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Once Saved, Always Saved? NO.

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blondeambition3

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Right, Christians... born again through the saving grace of God through Christ, cannot become Apostate. Salvation cannot be "lost" or "given back". If you believe in the possibility of Christian apostacy then you believe in the possibility that Christians can loose their salvation.

I do not as it is not what I see taught in scripture in light of context.



:thumbs: Jason - John 10:28 confirms this for me; "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand".

and

Phillipians 1:6 - "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:"

Because I 'love' God, I keep my mind & heart stayed on Him and obey His commandments. Not because I 'have' to, but because I 'want' to. This is a (condition) position of choice, but these scriptures (among others) hold a 'promise' that God will 'complete' what 'He' has begun.. and that is the 'work' He begins in each of us at the moment of salvation.
 

Southern Gent

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This is a (condition) position of choice,

Absolutely. It is a work because you are saved and not to be saved.
Now here is the question: Let's say one starts out with "this position of choice" and does very well at growing in Christ. Now let's say this same one has now decided to not maintain "this position of choice". Let's also say that this one has said in their heart that they prefer the sins of the world over God's salvation. Are they forced against their will into salvation because they were once saved?
 

blondeambition3

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This is a (condition) position of choice,

Absolutely. It is a work because you are saved and not to be saved.
Now here is the question: Let's say one starts out with "this position of choice" and does very well at growing in Christ. Now let's say this same one has now decided to not maintain "this position of choice". Let's also say that this one has said in their heart that they prefer the sins of the world over God's salvation. Are they forced against their will into salvation because they were once saved?

Excellent point SG... no, I don't believe they are. We 'choose' God's grace but I also believe we can throw that grace back in God's face. I can't understand why anyone would do this after experiencing Him, but it is always 'our' choice. Scripture gives me confidence that if we 'abide' in Him He will 'abide' in us... then is the 'work' he began able to come to completion. Relationship (to me at least) is always two sided... not a one-way street. (JMHO) :)
 

Southern Gent

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Excellent point SG... no, I don't believe they are. We 'choose' God's grace but I also believe we can throw that grace back in God's face. I can't understand why anyone would do this after experiencing Him, but it is always 'our' choice. Scripture gives me confidence that if we 'abide' in Him He will 'abide' in us... then is the 'work' he began able to come to completion. Relationship (to me at least) is always two sided... not a one-way street. (JMHO) :)

Amen and Amen!!! If God would not force us into salvation against our will then we must deal with the very real chance of apostasy.
 

Saintscruiser

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Well, to me, this mind set puts Jesus in the 'Indian giver' department. You are basing salvation on the 'power' of man, instead of the Power of God. This goes back to the discussion on the seeds landing on different soils and thorns. Judas was not saved. He was caught up in the moment.....seeds falling on shallow soil. The sad part, is that Jesus died for Judas' sins too.

The easiest way I know of explaining is that Jesus, Himself stated, "I never knew you." It doesn't say, "Well, I knew you in 1968, but then you left, but came back in 1980 for a few years," etc. Never means never. Otherwise, that makes Jesus a liar, and I advise you to take caution in that thinking.

One other point I'd like to say. Jesus says to the Father, "I've not lost one You have given Me." "I have you written in the palm of My hand." Now, you are in the palm of Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Now who can pluck you out? Not even you! Who is stronger than the Trinity......you? Well no. satan, the twerp isn't that strong. Plus, salvation has nothing to do with works. I've been upset with the Lord before and even told Him that I just didn't want to talk to Him on a particular day. My heart hurt too much. HE UNDERSTOOD. He didn't zap me. No lightning bolts struck me.

I did a study on The Book of Life. From what was revealed to me, everyone's name is written in the Book upon birth. If you die without knowing Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, your name is blotted out of the Book. If your name is not found in the Book of Life at the Great White Throne Judgement, the judgement for the unsaved, it's too late. Then when it's all said and done, the Book turns into The Lamb's Book of Life, which is only mentioned once in the Bible and that's in the Book of Revelation.
 

Southern Gent

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Would you agree that maintaining a relationship (any relationship) is work? Would you agree that said relationship is 2 sided?
If the the relationship is "one sided" is there really a relationship? If not, we have a great many who "think" they are saved who will hear our Lord say "I never knew you". In other words, Jesus is saying "I never had a relationship with you".

If apostasy is not real then we have an issue of salvation. To say that one was never saved from the beginning? Oh but for 10 years they were faithful, wonderful, God loving, people loving, they were your brother or sister......we either don't know/understand/recognize salvation or apostasy is real.
 

Saintscruiser

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Of course a relationship is 2 sided, but is not a requirement for salvation. The relationship comes afterwards. There are going to be people in Heaven that will blow your mind. They get saved, but never mature. They stay a 'baby Christian.' This group is happy on milk only. I want meat and potatoes. Then, there will not be people in Heaven that you just knew were saved, but weren't. They'll talk the talk and attempt to walk the walk, but can't since they never really accepted Jesus as their Savior. They are good in their deceptions.... satan has them snowed. Back to the parable of the seeds.:)
 

Jason_in_nc

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Those who make a "decision" for Christ do so with a "head knowledge" of him. They can just as easily "decide" to turn away. Those people are not "saved".

Salvation is a matter of the heart. It is a life-changing event. Scripture is clear that those who are saved are changed from the old man to the new, predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. There's no caveat of "unless they change their minds".

There is nothing in scripture that says you're saved for as long as you want to be. Blonde posted a couple good verses. It is GOD that does the saving, likewise it is God who does the keeping.
 

Southern Gent

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For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. .For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

For if, after they have escaped: had obeyed the gospel/accepted Christ
Knowledge:better, "in a full knowledge." Peter warns us that some of those who had once enjoyed the blessedness of that sacred knowledge had been entangled in sin and fallen from grace.
Are again entangled:- entangled as braided hair. One cannot "again" become entangled in something IF he has never escaped!
The later end is worse for them. These people will experience "sorer punishment" than a person who never heard the gospel because salvation was once theirs. Cf: Mt 11:20-24; Lk 11:24-26; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31.
Worse: more severe. The saddest people in eternity will be those who ALMOST made it to heaven.
Not to have known: better, "not to have fully known." This emphasized the fact that these teachers had enjoyed a clear conception of the principles of Christianity which they had now repudiated. Their punishment will now be far greater than it would have been if they had never known the truth.
The way of righteousness: another name for the gospel.
The holy commandment: the whole Christian system. Cf: 1 Cor 10:1-12; Heb 3:12-18; 6:6; 10:26,38,39; Jude 4-6.

The dog is a scavenger and the hog is regarded as an abomination. These people under consideration had escaped the defilements of the world but now have returned to the stench of sin.

John 10:28--The result of hearing and following is eternal life - cf. 10:10.
-- "Never perish" based on the fact that they continue to hear and follow - Jn 3:16.
-- "No one is able to snatch” (ouk harpasei). Cf. v. 12 - as long as they enter the door
and remain inside. Cf. 6:6 - some stopped following
-- “No one shall snatch them out of my hand.” This indicates the shepherd takes care
of the sheep. It is not saying that the sheep cannot wander away.

Philippians 1:6 is not in context and notice also that Paul speaks of their continuing "fellowship".
 
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blondeambition3

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Can Christians Lose Their Salvation?

again, no point in me typing what someone else already has.


♥ These are beautiful verses that I cherish ♥

John 5:24: ‘‘Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that hears My word, and believes on Him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life.’’ This ‘passage’ is a one way street and carries no threat of reversal.

John 10:27-28: ‘‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and [firstly] they shall never perish, [secondly] neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.’’ Some make an attempt to circumvent the clarity of eternal security as taught in this verse by saying that while no other man is able, a Christian can pluck himself out of the Father’s hand! Actually, the word ‘man’ is an italicised supplied word. The verse is simply teaching the no foe or force of any kind can ever sever the true believer from Christ.

Eph 4:30: ‘‘And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.’’ The seal of ownership upon every believer is guaranteed to continue right through to the resurrection and beyond.

Phil 1:6: ‘‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.’’ God has promised to see Christians through to the day of Christ’s return.

II Tim 1:12: ‘‘I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.’’ If salvation depended on individuals, each one would have perished long ago. Thank God He is able to keep without losing even one weak believer.
 

Southern Gent

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6. ‘‘For if after they have escaped...they are again entangled...the latter end is worse with them than the beginning’’ (2 Peter 2:20-22)

Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’. Believers are sheep (1 Pet 5:2), but here Peter is speaking of dogs and pigs (v22). They had a head-knowledge of the truth but had not truly repented. Finally, after an outward association with Christianity, they drifted back to the very depths of worldly pollution from which they had ‘escaped’. QUOTE FROM ARTICLE

Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’
The whole discussion is apostasy. No one said anything about "backsliding"
It's entertaining that one would use the word "apostasy" and say it is something contained within the scripture and offer the advice that said apostasy doesn't exist.

How can one become entangled AGAIN if they never escaped?
 
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Jason_in_nc

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Critical Issues Commentary

Another good commentary on Christian Apostacy

Position One: True Christians Do Apostatize

The first of these possibilities is the least attractive. Though the language in Hebrew 6:4-8 is very vivid and concrete, especially in the NASB translation, it is not clear that the author had in mind any of his readers. The author of Hebrews repeatedly gave stern warnings coupled with assurance that his readers had not already fallen. For example, after the extended warning of falling into unbelief and failing to enter God's rest in chapters 3 & 4, the author concludes: "Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience" (Hebrews 4:11). The warning was to motivate, not condemn. Likewise our warning passage in Hebrews 6 is followed by this assessment of the readers' own condition: "But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way" (Hebrews 6:9). The warning in Hebrews 10:26f is just as severe but is followed by these comforting words: "But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul" (Hebrews 10:39). "We" here is the Christian community, the author included. It is clear that the writer of Hebrews did believe in persevering faith. He evidently believed the Holy Spirit's warnings would be effectual.


Position Two: Apostates Were Never Truly Regenerate

The second possibility has more to commend it and a number of Biblical commentators have adopted it.19 The strength of the view (that these were people who were part of the community of faith but not truly elect) is that the Biblical examples of apostates fall into this category. The clearest New Testament example is Judas. Judas had all of the privileges of the other disciples, had gone out with them and healed the sick and cast out demons, and had shared their many experiences in learning at the feet of the Master. Yet Judas had a demon and died in his own miserable sin. He fits into the category of people of which our Lord warns: "Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness'" (Matthew 7:22,23). These had indications of involvement with the powerful work of the Holy Spirit, yet Christ said He never knew them.

Another New Testament example is Simon Magus of Acts 8. John wrote about false teachers: "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us" (1John 2:19). This is further evidence of a class of "Christians" who had shared experiences with the larger community but were not truly regenerate. Their leaving was what ultimately showed their true condition. Furthermore, the parable of the sower and seeds (Luke 8:11-18) predicts a variety of responses to the word of God including joyful reception that eventually gives way to falling away (verse 13).

More evidence for this view is found in the Old Testament citations and allusions throughout Hebrews. The whole of Israel was the community of faith that departed from Egypt, wandered through the wilderness, and given hope of the promised land. The community as a whole consisted both of people with faith (Hebrews 11) and those who died in unbelief (Hebrews 3:19). In Romans 9, Paul distinguishes between those of Israel who were merely "children of the flesh" and those who were children of promise. Esau is an example of a fleshly child and the author of Hebrews uses him as an example of one who was unable to gain repentance (Hebrews 12:17). Similarly, 1Corinthians 10 uses the community of Israel who were all "baptized" in the cloud and the sea (verses 1-4; symbolizing baptism in the Spirit and water), yet some fell into idolatry and perished as an example and warning to the church. Sharing the experiences of the larger community and then turning from Christ to idols would result in the same tragic consequences as it did for those following Moses.

Since the visible church consists of all those who profess faith in Christ, but the invisible church consists of only those who are truly God's elect, the church always has in her midst individuals who are like Judas among the twelve. Those who hold the second view about apostasy believe that apostates always come from this category of people. In as much as they are fully participating in the community of faith, it can be said that they were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted of the powers of the world to come. Their falling away seals their damnation and serves as a warning to the rest of the flock. However, they were never truly regenerate and a part of God's elect.


Position Three: The Warning Is Always Effectual

The third option is intriguing. The warning against apostasy is the means God uses to keep His people from apostasy. What is appealing about this is that it takes the language of the text with utmost seriousness and applies it to all Christians as the author of Hebrews intended. The four participles that describe the experience of those who are warned clearly describes Christian experience. There is no reason that anyone should read these verses and think, "I am one of the elect, this does not apply to me." The more one has experienced the work of the Holy Spirit in his or her life the more sober the warning. Those who have been given much are more accountable for what they have (Luke 12:48). Therefore, the sober warning applies to true Christians.

A strong proponent of this view was Albert Barnes. He wrote, "The knowledge that apostasy would be fatal, and there could be no hope of being saved should it once occur would be a more effectual preventive of the danger than all the other means that could be used. . . . It may be added, that the means used by God to preserve his people from apostasy, have been entirely effective."20 Barnes did not believe that any true Christian ever has committed or will commit apostasy.21 God's means of keeping His elect from apostasy are many, not the least of which is the warning itself.

Some will find this position unappealing because they assume that if none of the truly regenerate will fall away, then the warning is of no real consequence. If apostasy is an impossibility, then it is meaningless and mute. However, one can make a legitimate distinction between an impossibility and what I call an unactualized theoretical possibility. Hebrews does not call apostasy impossible. What is impossible is to renew to repentance one who has committed apostasy. The idea of renouncing one's faith, denying Christ, and living a life of unmitigated sin is surely within the realm of things humanly possible. That some outward professors like Judas have already done this lends even more credibility to potential, eternal danger.

Yet if we have assurance of salvation and evidence in our lives of truly being children of God, surely it is true that we will not apostatize. But if we were to do so we can be sure that we would be facing eternal damnation with no hope of repentance. It is legitimate to introduce the possibility of something that will not happen to motivate one to avoid it. We regularly warn children about things they hopefully never do. For example we tell them that if they play on a busy freeway they will be killed. If this never happens, the warning is still valid. As long as the danger is something within the realm of things possible for humans in the world as we know it, the warning has motivational currency.

For example, consider the possibility of all life on earth being annihilated by a nuclear holocaust. Humankind has the means, we are told, to do this. Though it has never happened and many never happen, it is real enough to motivate us to avoid it. The Bible teaches that God Himself will judge the earth, so we can be assured He is not going to allow us to destroy ourselves entirely before He causes all the prophecies in the Bible to be fulfilled. Yet we would be fools not to take the nuclear threat seriously. An impossibility is different. It is something that cannot be because of the nature of things. We cannot sprout wings and fly to the moon and we cannot turn lead into gold. Known impossibilities create neither fear nor hope, they are the stuff of fantasy or irrationality. Apostasy fits into the former category. It is something that could be, but for the elect will not be. Thus it is an unactualized theoretical possibility, not an impossibility. Its possibility is as real as a nuclear holocaust.


Conclusion

Positions two and three outlined above are not mutually exclusive. It is true that people who have been a part of the visible church commit apostasy. In their case, they left us because they were not really of us, John 2:19. That God has allowed this is part of His means of warning His people. Jesus knew who Judas was and what he would do, but brought him into the twelve. The story of his wickedness has served as a warning to all who have read the gospel account. This goes for Balaam, Saul, Esau, Korah, Hymenaeus, Alexander (1Timothy 1:19,20) and all others who have likewise made shipwreck of the faith. These appeared to fit the category described by the four participles of Hebrews 6:4,5 but it turned out that they did not fully experience electing grace.

It is also true that the warning against apostasy is given to the whole visible church. It is real and has motivational currency for the truly regenerate. The warning is so powerful that it is effectual and none of those the Father has given the Son will perish. They heed the warning and flee to the grace of God which enables His people to live an overcoming life. They know that if they did blaspheme the Holy Spirit by insulting Him and recrucifying Christ, putting Him to open shame, they would be irredeemably damned. This fearful, sobering reality drives God's people back into His loving arms. This, I believe, was why the writer of Hebrews was convinced that his readers had "faith to the preserving of the soul" (Hebrews 10:39).
 

Southern Gent

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I'll ask again: Does the Bible teach against apostasy? Backsliding and apostasy are two very different things.
How can one become entangled again in something they have never been released?
The article clearly states the verse teaches apostasy and is Biblical. How in the world can we deny apostasy exists if it is Biblical?
 

Jason_in_nc

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6. ‘‘For if after they have escaped...they are again entangled...the latter end is worse with them than the beginning’’ (2 Peter 2:20-22)

Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’. Believers are sheep (1 Pet 5:2), but here Peter is speaking of dogs and pigs (v22). They had a head-knowledge of the truth but had not truly repented. Finally, after an outward association with Christianity, they drifted back to the very depths of worldly pollution from which they had ‘escaped’. QUOTE FROM ARTICLE

Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’
The whole discussion is apostasy. No one said anything about "backsliding"
It's entertaining that one would use the word "apostasy" and say it is something contained within the scripture and offer the advice that said apostasy doesn't exist.

How can one become entangled AGAIN if they never escaped?


A good commentary here as well specifically about 2 Peter
Does Hell Await Those Who Fall? - 2 Peter 2:18-22
 

Southern Gent

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A good commentary here as well specifically about 2 Peter
Does Hell Await Those Who Fall? - 2 Peter 2:18-22

Rather, Peter is simply saying that if a believer grovels in a life of sin, his life here and now will be worse than if he had never become a Christian. from article
So we can assume if some Christian is having a "tougher" time in life that they are sinful or more sinful than someone else? NO NO NO. You can not serve Satan and Jesus at the same time. Groveling in sin and being an apostate is not the same thing. We ALL grovel...that does not mean we turn away from the Lord. No..we come back and ask forgiveness. The apostate never asks..nor feels the need to ask. They have become "entangled again" and have no vision of or need for a Savior. Peter never said anything of the sort.
 

Saintscruiser

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Those who make a "decision" for Christ do so with a "head knowledge" of him. They can just as easily "decide" to turn away. Those people are not "saved".

Salvation is a matter of the heart. It is a life-changing event. Scripture is clear that those who are saved are changed from the old man to the new, predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. There's no caveat of "unless they change their minds".

There is nothing in scripture that says you're saved for as long as you want to be. Blonde posted a couple good verses. It is GOD that does the saving, likewise it is God who does the keeping.


This is the way I look at it. If a person falls away from God and stays in that condition, they were never saved in the first place. Ask me! I can tell you that I thought I was saved until I got saved. Whole different ball game. On that hot morning in August of 1985, I met Jesus....period. I have never wanted to stray. I may not be as committed on some days over others, but my faith saved me through Jesus Christ! That has never wavered....period.

Yes, I believe you can black slide......for a season. God won't give you that much time until He reels you back into the fold. If you turn your back on God, you weren't saved in the first place.....period. WHO CAN PLUCK YOU OUT OF THE HAND OF JESUS......NO ONE....NOT EVEN YOURSELF!!!:)
 

Southern Gent

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This is the way I look at it. If a person falls away from God and stays in that condition, they were never saved in the first place. Ask me! I can tell you that I thought I was saved until I got saved. Whole different ball game. On that hot morning in August of 1985, I met Jesus....period. I have never wanted to stray. I may not be as committed on some days over others, but my faith saved me through Jesus Christ! That has never wavered....period.

Yes, I believe you can black slide......for a season. God won't give you that much time until He reels you back into the fold. If you turn your back on God, you weren't saved in the first place.....period. WHO CAN PLUCK YOU OUT OF THE HAND OF JESUS......NO ONE....NOT EVEN YOURSELF!!!:)

I'll ask you the question as well: How can one become entangled "again" if they were never out of the entanglement?
 

BradSmith

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OK, so Jesus is my savior, I am as remorsefull of my sins as I can be. Is that enough? If not, someone please explain what the heck I'm doing wrong. Because as far as I can tell there isn't anything else I can do.

If some sins are unforgivable am I going to hell? I have taken the life of more than one person. Yes it was war but they were innocent.

I knew at the time that they were right in defending themselves and that I was wrong to be in their country. I also knew that I could be killed and never get home to my wife and child if I didn't kill them first.

So, honestly am I damned or what?
 
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