NYT: New Calculus on Smoking, It’s Health Gained vs. Pleasure Lost

[Anjaffm]

I wandered over there and nosed around a bit to see what the fuss was all about. At the bottom of a locked thread about an e-cigarette study I found this:

This thread was locked because we have asked members not to post anything related to the pros or cons of ecigs unless published by the FDA, WHO, or SG.

Eww they only allow sharing information on e-cigs if it's government endorsed. I shall never return.

Hahahahahahaha!

Do not share the truth - share only government-approved propaganda
Welcome to the Soviet Union, eh?
I would say that such a forum is a waste of time. Let them wallow in their misery and their lies. Not our problem

 

[rothenbj]

Anj, quite true. I understand what happens when a people accept only what they are told by authorities.

 

[bigdancehawk]

I wandered over there and nosed around a bit to see what the fuss was all about. At the bottom of a locked thread about an e-cigarette study I found this:

This thread was locked because we have asked members not to post anything related to the pros or cons of ecigs unless published by the FDA, WHO, or SG.

Eww they only allow sharing information on e-cigs if it's government endorsed. I shall never return.

Stanton Glantz?

 

[DrMA]

That's not a forum. It's an ANTZ nest.

 

[dragonpuff]

Stanton Glantz?

Ha ha I believe SG = Surgeon General in this case

 

[Anjaffm]

Ha ha I believe SG = Surgeon General in this case

hehehe They might just say the same in this case

 

[AndriaD]

I was always able to tolerate (by force of will) the initial acute misery of quitting, even held out for a year once; what always yanked me back was the "symptoms" that just don't go away.
I was just always raw and reactive, month after month, waiting and waiting for that to pass - like permanent super-severe PMS more than any single, diagnosable, coherent syndrome for me. And just not functioning well - I'm usually pretty steady and sharp and focused on the job, but with no nicotine I'm easily flummoxed and thrown off balance.

Every time I went back to cigarettes it was after some particularly awful and stressed out day, just couldn't hack it any more, and it was always just such a "phew" thing - better within a few hours, ahhhh. Except I didn't want the crap in my lungs, so it was always so sad and discouraging, too. Forty+ years of that crappy struggle, mostly spent smoking. Then along came vaping, miracle. Same story for SO many.

I don't want to hear anything about my "happiness" from anyone who'd come NEAR my right to vape.

Quantifying and engineering my "happiness" in order to control my life is nobody's business.

I wish I could like this post 10,000 times. I've struggled with depression and anxiety my entire life, even as a smoker -- so it's no wonder at all that I was never able to stay quit from cigarettes for more than a week, using the patch -- once lasted 3 months "cold turkey" and was miserable EVERY MINUTE -- even sleeping, the cravings followed me into my dreams! -- so now that I've found vaping? They will PLAY HELL trying to get vaping away from me!

I don't really care what they finally TRY to do about vaping -- I've got a mech along with all my electronic mods; I've got several rebuildables; I've got nicotine in the freezer, lots of Pg (and more on the way!) and VG -- I will stop vaping IF AND WHEN *I* decide to quit! Not when some idiot bureaucrats decide!!! I've become accustomed to the "black market" for that "other stuff" since the gov't is so damn .... about it, so I can damn well use the same market for vaping stuff, if necessary.

Andria

 

[Anjaffm]

@AndriaD:

Big hug to you, dear.
And it is always interesting how the press publishes so many things about depression when a famous person commits suicide.
Then they call it understandable, very widespread, nothing to be ashamed of... etc etc.
Yeah, when a famous person commits suicide... But the many non-famous people who suffer from this kind of ailment, they are unseen... And many of them take great care not to be recognized. They are still alive, you know.... and they have to go on living... somehow...
And yes, nicotine helps. Helps against so-called "emotional and cognitive deficits", as in "not functioning like a machine".

I don't really care what they finally TRY to do about vaping -- I've got a mech along with all my electronic mods; I've got several rebuildables; I've got nicotine in the freezer, lots of Pg (and more on the way!) and VG -- I will stop vaping IF AND WHEN *I* decide to quit! Not when some idiot bureaucrats decide!!!

Same here, dear.
And I would have no qualms about purchasing my supplies on the black market once my ample stock runs out.
As a fellow vaper once said on Twitter: "It is a shame that people have to go to the black market in order to live healthier lives".
But if we have to do that, many of us will.

What are they gonna do? Feed, house and clothe me at taxpayers expense for the victimless crime of purchasing liquid containing nicotine? While tobacco cigarettes containing nicotine are freely available on every street corner? While gums, lozenges and other junk containing nicotine are also freely available to purchase?

I'd like to see them try. In Europe, we would just need one court case to blow this whole thing wide open.

 

[AndriaD]

@AndriaD:

Big hug to you, dear.
And it is always interesting how the press publishes so many things about depression when a famous person commits suicide.
Then they call it understandable, very widespread, nothing to be ashamed of... etc etc.
Yeah, when a famous person commits suicide... But the many non-famous people who suffer from this kind of ailment, they are unseen... And many of them take great care not to be recognized. They are still alive, you know.... and they have to go on living... somehow...
And yes, nicotine helps. Helps against so-called "emotional and cognitive deficits", as in "not functioning like a machine".



Same here, dear.
And I would have no qualms about purchasing my supplies on the black market once my ample stock runs out.
As a fellow vaper once said on Twitter: "It is a shame that people have to go to the black market in order to live healthier lives".
But if we have to do that, many of us will.

What are they gonna do? Feed, house and clothe me at taxpayers expense for the victimless crime of purchasing liquid containing nicotine? While tobacco cigarettes containing nicotine are freely available on every street corner? While gums, lozenges and other junk containing nicotine are also freely available to purchase?

I'd like to see them try. In Europe, we would just need one court case to blow this whole thing wide open.

I think it's neat that so many non-Americans have submitted comments to the FDA; I wish it was possible for non-EU inhabitants to sign that EFVI -- I looked it up, but they only want your signature if you actually live in the EU. Smoking is a world-wide problem, and it appears that vaping is a world-wide phenomenon, and meeting world-wide resistance. They (the "Powers That Be") are trying to divide and conquer us -- shouldn't the pro-vapers support more unity in our efforts to fight back????

Maybe we just need to create our OWN sovereign state -- The Vaper Union! No ANTZ allowed! And to Stanton GlANTZ -- death on sight!!!


Andria

 

[Anjaffm]

I think it's neat that so many non-Americans have submitted comments to the FDA; I wish it was possible for non-EU inhabitants to sign that EFVI -- I looked it up, but they only want your signature if you actually live in the EU. Smoking is a world-wide problem, and it appears that vaping is a world-wide phenomenon, and meeting world-wide resistance. They (the "Powers That Be") are trying to divide and conquer us -- shouldn't the pro-vapers support more unity in our efforts to fight back????

Maybe we just need to create our OWN sovereign state -- The Vaper Union! No ANTZ allowed! And to Stanton GlANTZ -- death on sight!!!


Andria

Yes, that would be nice if you guys and gals could help us with EFVI. But alas, you have to live in Europe for that

And actually, the pro-vapers are very much united.
I see a lot of people from all over the world regularly on Twitter and in various pro-vaping Facebook groups. US news / studies / blogposts on vaping travel to - and are spread in - Europe and vice versa. And if you check the comments on pro- and anti-vaping articles in the online news, you will find vapers from all over the world commenting.
Heck, I am a member of CASAA and have made donations. Same as I am a member of IG-ED (German CASAA) and EVUN (European Vapers network).
Yes, we all have the same objective: to vape instead of smoking. And we all have the same enemies: those whose livelihoods depend on a high incidence of sickness, and who do their best to restrict / prohibit / ban our healthier alternative, in order to ensure that the high incidence of sickness continues. It is profitable, you know.

YESSSS a vaping state I could go for that. And of course, we will not tolerate enemies of that state and its people

 

[Rickajho]

I'll never forget this quote from Michelle Pfeiffer:

"I used to smoke two packs a day and I just hate being a nonsmoker... but I will never consider myself a nonsmoker because I always find smokers the most interesting people at the table."

My sister managed to quit the hard way - cold turkey. (Yay! She is still quit.) For the first two years after "quitting" she went around and begged anyone smoking to blow smoke in her face. She never made any observations regarding how interesting she thought those people really were. (We onto you Michelle P.)

 

[AndriaD]

My sister managed to quit the hard way - cold turkey. (Yay! She is still quit.) For the first two years after "quitting" she went around and begged anyone smoking to blow smoke in her face. She never made any observations regarding how interesting she thought those people really were. (We onto you Michelle P.)

My mom managed to quit, after about 3 or 4 yrs of trying, using every single NRT on the market - patch, gum, lozenges, everything. Don't think the mist was on the market then. That was over ten yrs ago, and she says when she's stressed, like paying the bills, she still yearns for a cigarette. But she won't even consider vaping -- "why would I want to start up a whole new habit when I finally got free of cigarettes?" She doesn't see that it would eliminate those yearnings; she doesn't see that it would curb her extremely destructive snacking (she's diabetic!). She sees only what she wants to see, always has been that way, and I'm afraid the ANTZ are exactly that way -- if it doesn't jive with their world-view, well it's evil, or stupid, or not to be considered -- I think the ANTZ have been taking lessons from my mom!

Andria

 

[DC2]

This post should have come with a warning. They have an e-cigarette sub-forum, but there is no useful information there. Just insufferable Puritans pontificating about the dangers of e-cigarettes and a few die-hards wondering why noobs don't stick around. I applied for membership and supposedly I was to receive a confirming e-mail within 15 minutes, but nothing has arrived and that was well over an hour ago. Too bad; I had some choice words for the Puritans.

If you gain access, make sure not to say that you are from the ECF forum.
They really, really, really hate us.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

I was always able to tolerate (by force of will) the initial acute misery of quitting, even held out for a year once; what always yanked me back was the "symptoms" that just don't go away.
I was just always raw and reactive, month after month, waiting and waiting for that to pass - like permanent super-severe PMS more than any single, diagnosable, coherent syndrome for me. And just not functioning well - I'm usually pretty steady and sharp and focused on the job, but with no nicotine I'm easily flummoxed and thrown off balance.

Every time I went back to cigarettes it was after some particularly awful and stressed out day, just couldn't hack it any more, and it was always just such a "phew" thing - better within a few hours, ahhhh. Except I didn't want the crap in my lungs, so it was always so sad and discouraging, too. Forty+ years of that crappy struggle, mostly spent smoking. Then along came vaping, miracle. Same story for SO many.

I don't want to hear anything about my "happiness" from anyone who'd come NEAR my right to vape.

Quantifying and engineering my "happiness" in order to control my life is nobody's business.

I hear you. I just came off doing the no nic thing for at least a month. Mostly just wanted to prove to myself that I could do it.To make a long story abrupt, I was actually off the nic for over two months. I'm happy I did it but I was pretty miserable, annoyed with everything, pretty depressed and didn't feel well physically at al. Went back to 3mg about a week ago and holy cow, I'm a new person. Or back to being a normal person. Happier, more active, all around feel better, isn't it a glorious 105 degree day out? Not getting any "buz" off the nic, simply feel alive again and without one foot in the grave. I smoked four fifths of my life so don't find it odd it would be a strain on the system to go without nicotine. I dropped down 1mg at a time over months so it wasn't a complete shock on my system but won't be making going to zero mistake again. Honestly, I didn't know what was wrong until vaping 3mg again.

 

[dragonpuff]

My sister managed to quit the hard way - cold turkey. (Yay! She is still quit.) For the first two years after "quitting" she went around and begged anyone smoking to blow smoke in her face. She never made any observations regarding how interesting she thought those people really were. (We onto you Michelle P.)

My mom managed to quit, after about 3 or 4 yrs of trying, using every single NRT on the market - patch, gum, lozenges, everything. Don't think the mist was on the market then. That was over ten yrs ago, and she says when she's stressed, like paying the bills, she still yearns for a cigarette. But she won't even consider vaping -- "why would I want to start up a whole new habit when I finally got free of cigarettes?" She doesn't see that it would eliminate those yearnings; she doesn't see that it would curb her extremely destructive snacking (she's diabetic!). She sees only what she wants to see, always has been that way, and I'm afraid the ANTZ are exactly that way -- if it doesn't jive with their world-view, well it's evil, or stupid, or not to be considered -- I think the ANTZ have been taking lessons from my mom!

Andria

These stories remind me of my sister... two full-time vapers in the immediate family and she still insists there's no point in switching if she can just quit. It seems to me she's still suspicious that addiction to nicotine is harmful in and of itself (thank you for that, popular opinion...). So she quits over and over, and starts up again over and over. The last time she "quit" she only smoked when she drank, and then only when she was stressed out, and now she smokes full time again... my mom keeps pushing her to use her vaporizer instead of smoking but it hasn't caught on yet

 

[dragonpuff]

I hear you. I just came off doing the no nic thing for at least a month. Mostly just wanted to prove to myself that I could do it.To make a long story abrupt, I was actually off the nic for over two months. I'm happy I did it but I was pretty miserable, annoyed with everything, pretty depressed and didn't feel well physically at al. Went back to 3mg about a week ago and holy cow, I'm a new person. Or back to being a normal person. Happier, more active, all around feel better, isn't it a glorious 105 degree day out? Not getting any "buz" off the nic, simply feel alive again and without one foot in the grave. I smoked four fifths of my life so don't find it odd it would be a strain on the system to go without nicotine. I dropped down 1mg at a time over months so it wasn't a complete shock on my system but won't be making going to zero mistake again. Honestly, I didn't know what was wrong until vaping 3mg again.

You don't know what you've got til it's gone

I know I am truly not myself at all without nicotine - I am nasty, cranky, out of focus and severely disconnected from my surroundings, etc. It is a terrible thing really

 

[Katya]

You don't know what you've got til it's gone

I know I am truly not myself at all without nicotine - I am nasty, cranky, out of focus and severely disconnected from my surroundings, etc. It is a terrible thing really

I wish our leaders and other decision makers could read some of the stories we tell here...

Mental desert... This reminded me of one of the many conversations I had here with my wonderful ECF friends, without whom I would never, ever have been able to succeed. I wasn't one of those lucky "accidental quitters." I really, really struggled for years. Please read posts 269-271 if you're interested...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cussion/228147-wta-future-14.html#post4601229

In my case, it didn't matter if I tried to quit cold turkey, with NRT products (tried them all), with Wellbutrin (that thing turned me into a raving lunatic even though it's an anti-depressant) or vaping. The symptoms were always the same: lethargy, depression, weepiness, irritation, profound sense of loss and hopelessness, inability to concentrate--mental desert.

The only thing that helped me was a combination of Swedish snus (WTA?) and vaping (hand to mouth + nic), plus occasional use of dissolvables and CigRX, and even all that is not exactly like smoking a cigarette. But it worked. And it gets better with time.

Heya Roth!

 

[Rickajho]

These stories remind me of my sister... two full-time vapers in the immediate family and she still insists there's no point in switching if she can just quit. It seems to me she's still suspicious that addiction to nicotine is harmful in and of itself (thank you for that, popular opinion...). So she quits over and over, and starts up again over and over. The last time she "quit" she only smoked when she drank, and then only when she was stressed out, and now she smokes full time again... my mom keeps pushing her to use her vaporizer instead of smoking but it hasn't caught on yet

So,. how's that newly developed drinking problem working out for her?

 

[Anjaffm]

These stories remind me of my sister... two full-time vapers in the immediate family and she still insists there's no point in switching if she can just quit. It seems to me she's still suspicious that addiction to nicotine is harmful in and of itself (thank you for that, popular opinion...). So she quits over and over, and starts up again over and over. The last time she "quit" she only smoked when she drank, and then only when she was stressed out, and now she smokes full time again... my mom keeps pushing her to use her vaporizer instead of smoking but it hasn't caught on yet

Let me get this straight:
The lady is a smoker, i.e. she inhales tobacco smoke. Which contains nicotine plus a lot of harmful substances.
People smoke for nicotine but they die from the tar. (Professor Michael Russell, 1976)
Now, she considers consuming nicotine harmful - even if it is consumed without the tar and the other harmful substances in tobacco smoke.
Thus, she prefers to smoke on and off, and to consume the nicotine with the tar and the other harmful substances in tobacco smoke when she does consume it.
Which she frequently does. And now does full time again.

Now, I am not going to say what I think of this. After all, the lady is your sister
But I do agree: "thank you for that, popular opinion..." This is precisely what the ANTZ are trying to achieve: continued smoking. After all, according to those who make their money off the smoking gravy train: "nicotine is oh-so-harmful if consumed by itself. So you might as well smoke"

Uhm....

Say, would using an e-cig "once in a while" be an option?

/edit:
Quote from the a.m. source:

In 1976 Professor Michael Russell wrote: “People smoke for nicotine but they die from the tar.”
Indeed, the harm from smoking is caused primarily through the toxins produced by the burning of
tobacco. By contrast, non-tobacco, non-smoked nicotine products, although addictive, are considerably
less harmful.
Electronic cigarettes consequently represent a safer alternative to cigarettes for smokers who are
unable or unwilling to stop using nicotine.

.....

Most of the diseases associated with smoking are caused by inhaling smoke which contains
thousands of toxic chemicals. By contrast, nicotine is relatively safe. Electronic cigarettes, which
deliver nicotine without the harmful toxins found in tobacco smoke, are a safer alternative to smoking.

And this source is not an e-cig publication.
Instead, it is ASH UK, the Action on Smoking and Health.
Is is one of the few public health organizations who managed to get their heads out of their backsides and now embrace harm reduction.

 

[Katya]

People smoke for nicotine but they die from the tar. (Professor Michael Russell, 1976)

"If we could get all of those people [who can't or won’t quit smoking conventional cigarettes] to completely switch all of their cigarettes to the non-combustible products that would be good for public health."

"It is not the nicotine that kills half of all long-term cigarette smokers. The nicotine creates and sustains the addictions, but it's not the nicotine that kills people."
--Mitch Zeller

Alas, it still looks like smoking. And tastes good. Ergo, we need to ban it.