commonly see is the internal resistance measurement for the devices. What we see is "XX amp switch". And that's incomplete too...because it's really a ohms/volts/amps/watts concern. Design comes into play too. For example, on the regulators that I use, it's the amount of voltage DROP that's the main concern...not really the amps. It gets hotter as I dial the voltage down because it has to shunt the excess voltage rather than pass it. lol!!!! Of course, it still has an amps limit....because it has an internal resistance.
The battery cell voltage is "fixed/average" so it has an amps limit (well, C rating). But you could multiply the voltage by the amps and have watts.
So...most of the calcs we do...we measure the ohms of the coil, and calculate theoretically...and ignore the internal resistance of the components of the device. That's not always good. The devices have published limits. "4 amp switch" and such. So yeah, it's part of the results in the real world.
So in other words...I take your general point Oktyabr...you have to not melt stuf!!!! And this implies that the less internal resistance a device has...the more efficient it is...and the more goes to the coil. Yep.
So what we don't commonly see is the internal resistance measurement for the devices. What we see is "XX amp switch". And that's incomplete too...because it's really a ohms/volts/amps/watts concern. Design comes into play too. For example, on the regulators that I use, it's the amount of voltage DROP that's the main concern...not really the amps. It gets hotter as I dial the voltage down because it has to shunt the excess voltage rather than pass it. lol!!!! Of course, it still has an amps limit....because it has an internal resistance.
The battery cell voltage is "fixed/average" so it has an amps limit (well, C rating). But you could multiply the voltage by the amps and have watts.
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Depending on your mech most are built to withstand almost any current.
Your #1 concern is getting the right battery for the job. I use Samsung INR18650-20R, AW IMR 18650 1600mah (not 2000mah), or MNKE IMR 18650 in that order. All are rated at 20+ amps constant discharge.
Figure out what each gauge of wire produces and don't fire it if you are pushing the limits of your battery.
Volt*Volt/Ohm=Watts
Watts/Volt=Amps
Never let the amps =/> your batterys' capability.
The other major concern is a hard short causing a malfunction. Thicker wire is more forgiving but also less resistance. Some rbas are easier to setup than others. If you see a white spot when you test fire it's a short and needs to be dealt with before moving forward. Sometimes it's simply a nudge of the coil but generally it's a coil wrapped too loose/tight or poor oxidation. Watch some vids and get comfortable, if you run into big trouble join the live chat there are quite a few vets that can help out.
Your #1 concern is getting the right battery for the job. I use Samsung INR18650-20R, AW IMR 18650 1600mah (not 2000mah), or MNKE IMR 18650 in that order. All are rated at 20+ amps constant discharge.
Figure out what each gauge of wire produces and don't fire it if you are pushing the limits of your battery.
Volt*Volt/Ohm=Watts
Watts/Volt=Amps
Never let the amps =/> your batterys' capability.
The other major concern is a hard short causing a malfunction. Thicker wire is more forgiving but also less resistance. Some rbas are easier to setup than others. If you see a white spot when you test fire it's a short and needs to be dealt with before moving forward. Sometimes it's simply a nudge of the coil but generally it's a coil wrapped too loose/tight or poor oxidation. Watch some vids and get comfortable, if you run into big trouble join the live chat there are quite a few vets that can help out.
Thanks for getting us back on track. Totally agree to be super-safe with the battery capability calcs.
IDK...this is just rambling...but IDK why you guys don't just insist on using hi-amp regulated mods. Then you don't have to deal with the 4.2v to 3.7v drops.
Or use parallel batteries (not stacked in series, but wired in parallel). Would be safer...assuming you also had each battery rated for the max amps just in case one of them disconnected somehow. It would give you twice the capacity (duration) and avoid stressing the batteries near their max (would be 1/2 their max). You might even be able to use protected batteries then (since if one disconnected the protection circuit should trip on the other....I'd want to research that one more though.)
The all-mech mods lack any form of short protection. I'd sure as heck make certain that my all-mech mod had a lot of vents or a blow out plug...even with IMRs.
IDK...this is just rambling...but IDK why you guys don't just insist on using hi-amp regulated mods. Then you don't have to deal with the 4.2v to 3.7v drops.
Or use parallel batteries (not stacked in series, but wired in parallel). Would be safer...assuming you also had each battery rated for the max amps just in case one of them disconnected somehow. It would give you twice the capacity (duration) and avoid stressing the batteries near their max (would be 1/2 their max). You might even be able to use protected batteries then (since if one disconnected the protection circuit should trip on the other....I'd want to research that one more though.)
The all-mech mods lack any form of short protection. I'd sure as heck make certain that my all-mech mod had a lot of vents or a blow out plug...even with IMRs.
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Well parallel cells have their own inherit risks. As far as a regulated device they just don't compare to a direct power mech. The voltage drop is very fast as most batteries are designed to run in the 3.6-3.7v range for most of the charge so your vape is very consistent.
As far as safety all mods should have venting, and you can add safety if you want but I have never myself. If you take care of your cells and mods you have very little to worry about as long as it's quality batteries. I fear protected LiCo batteries much more, or even a mod that uses a chip that could burn out as a safety mechanism. Mech mods are popular because there is just nothing that can happen you can't fix yourself provided you have the parts and know how or youtube.
If you use one of the three batteries I mentioned above they can handle such high loads they rarely ever get pushed hard. I can run a 55watt setup and I'm still only pulling 14amps at peak, 12watts at normal operating voltage.
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