noob ?s low ohms concerns

Status
Not open for further replies.

AttyPops

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jul 8, 2010
8,708
134,173
Hc Svnt Dracones - USA EST
Yeah...I call B.S. on the "regulated don't compare" claim....but I agree that you may have to make some adjustments to compensate for the difference.

The inherent short protection is mostly what I was after. Also after consistency...however your point about the voltage curve of Li-Ion (IMR etc too) is well made.

The parallel batteries...as long as each individual cell is rated high enough for max amps...have less issues and should be safer on average.
 
Last edited:

TomCatt

Da Catt
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 8, 2011
4,162
18,320
Upland, PA
Hmmmm, forgot the last "mod" I put together was a "passthrough" using this eBay Chinese VV module - supposedly capable of handling 6A - "Output Current: bare board 6A(MAX), metal shell and add heat sink 8A(MAX),10A in a flash."
DC DC Buck Converter 4 5 14V to 0 8 9 5V 6A Adjustable Mini Step Down Module | eBay

Using a 12V/2A AC adapter to power (24 watts from source). Say, even 80% efficiency, should be able to get ~19 watts to the atty.


SLR experiment may proceed today :laugh:


ETA: 3.7V with 0.8Ω = 17 watts

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/tutorial/altchrc.html

OK, not a convert; but didn't really burn the juice, although seemed on the edge - no "great flavor"; no "amazing clouds" of vapor.

  • 28 gauge Kanthal A1 wire
  • 3/4 wrap on 2.5mm wood shaft from large cotton swab
  • 0.8Ω measured on the Vamo (multimeter here at work sucks, has ~0.4-0.5Ω zero - this read 0.9-1.0Ω. Vamo agrees with multimeter at home for the most part)
  • cotton ball cotton wick
  • Phoenix (Chinese) dripping atty
  • 0 mg/mL 12% TPA peppermint in 80/20 PG/VG juice - my ADV w/o nic

3.7 V with 0.2V drop under power - 16.9 watts (taste meh)
4.2 V with 0.2V drop under power - 21.8 watts (taste on edge of 'too much power')

ETA:
Took it up to 4.3V - worked, not much different than 4.2V in taste/vapor - 22.9 watts
Took it up to 4.4V - module shut down - this would have been 24 watts which is as much as the source is rated for (current would have been 5.5A)

Guess I would need to up the VG % to 'blow amazing clouds' :rolleyes: - who woulda thunk that? :lol:

The vape wasn't as bad as I would have thought. It was quite warm, which was why I stuck with the CE2s for so long. I've switched to the bottom-coils for the (IMO) better taste.
Maybe with juices that need more heat to release the flavors (from what I've read, tobaccos, coffees), this could be a viable option (with adequate safety). I think a box mod with a 25C lipo battery may be better than a tube mod with IMRs; but I'm not an electrical engineer or a battery expert.
.................
 

TomCatt

Da Catt
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 8, 2011
4,162
18,320
Upland, PA
MNKE IMR specs from Avid Vapor website:

"
Additonal Specifications:

Rated Capacity 1500 mAh

Maximum Continuous Discharging Current 20 A

Maximum pulse Discharging Current 60 A

Maximum Continuous Charging Current 6.5 A

Maximum Rated Discharging Current 30 A

Nominal Voltage 3.8 V

Maximum Charge Voltage 4.2±0.05 V

Temperature Range/Discharge -20~60degree

Temperature Range/Charge 0~45degree

Temperature Range/Storage -20~35 degree

Internal Resistance at Shipping 23±1 mΩ
"

Wow :blink: hmmm .... :D
 

D4rk50ul

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 3, 2010
1,331
945
Hawaii
www.xda-developers.com
Yeah...I call B.S. on the "regulated don't compare" claim....but I agree that you may have to make some adjustments to compensate for the difference.

The inherent short protection is mostly what I was after. Also after consistency...however your point about the voltage curve of Li-Ion (IMR etc too) is well made.

The parallel batteries...as long as each individual cell is rated high enough for max amps...have less issues and should be safer on average.

Regulated to what amperage? I'm usually between 9-15amps on my setups. I think the DNA20 would power it but it would be unregulated and only serve as a safety mechanism (as I understand it atleast) . PWM based Variable mods have a noticeable decrease in vaping performance next to constant power.

I don't see the point in battery packs they would increase the size of my device when it works perfect as is. I've torture tested my setups and was only able to get a battery to vent once out of numerous attempts, and the setup it was on would never be something I built to vape on.

To the guy above, clouds of vapor come from a few things. Cotton burns fast so it might not be ideal, mesh / silica / bamboo might be a better idea. Having the air hole the correct size for vapor vs th vs flavor is important. Also building the coil in a advantageous way helps. I vape only 70pg/30vg and get huge clouds.

a4yzanup.jpg


That's a 0.8ohm oval coil using silica on a Reo. You can imagine what happens when I'm actually pulling air over it with cap on.
 

TomCatt

Da Catt
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 8, 2011
4,162
18,320
Upland, PA
Just reporting on my limited experience. I'm willing to tinker - actually very willing - but SLR just doesn't seem to work for my ADV. I'll probably play around with it some more; but w/o an 'out of the gate' improvement (even slight), I don't see it working for me.
Good to hear about the 'test to failure' activities.

I've been using cotton (this) for quite a few months now and prefer it over silica for wicking and others for taste.


But, as in all things, YMMV :D

Vape On! :vapor:
 

D4rk50ul

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 3, 2010
1,331
945
Hawaii
www.xda-developers.com
Yeah...I call B.S. on the "regulated don't compare" claim....but I agree that you may have to make some adjustments to compensate for the difference.

The inherent short protection is mostly what I was after. Also after consistency...however your point about the voltage curve of Li-Ion (IMR etc too) is well made.

The parallel batteries...as long as each individual cell is rated high enough for max amps...have less issues and should be safer on average.

Regulated to what amperage? I'm usually between 9-15amps on my setups. I think the DNA20 would power it but it would be unregulated and only serve as a safety mechanism (as I understand it atleast) . PWM based Variable mods have a noticeable decrease in vaping performance next to constant power.

I don't see the point in battery packs they would increase the size of my device when it works perfect as is. I've torture tested my setups and was only able to get a battery to vent once out of numerous attempts, and the setup it was on would never be something I built to vape on.

To the guy above, clouds of vapor come from a few things. Cotton burns fast so it might not be ideal, mesh / silica / bamboo might be a better idea. Having the air hole the correct size for vapor vs th vs flavor is important. Also building the coil in a advantageous way helps. I vape only 70pg/30vg and get huge clouds.

a4yzanup.jpg


That's a 0.8ohm oval coil using silica on a Reo. You can imagine what happens when I'm actually pulling air over it with cap on.
 

AttyPops

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jul 8, 2010
8,708
134,173
Hc Svnt Dracones - USA EST
Items are not regulated to an amperage. Amperage is the effective result of the voltage (potential difference) and the resistance... end-to-end from the battery's perspective. Given the two, the # of electrons flowing past a point can be calculated and we call that amperage. Also since we know both, we know all (volts, ohms, amps, watts.) So we regulate voltage. Even the VW stuff regulates the voltage...but it measures the ohms and then calculates the voltage accordingly to achieve the wattage. You can think of amperage as a measurable result of other stuff if you wish.

Of course, things have amp ratings...but that's at a voltage...hence my earlier (observe the watts info in TomCatt's post) comment.

You don't HAVE to use parallel batteries. It's just that you'd have to swap out less frequently, and it may add some safety. Just don't get into a situation where one battery can't handle the needed amps alone.

The PWM stuff can be filtered with capacitors, frequency increased, etc. I'd bet you can build a regulated "black box" that is indistinguishable from a battery-only black box....from the coil's performance perspective... allowing for the fact that you wouldn't get a voltage drop over time. Again...you may have to make adjustments manually and vary from the voltage "readout". Also some use Vrms and some use Vavg so...manual adjustments +/- a few 10'ths may be necessary. Adding a filtering cap would fool all but the most sensitive oscilloscopes.

I don't see anything special about an electron produced by an all-mech mod vs a decent (filtered) PWM regulated mod. Other than A) the regulated mod is more consistent and B) probably safer too.

And yes, I think you can get mods that will handle 50 watts...I'm just not sure why.

What's your coil setup?
ETA:
.8 ohms at 3.6 volts is 4.5 amps....not 15 amps.
 
Last edited:

Oktyabr

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 12, 2009
1,209
1,811
Next to the ocean, WA
oktyabr.wordpress.com
It's discussions like this one that I thrive on! So much information, getting down to the nitty gritty so to speak.

Here is a link I'm sure all have seen before but I'll post it again anyway for those who haven't:
Voltage Drop - Not Where You Think | atmizoo vaping modware

And an excerpt from it:

Higher current translates into a higher voltage drop and higher losses on the in-series resistance that represents the mod. For example, if a mod with an ideal 4V battery has a 0.1 Ω resistance and the atomizer resistance is 1.9 Ω, then the voltage drop will be 0.2 V and 3.8 V will be applied on the atomizer resistance. When using a 0.9 Ω atomizer resistance, the voltage drop will be 0.4 V and 3.6 V will reach the atomizer.

In terms of power, in the first case 0.4 W will be losses and 7.6 W useful power ( 5% lost ), while in the second case 1.6 W will be losses and 14.4 W useful power ( 10% lost ).

The whole article is a worth while read.

Now the question that comes to my mind is which type of device has higher voltage drop? A VV/VW or a pure mechanical, and let's say we use the same exact battery and atty?
 

AttyPops

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jul 8, 2010
8,708
134,173
Hc Svnt Dracones - USA EST
True for mech mods, but not completely relevant for regulated...here's why:

The voltage regulators DO have a voltage drop on them (at least when we're discussing buck regulators). That's why we strive to get LDO (Low Drop Out) regulators...they have less voltage drop. However, we're discussing the OUTPUT VOLTAGE of the regulator. So it's relevant when measuring from the battery side but not from the output perspective. Make sense? That's why the input voltage is 7.2avg volts and it's regulated downward.

Also for boosters... they basically draw MORE amps than output...they need to transform it to higher voltage and there's an effective amperage loss while doing that (they basically trade off some amps for volts. Sort of. Energy can't be created or destroyed but it can change forms/effects.)

So basically the resistance from the regulator's output to the connector may be .0001 ohms. Virtually non-existent if they used decent wire.

Still, it's a good point and should be factored into the device draw when allowing for battery amp limits and drain.
 
Last edited:

Oktyabr

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 12, 2009
1,209
1,811
Next to the ocean, WA
oktyabr.wordpress.com
Thanks for detailing that further for me AttyPops!

I'm going to quote a comment in that article I linked. I found it as interesting as the article itself. Your thoughts?

From above linked article, author "Manu" 06/02/2013, 1:27 PM:

A lower atomizer resistance translates into higher current = more power = more vapour. However, the higher the current, the higher the voltage drop on the internal battery resistance and mod resistance.

Remember that voltage drops at high currents cannot be completely eliminated. The presence of voltage drop only means that the efficiency is decreased. With lower resistance coils, the power on the atomizer increases, but a higher percentage of it is lost on the way.

Let’s get to an example:

Joe

Joe has an 18500 non-IMR battery. He vapes with an RBA that has a 1.2 Ohm coil. His battery is fully charged, so he decides to measure the voltage drop of his Roller.

Joe measures the battery voltage at open-circuit, and finds it to be 4.2 Volts.

Then, Joe measures the voltage across the atomizer terminals under load, and finds it to be 3.79 Volts. He assumes that his mod is giving him a voltage drop of 0.41 Volts and frowns unhappily. He is convinced that his mod is not giving him a good hit, although it vapes like a train.

Jay

Jay has a fresh 18500 IMR battery. He vapes with an RBA that has a 2.2 Ohm coil. His battery is fully charged, so he decides to measure the voltage drop of his Roller.

Jay measures the battery voltage at open-circuit, and finds it to be 4.2 Volts.

Then, Jay measures the voltage across the atomizer terminals under load, and finds it to be 4.02 Volts. He assumes that his Roller is giving him a voltage drop of 0.18 Volts and goes on to say how amazing it is and how great it vapes.

One minor detail I forgot to mention is that Joe sold his Roller to Jay because of the “voltage drop issue”, so it’s the *same* device.

On to the explanation:

The voltage across a resistance is given by the rather simplified formula V = I * R, where I is the current supplied by the battery and R the resistance we are examining.

The current I flowing through a mod is roughly equal to: I = Voc / ( Ra + Rm + Ri ), where Voc is the open circuit voltage of the battery, Rm is the equivalent mod resistance, Ri is the internal battery resistance and Ra is the atomizer resistance.

A typical value for Ri would be around 0.08 Ohms for a non-IMR battery that is in *OK* condition, while a newer, larger capacity, non stressed, high-drain battery might be better. Take this value with a grain of salt, since each battery is different.

Now, the mod’s equivalent resistance is again not a static quantity, since it depends on how tight the different components are screwed, how clean they are, and many other variable factors. A typical equivalent value would be around 0.05 Ohms, perhaps even less.

So, with the same mod (Rm = 0.05) in the same condition and configuration, Joe was vaping at a current of:

I_joe = 4.2 / (0.08 + 0.05 + 1.2) = 3.16 Amps,

which gives an atomizer voltage of

Va_joe = 3.16 * 1.2 = 3.79 Volts.

In the case of Jay, these values were:

I_jay = 4.2 / (0.05 + 0.05 + 2.2) = 1.83 Amps
Va_jay = 1.83 * 2.2 = 4.02 Volts

So – the voltage drop says nothing. In fact, Joe’s kit was putting out many more watts than Jay’s, because of the low atomizer resistance. Joe was vaping at:

P_joe = Va_joe * I_joe = 3.16 * 3.79 = 12 Watts

while Jay is vaping at:

P_jay = Va_jay * I_jay = 1.83 * 4.02 = 7.36 Watts

Bottom line:

If you want to vape with a low resistance coil, the best thing to do in order to maximize efficiency is to use a high-drain, high-energy battery (18500/18650 IMR).

If Joe had a good IMR battery, his current and voltage would be:

I_joe’ = 4.2 / (0.04 + 0.05 + 1.2) = 3.26 Amps,

which would give an atomizer voltage of

Va_joe’ = 3.16 * 1.2 = 3.91 Volts

and a power of

P_joe’ = 12.73 Watts,

which is much better than the 3.79 Volts and 12 Watts he got with the non-IMR battery.
 

AttyPops

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jul 8, 2010
8,708
134,173
Hc Svnt Dracones - USA EST
Yeah... we've always said that if you try to "pull" more amps from a battery than it can put out...an electron-starved coil...it will result in a voltage drop. It also stresses the battery. This is why IMR's are needed in some situations...like when using boosters since they require extra amps.


BTW...I'm no EE, so I'm just "brain dumping" for purposes of discussion. No warranties express or implied. :)
 
Last edited:

D4rk50ul

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 3, 2010
1,331
945
Hawaii
www.xda-developers.com
My last coil was a spiral 0.1mm X 0.5mm a-1 kanthal ribbon coming in at around 0.3ohms. At peak it was 58w and above 50w at operating voltage.

This was used on a Precise plus which has basically zero voltage drop from what I've seen on a DID from MMvapors.

I've also made twisted 28awg and 26awg coils but they don't have enough surface contact to prevent juice bbq when the wicking isn't ideal.

If a VV could do sub ohm coils safely and effectively I'd like it but none that I know of can handle that much power. I also like having a maintenance free armageddon proof device.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread