Now the Centers for Disease Control want to horn in on the FDA's act . . .

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Thompson

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While I'd rather they just stayed away, at least the article isn't completely out of whack and spewing false facts.

I'm personally insanely curious about the effects of e-cigarettes on the human body, as I don't think they'll find many if any negatives, and the ones they do can probably be negated by minor adjustments.

But I don't want the government in on it. They'll be just as biased as say a lab hired by BT.
 

Petrodus

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All of these acronyms want to get rid of us maybe we should start a blog stating that the cdc,fda,ala. Ect... Cause cancer and heart disease!!!!
In another thread ... a member said it doesn't seem like a fair fight
when those opposed to e-cigs LIE while all we can do is protest
with the truth.

Personally, I fight to win ... and wouldn't bring a knife
to a gun fight.
 

metropolitan

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don't blame the government for their position, blame big tobacco. the fact is that the decades of lying by big tobacco is what has caused such caution from the FDA and others. Big tobacco was aware of all the dangers of smoking and kept them secret while purposely working to make cigarettes more addictive. this kind of dirty history is the basis for present issues with e-cigarettes.
big tobacco was left to police itself for decades and they failed miserable and instead took advantage of the public's gullibility (look up old cigarette ads with paid doctors promoting them) and watched people die while they raked in the profits.
i don't believe present e-cig manufacturers are the corrupt tobacco bigwigs from decades past and i don't want heavy regulation on vaping but at the same time i believe in being realistic. the FDA and the CDC are not our enemies. they protect us from adulterated foods (back in the day they used to put plaster of paris in bread to save money!), quack pharmaceuticals and outbreaks of deadly viruses. it's better to come up with ways to work with them instead of demonizing them as some evil groups who want to do nothing but make our lives miserable.
 

Petrodus

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This is all part of the pre-release marketing of what the FDA will be dropping on us in April. Every tentacle of the Pharma industry will be beating the drum until then. Don't expect any pleasant surprises. The war is about to heat up, I suspect.
True ...
After the FDA drops their bombs in April ...
All those tentacles of BP will be dancing in the street
demanding bans on e-smoking ... Everywhere !!
 

Fiamma

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This is all part of the pre-release marketing of what the FDA will be dropping on us in April. Every tentacle of the Pharma industry will be beating the drum until then. Don't expect any pleasant surprises. The war is about to heat up, I suspect.

I concur. Not at all surprised CDC has come out of the bushes. They hid in there long enough to fund all the NGO's so they would go to all the Health Officers and promote bans. Congress still wants an answer to that one, but DHHS 'as far as I know' has not responded to either demand for information from them.
 

Fiamma

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don't blame the government for their position, blame big tobacco. the fact is that the decades of lying by big tobacco is what has caused such caution from the FDA and others. Big tobacco was aware of all the dangers of smoking and kept them secret while purposely working to make cigarettes more addictive. this kind of dirty history is the basis for present issues with e-cigarettes.
big tobacco was left to police itself for decades and they failed miserable and instead took advantage of the public's gullibility (look up old cigarette ads with paid doctors promoting them) and watched people die while they raked in the profits.
i don't believe present e-cig manufacturers are the corrupt tobacco bigwigs from decades past and i don't want heavy regulation on vaping but at the same time i believe in being realistic. the FDA and the CDC are not our enemies. they protect us from adulterated foods (back in the day they used to put plaster of paris in bread to save money!), quack pharmaceuticals and outbreaks of deadly viruses. it's better to come up with ways to work with them instead of demonizing them as some evil groups who want to do nothing but make our lives miserable.

FDA and CDC and all the NGO's are funded by the pharmaceutical corporations. Pharma not BT is behind the bulk of this. BT is only waiting for FDA to clear out all the competition for them with their new OTP.
 

slin

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don't blame the government for their position, blame big tobacco. the fact is that the decades of lying by big tobacco is what has caused such caution from the FDA and others. Big tobacco was aware of all the dangers of smoking and kept them secret while purposely working to make cigarettes more addictive. this kind of dirty history is the basis for present issues with e-cigarettes.
big tobacco was left to police itself for decades and they failed miserable and instead took advantage of the public's gullibility (look up old cigarette ads with paid doctors promoting them) and watched people die while they raked in the profits.
i don't believe present e-cig manufacturers are the corrupt tobacco bigwigs from decades past and i don't want heavy regulation on vaping but at the same time i believe in being realistic. the FDA and the CDC are not our enemies. they protect us from adulterated foods (back in the day they used to put plaster of paris in bread to save money!), quack pharmaceuticals and outbreaks of deadly viruses. it's better to come up with ways to work with them instead of demonizing them as some evil groups who want to do nothing but make our lives miserable.
FDA is frontman for BT & BF. Wake up and join the fight.
 

budynbuick

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don't blame the government for their position, blame big tobacco. the fact is that the decades of lying by big tobacco is what has caused such caution from the FDA and others. Big tobacco was aware of all the dangers of smoking and kept them secret while purposely working to make cigarettes more addictive. this kind of dirty history is the basis for present issues with e-cigarettes.
big tobacco was left to police itself for decades and they failed miserable and instead took advantage of the public's gullibility (look up old cigarette ads with paid doctors promoting them) and watched people die while they raked in the profits.
i don't believe present e-cig manufacturers are the corrupt tobacco bigwigs from decades past and i don't want heavy regulation on vaping but at the same time i believe in being realistic. the FDA and the CDC are not our enemies. they protect us from adulterated foods (back in the day they used to put plaster of paris in bread to save money!), quack pharmaceuticals and outbreaks of deadly viruses. it's better to come up with ways to work with them instead of demonizing them as some evil groups who want to do nothing but make our lives miserable.

You have convinced me of the error of my ways. You put that so eloquently I was near weeping. They are our friends & they will save us. Since I now know the truth I shall sleep well tonight. Thank you from my heart. Now, where's that blue pill? BTW, have you noticed what is in your bread now (& the rest of your food)?
 
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sonicdsl

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don't blame the government for their position, blame big tobacco. the fact is that the decades of lying by big tobacco is what has caused such caution from the FDA and others. Big tobacco was aware of all the dangers of smoking and kept them secret while purposely working to make cigarettes more addictive. this kind of dirty history is the basis for present issues with e-cigarettes.
big tobacco was left to police itself for decades and they failed miserable and instead took advantage of the public's gullibility (look up old cigarette ads with paid doctors promoting them) and watched people die while they raked in the profits.
i don't believe present e-cig manufacturers are the corrupt tobacco bigwigs from decades past and i don't want heavy regulation on vaping but at the same time i believe in being realistic. the FDA and the CDC are not our enemies. they protect us from adulterated foods (back in the day they used to put plaster of paris in bread to save money!), quack pharmaceuticals and outbreaks of deadly viruses. it's better to come up with ways to work with them instead of demonizing them as some evil groups who want to do nothing but make our lives miserable.

Please read the information on other threads from Bill Godshall, Kristin, & Elaine who explain why it's Big Pharma and the FDA/CDC/ALA/ACA, etc. that is our enemy, NOT Big Tobacco. You haven't seen the truth yet, apparently. I thought what you stated too, until I started seeing the evidence otherwise.

Also, go to CASAA.org, read, learn and join! :)
 

metropolitan

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demonize them all you want. the fact is they hold the cards. the Food and Drug Administration and the Center for Disease Control are not going away anytime soon.
you can either learn to work with them or be a pain in their asset and reap the consequences. check out the websites for groups like CASAA, TVECA and other pro-vaping organizations. they act like adults and know that to work with and to inform such groups such as the FDA is in their favor as opposed to just characterizing them as evil enemies and then having no place at the table. this is how lobbying works and it's quite effective (for better or worse).

and if you don't like what's in your food now, then maybe you should be lobbying to give the FDA stronger powers over the food supply, not less.
 

metropolitan

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Please read the information on other threads from Bill Godshall, Kristin, & Elaine who explain why it's Big Pharma and the FDA/CDC/ALA/ACA, etc. that is our enemy, NOT Big Tobacco. You haven't seen the truth yet, apparently. I thought what you stated too, until I started seeing the evidence otherwise.

Also, go to CASAA.org, read, learn and join! :)

i'm not saying big tobacco is the enemy. i'm saying their dirty history is what is reflecting on how people view the new industry of e-cigs.
and groups like CASAA work with the FDA. if you go to their website it's all about information and a positive spin, it's not an angry association looking to make enemies.
 

Petrodus

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i'm not saying big tobacco is the enemy. i'm saying their dirty history is what is reflecting on how people view the new industry of e-cigs.
and groups like CASAA work with the FDA. if you go to their website it's all about information and a positive spin, it's not an angry association looking to make enemies.
I'm a little confused why you think groups like CASAA work with the FDA.
Might want to expand on your thoughts as well as point out who are the
other groups might be like CASAA.
 

slin

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demonize them all you want. the fact is they hold the cards. the Food and Drug Administration and the Center for Disease Control are not going away anytime soon.
you can either learn to work with them or be a pain in their asset and reap the consequences. check out the websites for groups like CASAA, TVECA and other pro-vaping organizations. they act like adults and know that to work with and to inform such groups such as the FDA is in their favor as opposed to just characterizing them as evil enemies and then having no place at the table. this is how lobbying works and it's quite effective (for better or worse).

and if you don't like what's in your food now, then maybe you should be lobbying to give the FDA stronger powers over the food supply, not less.

You are right , FDA is not going away soon. That doesn't change the fact that they represent corps not the people. What do you mean by " act like adults" .... ?
 

cabingal

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don't blame the government for their position, blame big tobacco. the fact is that the decades of lying by big tobacco is what has caused such caution from the FDA and others. Big tobacco was aware of all the dangers of smoking and kept them secret while purposely working to make cigarettes more addictive. this kind of dirty history is the basis for present issues with e-cigarettes.
big tobacco was left to police itself for decades and they failed miserable and instead took advantage of the public's gullibility (look up old cigarette ads with paid doctors promoting them) and watched people die while they raked in the profits.
i don't believe present e-cig manufacturers are the corrupt tobacco bigwigs from decades past and i don't want heavy regulation on vaping but at the same time i believe in being realistic. the FDA and the CDC are not our enemies. they protect us from adulterated foods (back in the day they used to put plaster of paris in bread to save money!), quack pharmaceuticals and outbreaks of deadly viruses. it's better to come up with ways to work with them instead of demonizing them as some evil groups who want to do nothing but make our lives miserable.

They have to power to force impossible regulations on every small e-liquid vendor without good reason. After April only the large companies like Blu may be left standing.
 

sonicdsl

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i'm not saying big tobacco is the enemy. i'm saying their dirty history is what is reflecting on how people view the new industry of e-cigs.
and groups like CASAA work with the FDA. if you go to their website it's all about information and a positive spin, it's not an angry association looking to make enemies.

I didn't say they were angry, nor that I was. I simply stated that BP funds the FDA (as well as WHO), and the FDA is not our friend, when it comes to food or e-cigs (or ST, etc...).

And, for the record, Elaine & Kristen (whom I mentioned in my original post) are on the Board at CASAA, specifically, the President & Vice President, respectively. Everything I stated is what I learned from them, Bill Godshall, Dr. Carl Phillips, Brad Rodu, Dr. Michael Siegel, and other activists. They all agree about what I stated, which is why I stated it. It wasn't just a tin-foil hat angry rant. :)

CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association

Anti-THR Lie of the Day | because cultivating the truth requires both seeding and weeding

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary

Tobacco Truth

And a couple of quotes from Rolygate, a moderator here, and one of the most respected voices in our community:

They are funded by the pharmaceutical industry, who determine the agenda followed by those orgs.

Pharma needs to protect the $100 billion annual market for drug treatments for sick smokers, and will do so at any cost. Smokers who switch to Snus or e-cigarettes drop out of their income channels [1], which will conceivably take a 50% or even 60% hit eventually, if all THR products are unrestricted.

Pharma's agenda is to have those products banned, or if that is not possible, restricted by regulations in order to reduce sales as far as is achievable (the ideal situation being near-zero sales).

If 50% of smokers switch to those products, then more than 49% of those smokers are removed from the pharma income channels. That is unacceptable to them, and they have almost unlimited funds to address the problem. Where you see a government employee or a pseudo-health organisation working against THR, you are looking at somewhere the problem was 'addressed'.


[1] There are multiple channels that add up to vast sums of money and effectively mean that smokers are one of pharma's main income sources. For example it can be easily demonstrated that in the UK, pharma earns the same as (or perhaps more than) the tobacco industry does from smoking. Such channels include:

a. The treatment drugs for sick and dying smokers, paid for through State hospitals and channels.
b. The treatment drugs for sick and dying smokers, paid for through private hospitals and insurance.
c. The private hospital trade itself, which is partly owned by pharma.
d. Other treatments for sick smokers, for example private treatments and therapies.
e. The OTC meds market for smokers' personal needs.
f. The boost to all drug sales caused by smokers needing treatments they would not otherwise need.
g. The boost to all drug sales caused by smokers needing more treatments for the usual medical conditions, made worse by smoking.
h. The NRT and psychoactive drug sales for smoking cessation. Although this is a ~$3bn global market, it is almost certainly the smallest in this list.
i. Medical insurance: does this have any feed into pharma? Everything else does, so perhaps there are income sources here too.

An attempt to distill the current US situation into a nutshell:

1. The FDA is a regulatory-captured government agency and works for the pharmaceutical industry to protect its income. Where there is a clear conflict with public health imperatives and a straight decision is required to either benefit pharma or public health, the FDA always rules for pharma. They make the rules, and the rules are made to suit pharma. Pharma wins, at any cost.

2. In the UK, the pharmaceutical industry earns at least the same from smoking as the tobacco industry does (and possibly a whisker more). I don't know what the US figures show, but it needs to be appreciated that pharma earns the same amount as tobacco does from smoking in at least one country, so the same may be true elsewhere. Indeed, my projections for the UK are that pharma will soon be earning more from smoking than the tobacco industry.

The key to this is:
1. The immense value of the drug trade for treatments for sick and dying smokers.
2. The boost to all other drug sales across the board due to smoker sickness.
3. Pharmacotherapies for smoking cessation come in at a distant 3rd place.

I have guessed at the value of the smoker treatment market as $100bn globally, although this needs to be calculated more efficiently. This is for the main part of the income channel: chemotherapy drugs, COPD drugs, cardiac drugs, vascular drugs and the other related treatments and income channels. Secondly, there are additions to this from general drug sales increases due to smoking, plus OTC meds, OTC patent meds etc. This is one of pharma's main income sources and will be protected at all costs. Pharmacotherapies for smoking cessation such as NRTs and psychoactive drugs also come into the equation, but are strictly chump change in comparison (at around $3bn - $5bn globally).

So, this battle is about the vast gravy train that smoking creates; in at least one country, pharma earns as much as the tobacco industry as a result of smoking. Globally the figures are so vast that they exceed the GDP of small countries.

3. In Sweden, they reduced smoking prevalence by 45% and it is still going down (male smoking prevalence was 17% in 2003, 8% in 2012, and still falling). So perhaps in 3 years it will be 5%. Then 3%? Compare that with the ~20%+ figure for males in comparable countries. This was achieved simply by allowing free and unhindered access to Snus, plus the ability to give true information about the risks (virtually zero). Since Snus has no statistically-demonstrable elevation of risk for any disease, it follows that a reduction of smoking prevalence of 45% by a population-level switch to Snus might be followed by a reduction in smoking-related death and disease by 44% - 45%. This is proving true in practice, with the result that Sweden has the lowest smoking-related mortality of any developed country by a wide margin. It's called the Swedish Miracle for obvious reasons: no other country has the slightest chance of achieving such a drastic reduction in smoking-related morbidity and mortality.

4. Developments in Sweden have been a disaster for pharma, as many fewer are getting sick and dying, and sales of NRTs are poor. Pharma is absolutely desperate to stop the Swedish scenario spreading elsewhere. A reduction of about 45% in pharma's income is not something they are keen on.

5. We also know that ecigs are more popular with smokers than Snus - considerably more popular in fact. This is especially true of female smokers. Access to Snus reduced smoking by 45% in Sweden, leading to a smoking prevalence of 11% averaged across male/female (8% male, 15% female approx.) at Q4 2012. Male smoking was reduced by 55% in Sweden as only around 8% of Swedish men now smoke, which is another unique feature of the Swedish situation, since in all other countries (I believe), male smoking prevalence is higher.

Because e-cigarettes are measurably more popular (two reasons: the explosive uptake which has occurred and has been many times faster per year than Snus uptake; and the outselling of ecigs vs Snus in places where both are sold, such as some areas in the USA) it seems reasonable that e-cigarettes could reduce smoking prevalence by more than that achieved in Sweden - perhaps by as much as 60%, in a country where they are fully permitted and unrestricted.

Anecdotal reports from within the community suggest a 75% - 80% success rate, but this is unlikely to be replicated in the real world because the key to all processes of this nature is effective mentoring - and we know that the majority of ecig buyers won't get any. Nevertheless, we have to assume that ecigs will outperform Snus (eventually) because to say otherwise makes no sense. Like many, or even all, questions in this area, the main variable is just the timescale; what will happen is inevitable, though no one can really estimate the time points accurately due to the number of factors.

6. Also, the US smokeless tobacco situation needs to be factored in. There is a long tradition of oral tobacco use, now being expanded by new products such as orbs, strips, dissolvables and so on. In fact the US tradition is richer than other places and certainly when compared to Europe, where everything apart from cigarettes is commonly banned or unknown in many/most places. This affects the gradual move away from cigarettes to THR products, in the US, because there is already an appreciation that there are other options. Modern smokeless tobacco products are low-risk compared to the old days, and as the public become more educated in alternatives to smoking, the US has a wider variety of options that can be used compared with other countries. Perhaps this means that although we can expect an eventual shift of about 50 - 60% of smokers to e-cigarettes in the UK (after several decades - let's make that clear), the percentage will be even higher in the US, as a combination of options is available, not just ecigs, and the population have more awareness of the alternatives.

7. Pharma is desperate to find a solution to this. They are absolutely committed to preserving the status quo at all costs. There is sufficient reason to think they pay off government staff and assorted medics to do their dirty work for them: first a propaganda assault is needed, then some juicy lies that can be repeated ad infinitum; and then the bought & paid for government regulator can claim there is some justification for restricting access to ecigs. Remember that pharma eventually stands to lose a cool $60bn globally per year if ecigs are freely available everywhere (i.e. if an eventual global 60% switch to THR, Tobacco Harm Reduction, takes place); I haven't worked out how much they will lose in the US if a 50% switch to ecigs and Snus occurs but you can see that it will eventually be tens of billions of dollars.

They are sure to pass that pain on to their pals in the FDA. The gravy train needs to be protected, and it will be, at all cost.

8. The FDA thought it was on solid ground when it tried to ban ecigs back in 2010, but got a bloody nose in court. Lies and propaganda work well in the media but the courts tend to require some sort of evidence.

9. The FDA can't give up just because Plan A failed. They have to go back and try again. Plan B will be to gradually apply more and more of the tobacco legislation to e-cigarettes. If they fully succeed (which is unlikely) then effectively ecigs will be banned and will have to go to the black market to survive.

As stated, this is unlikely. However there is a very strong likelihood they will manage to get some sort of 'light touch' or 'sensible' regs in place to 'ensure the safety of consumers'. Such regulations, once the legal framework is in place to apply them, will get stricter and stricter every year, with the intention of strangling the life out of the e-cigarette market. This method is well-known and called stealth regulations or the backdoor approach.

10. It is likely to be some considerable time before any of this affects consumers. There will be an almighty row if/when the FDA start down this road, because there are now around 3 million e-cigarette users in the USA, in other words about 6% of the 47 million smokers have switched. These would basically be forced back to smoking (or to the black market), and there are probably too many vapers now to push through draconian regulations to benefit pharma and their pals. Nevertheless we have a fight on our hands, make no mistake.

11. The longer we can extend this process, the better. The more of us there are, the more it becomes a voting issue - and that makes them listen up. The politicians are happy to let the FDA get on with it and fill their boots, and some of them no doubt join the FDA senior management at the trough. But when votes come into the equation - then they wake up. We have 6% of smokers now but need a lot more. At some stage we'll reach 25% without a shadow of a doubt - the question is simply when, not if. Certainly by 2025, and maybe even by 2020. At that point we will have too much clout to ignore.

12. This is a long road with a lot of battles to be fought. I am in no doubt whatsoever that all these issues will have been resolved in 20 or 30 years' time, as you can only suppress the truth, or maintain a prohibition, for a finite length of time. The problem lies between now and then...


What is our campaigning goal?
So to answer your basic question: are we trying to influence the FDA? The answer is that they work for the opposition, so this is a lost cause. In any case you'd have to find some way of matching their price dollar for dollar plus a bit, which is unlikely.

The same goes for some of the political processes involved: there are such huge sums of money involved that it is extremely naive to think that everyone can be persuaded by the health issues; these are probably irrelevant when smoking generates income streams worth hundreds of billions of dollars, and vaping (and other Tobacco Harm Reduction, THR, solutions) will cut all of that by 25%, then 50%, then maybe even 60% in time.

I'm not sure why people can't see that this is the core issue.

Our job is instead is (1) to convince everyone else that ecigs are the way to go - i.e. that THR is the best solution we have - and especially those who have power channels that bypass the FDA; and (2) expand vaping so it can't be swept under the carpet.

The key issue will always be: how to make the saving of life due to public health advances in the smoking area more important than the power and influence of people earning tens of billions of dollars from smoking, who obviously need to preserve the status quo. If you know the answer to that question then let's hear it...

How to go about point #1 is the current debate, and it probably always will be - how to locate friends and work efficiently. As far as #2 goes it's a done deal, because once the genie is out of the bottle you can't put it back; at some point there will be 50% of the current smoking prevalence in the USA as half of smokers will inevitably switch to ecigs, US smokeless products and Snus. Part of our job is how to ensure that process goes as smoothly and quickly as possible, without involvement of a black market at some stage.

The sooner we reach 25% of smokers the better, so vape proud and pay it forward.

Hope this helps! :)
 
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