Now I Know The Importance Of Buying "AR" Battery's.

[Striker911]

I must have got a bunk battery cause I have a mod working on dual 14500 TF 900mah battery's and they are on charge number 3 in less then 24 hours. Its too late to send them back cause it took a while to get around to making the mod. I bet they lasted about 15 charges or less before I noticed them running low a lot faster then normal.

So if I want AW 14500's where can I get them for cheap? This is my issue. I can get 4 more of what I have for a couple bucks more then just one of the AW's that provape sells.

Protected Trustfire 14500 Battery, 900 mAH

AW 14500 batteries

Any opinions on this? I know AW is better but the cost is nuts. The battery is costing more then the PV at this point no matter what option I go with. Maybe someone has an entirely diff option? Has to be protected battery's though.

 

[dale1962]

Try RTDVAPOR.COM,Randy with RTD is great and less expensive than Provape..............

 

[dale1962]

AW IMR 14500

 

[Striker911]

Only ended up being .50 cents cheaper after shipping. I may have to just stick to what I got and buy in bulk. If I buy 4 aw's I could get 10 TF's for around the same price. Thats where im at for the time being. Think I will make an order some time today although my mind is not made up of what I am actually going to do yet. AW is a high dollar battery.

 

[NickZac]

A loss of significant life that fast can be signs of overcharging, overdischarging, and even an overdraw...that should be ruled out first my monitoring the voltage (you may have done so already).

The AW P may be larger dimension-wise than the Trustfires. Depending on your unit, neither may be ideal and you may actually want an IMR depending on the draw. The IMRs hold up better in heavier drain environments and that is why the Provari and Kick recommends them exclusively. The 14500 IMRs are a bit less too. Tenergy makes a 14500 which is pretty decent and sells for $2-4. They have a button top and recessed top. 14500 Li-Ion Battery (3.7v) They are a lot better than the Trustfires you currently have. However, at the end of the day, AW batteries are the best all around, and arguably the safest.

Also keep in mind that if you overcharge or overdischarge any rechargable lithium cell, you will kill its life (and possibly cause a vent/outright explosion) and so a multimeter is a MUST have to know how your charger and batteries are performing.

 

[Striker911]

A loss of significant life that fast can be signs of overcharging, overdischarging, and even an overdraw...that should be ruled out first my monitoring the voltage (you may have done so already).

The AW P may be larger dimension-wise than the Trustfires. Depending on your unit, neither may be ideal and you may actually want an IMR depending on the draw. The IMRs hold up better in heavier drain environments and that is why the Provari and Kick recommends them exclusively. The 14500 IMRs are a bit less too. Tenergy makes a 14500 which is pretty decent and sells for $2-4. They have a button top and recessed top. 14500 Li-Ion Battery (3.7v) They are a lot better than the Trustfires you currently have. However, at the end of the day, AW batteries are the best all around, and arguably the safest.

Also keep in mind that if you overcharge or overdischarge any rechargable lithium cell, you will kill its life (and possibly cause a vent/outright explosion) and so a multimeter is a MUST have to know how your charger and batteries are performing.

I might be using them too long and that could be my issue. I thought protected battery's that allow the mod to stop working was all you needed? It shuts off and I put them on the charger. They just came off the charger and meeter out at 4.14 and 4.13. Before that both said 4.15 and the first charge they said 4.23. Taking less charge every time. I was also worried about the charge rate being so high on the charger. Not real sure what to do.

I have like two weeks till my other mod gets here and I can use the AW IMR 18650's again. Should I risk it, or buy some 14500 AW IMR's? I am sure once the other mod gets here I wont be using this one so spending another $20 on battery's for a mod that cost under $30 total with the battery's included its a less then ideal situation. If I had went with the AW's out of the gate im sure I would have had no issues.

 

[Striker911]

Tested them after the PV shut off. One said 3.08V and the other said 3.38. Should I worry about this? Sorry if this seems like a dumb question. But I think when safety is involved its worth asking.

 

[NickZac]

I might be using them too long and that could be my issue. I thought protected battery's that allow the mod to stop working was all you needed? It shuts off and I put them on the charger. They just came off the charger and meeter out at 4.14 and 4.13. Before that both said 4.15 and the first charge they said 4.23. Taking less charge every time. I was also worried about the charge rate being so high on the charger. Not real sure what to do.

I have like two weeks till my other mod gets here and I can use the AW IMR 18650's again. Should I risk it, or buy some 14500 AW IMR's? I am sure once the other mod gets here I wont be using this one so spending another $20 on battery's for a mod that cost under $30 total with the battery's included its a less then ideal situation. If I had went with the AW's out of the gate im sure I would have had no issues.

4.23 is approaching an overcharge as it is a little higher than it should be. The fresh charge capacity should not vary that much. How long did you wait to test them after taking them of the charger? Both should be at 4.20 to 4.21 with most good chargers, hold the XTAR which is slightly lower but still also an excellent charger. Are you using a good charger?

A battery's protection is kind of a 'last line of defense' sort of thing. It should never be relied on because in reality, this protection doesn't always work and protected cells still explode. When a battery goes into sleep mode on itself, it is unusable from that point on unless you have a charger that is designed to charge a protected battery that has gone to 'sleep'. If the battery is at a low voltage for a prolonged state of time, it should not ever be 'awakened'. Also, by using a multimeter or changing batteries frequently before the unit cuts off, you are placing less strain on the battery. By charging them before they get to a low point, you prolong service life. The AW IMRs do not have protection but, due to a safer chemistry, they are at a much lesser risk of an explosion than other rechargeable lithium cells such as P ICRs..

Personally, I only use AW batteries and I like the AW IMRs because they can be used heavily (not to imply they can be abused), have a long service life, and are very safe. Under load, they perform better than ICRs for most of the usable life (note that ICRs give a longer runtime in most cases but with lower voltage). Many people say their QC is exceptional, which I have come to believe given the name these batteries have made in the industry. I'd make the argument that the AW IMRs are better for many of the mods because the AW IMRs are better suited for the higher drain application which a PV presents, including rapid discharge of the battery by heavy vapers and hungry PVs.


Now under load...this is where the AW IMRs slaughter everything else... (warning, the guy curses at the generic batteries)

Tested them after the PV shut off. One said 3.08V and the other said 3.38. Should I worry about this? Sorry if this seems like a dumb question. But I think when safety is involved its worth asking.

Yes, throw them both out. A voltage as low as 3.08 is close to over-discharge and not far from when the battery goes into 'sleep/death mode'. More importantly, the level of difference in voltage between the two batteries is not anywhere near ideal and so they should be replaced. Any stacked batteries should always be kept as a pair. Once they show different characteristics in voltage, they should be replaced. Now if you want to keep using them or not, that is a personal call. The Tenergy 14500s that are like $3 may be a decent tradeoff, although if the device is not regulated, you will get a performance difference with the AW IMR due to the higher voltage it holds under load.

I think I've explained this right but I've had a few glasses of wine so someone please correct me if I made a booboo

 

[WillyB]

Many people say their QC is exceptional, which I have come to believe given the name these batteries have made in the industry. I'd make the argument that the AW IMRs are better for many of the mods because the AW IMRs are better suited for the higher drain application which a PV presents, including rapid discharge of the battery by heavy vapers and hungry PVs.

Which industry is that? The flashlight fanatics? AW's niche is flashlights, their 'Sales Office' is a thread on a flashlight forum. They have no corporate customers and have neither a site or any available spec sheets.

A battery's protection is kind of a 'last line of defense' sort of thing. It should never be relied on because in reality, this protection doesn't always work and protected cells still explode. When a battery goes into sleep mode on itself, it is unusable from that point on unless you have a charger that is designed to charge a protected battery that has gone to 'sleep'. If the battery is at a low voltage for a prolonged state of time, it should not ever be 'awakened'.

"Sleep Mode"? Sounds like BatteryU talk where they also say:

feature a wake-up feature or “boost” to reactivate and charge batteries that have fallen asleep. Without this feature, a charger would render these batteries as unserviceable and the packs would be discarded. The boost feature applies a small charge current to first activate the protection circuit and then commence with a normal charge.

Do not boot lithium-based batteries back to life that have dwelled below 1.5V/cell for a week or longer.

A study done by Cadex to examine failed batteries reveals that three out of ten batteries are removed from service due to over-discharge. Furthermore, 90 percent of returned batteries have no fault or can easily be serviced... Refurbishing batteries saves money and protects the environment.

I can't even count how many times I've tripped the low voltage cut off on various cells mostly using TI linear regulators. For the most part as soon as the cell rests and it cools/stabilizes the PCM re-sets as the voltage will rise.

As far as "the AW IMRs slaughter everything else" this is one of my fav tests.

This a 3A test, a 1.5Ω atty would pull roughly ~2.4A.

All we ever see is some first blast and a winner is delared, there is a bit more to it than that. What we are seeing is an AW IMR vs the ultra cheap BestinOnes, about $4.60. For the first 500mAh the aw does well, but after that point the cheapy is the winner. I'd also venture to say that many would actually prefer the more even and consistent vape of the BIO. Also based on this test I'd venture to say stacked in a VV PV performance/vapetimes would be quite similar.

The vid you posted is a joke. It seemed he did in fact fully charge the AWs, but he noted that the generics could have used more charging. They came in at about 4.1V, is that bad?

I'm sure you understand how batteries are charged, termination is based on current, not voltage. BatteryU calls it full saturation.

Looking this chart @ 4.1V we see that he was comparing a cell that may have been at only 80% capacity, maybe 87%. Hardly seems like a fair test.

Here's a charging chart.

If voltages are to be compared, at least charge both of the brands fully. That's one lame-... test, that you chose to re post.

Striker911

Tested them after the PV shut off. One said 3.08V and the other said 3.38. Should I worry about this? Sorry if this seems like a dumb question. But I think when safety is involved its worth asking.

Nope, those numbers are fine, pretty much what I get in my inexpensive LM2596 based VV. For the most part one cell will usually discharge more than the other in a stack, just flip the position every charge. This is an often discussed phenomena, many actually will switch the cells half way through their vape session. Most PCMs kick in at about ~2.75V, the Li-ion low voltage problem is <2.5V. Your lowest cell is coming in 27% higher than the start of the 'danger zone'.

Too bad that there does seem to some problems with your flames, and both is also odd. You also did list any details of the mod you are using them in. Did you build it yourself? Maybe double check your work or post a rough schematic of how it's built. You do have your fire switch before the regulator I assume.

I bought mine here, as this vendor is often used by the flashlight folk.

http://www.manafont.com/product_inf...echargeable-batteries-colorful-2pcsset-p-5566

And when buying TrustFire pairs I expect them to come in the factory clear shrink as these did.

 

[Striker911]

Awesome post BigWillyB.

Seems like credible info. Thanks a million for taking the time. I can set my mind at ease.

Here is the mod. Made exactly the same with the same parts. Easiest Variable Voltage Mod - Elmo !! - YouTube

 

[NickZac]

Which industry is that? The flashlight fanatics? AW's niche is flashlights, their 'Sales Office' is a thread on a flashlight forum. They have no corporate customers and have neither a site or any available spec sheets.


"Sleep Mode"? Sounds like BatteryU talk where they also say:



I can't even count how many times I've tripped the low voltage cut off on various cells mostly using TI linear regulators. For the most part as soon as the cell rests and it cools/stabilizes the PCM re-sets as the voltage will rise.

As far as "the AW IMRs slaughter everything else" this is one of my fav tests.

This a 3A test, a 1.5Ω atty would pull roughly ~2.4A.

All we ever see is some first blast and a winner is delared, there is a bit more to it than that. What we are seeing is an AW IMR vs the ultra cheap BestinOnes, about $4.60. For the first 500mAh the aw does well, but after that point the cheapy is the winner. I'd also venture to say that many would actually prefer the more even and consistent vape of the BIO. Also based on this test I'd venture to say stacked in a VV PV performance/vapetimes would be quite similar.

The vid you posted is a joke. It seemed he did in fact fully charge the AWs, but he noted that the generics could have used more charging. They came in at about 4.1V, is that bad?

I'm sure you understand how batteries are charged, termination is based on current, not voltage. BatteryU calls it full saturation.

Looking this chart @ 4.1V we see that he was comparing a cell that may have been at only 80% capacity, maybe 87%. Hardly seems like a fair test.

Here's a charging chart.

If voltages are to be compared, at least charge both of the brands fully. That's one lame-... test, that you chose to re post.



Nope, those numbers are fine, pretty much what I get in my inexpensive LM2596 based VV. For the most part one cell will usually discharge more than the other in a stack, just flip the position every charge. This is an often discussed phenomena, many actually will switch the cells half way through their vape session. Most PCMs kick in at about ~2.75V, the Li-ion low voltage problem is <2.5V. Your lowest cell is coming in 27% higher than the start of the 'danger zone'.

Too bad that there does seem to some problems with your flames, and both is also odd. You also did list any details of the mod you are using them in. Did you build it yourself? Maybe double check your work or post a rough schematic of how it's built. You do have your fire switch before the regulator I assume.

I bought mine here, as this vendor is often used by the flashlight folk.

http://www.manafont.com/product_inf...echargeable-batteries-colorful-2pcsset-p-5566

And when buying TrustFire pairs I expect them to come in the factory clear shrink as these did.

I have had that best consistency with AW batteries. Many makers recommend them exclusively and state that they feel they are the best. Many members on this very forum who know a lot more than I say the same thing. Perhaps I am biased by CPF? Also, customer service has been excellent and yes…a flashlight form is where I contacted them from… I was under the impression that for our mods, a high current-capable battery would be favored over extended capacity…is this not the case? (it is worth noting that it appears the Panasonic’s IMR is better overall…but I believe the AW uses Panasonic’s technology/parts or vice versa).

As per your own quote…it is unusable from that point on unless you have a charger that is designed to charge a protected battery
How many chargers that are used here can do that? I do not personally own one (I’m asking that as a legit question and not trying to be a smartass).

And yeah…I missed the whole part where he said he charged them to 4.1 and stopped...I kinda assumed that was the top they came off of the charger at…so shame on me :embarrassed:. But wouldn’t your favorite test indicate that the AW IMR does have the edge in one respect? Again, I figured most people would want a battery that has more up front rather than more sustained and charge more frequently? (which would also aid health as per Battery U). And do you think most vapers will pull 2.5-ish as an average? I am closer to 3.3 at the Provari’s edge and so most of my playing around with batteries has been that.



I originally chose the AW from a test like this:

At 2 amps

At 5 amps

At .5 to 1 amps, the AW IMR isn't too hot, but it performs better under higher amperage, which is what most mods are doing in the 3-5-ish range, right? Am I reading this wrong? I also chose it from Super T’s testing, which I cannot link to as their site is down. The Super T testing showed the AW IMR to perform better than a clone IMR initially, but the clone outlasted the AW but ran at a lower voltage…


And what is the danger zone for stacked batteries? I have read on numerous places that while you should use protected cells if possible, that not discharging them to the point of them cutting out is ideal (including this forum)...can you elaborate? I was also under the impression that a balanced charger should be used to charge the batteries simultaneously and than voltage should remain similar throughout the run, and that if the voltage begins to vary that they should not be used as a pair any further...where does this danger zone range?

 

[iowajosh]

that not discharging them to the point of them cutting out is ideal (including this forum) not really. Some devices don't voltage regulate too well and once the voltage starts to fall on the battery, the output drops off fast. Like my lavaclone, at 3.3v there isn't much left and you'd might as well swap the battery out. It isn't really a point of battery safety.

But, you've got a ton of random questions. Buy some batteries and try them. I'd say something that can put out 5 amps would be ideal and those 3100ma jobbies don't fit in a lot of devices.

I trust in the CPF wisdom. Bust out the voltmeter before and after you charge to make sure the charger is working correctly and they haven't been over drained. The stacked battery devices should use the safer battery chemistry so they don't pop.

I don't like the bargain basement bats. I've had some die after a very short time or show up DOA.