Once Saved, Always Saved? NO.

[LisaLisa]

I don't believe the Bible supports this popular theory. In fact, the Bible says that a name can be removed from the Book of Life! Yes, it actually says that.


(Psalms 69:28) "Let them be blotted out of the Book of the Living..."

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosover hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” (Exodus 32:33)


“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:19).


This once saved always saved theory contradicts Jesus himself who said "22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:22) and " 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

No one can take us out of our Father's hand and God is not an Indian giver but we are free to give back the gift He gave us.

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." - 1 Corinthians 9:27

"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." - Philippians 3:11-14

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." - Matthew 10:22

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matthew 24:13

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Mark 13:13

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." - John 8:31

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." - James 1:12

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." - 2 Peter 2:20-21

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." - Romans 11:17-23

 

[Southern Gent]

It is once save always saved but not unconditional. Turning away from God after knowing will cost your soul.

 

[LisaLisa]

It is once save always saved but not unconditional. Turning away from God after knowing will cost your soul.

Yes, exactly!

 

[angelique510]

I was discussing this very topic with a friend recently. I'll copy and paste a bit from the e-mail I wrote to her. Please pardon the writing style. I write less formally (proper grammar and all that) in e0mails as opposed to forum posts.)

"I had to look up "doctrine of election." I did not know it by name. We touched on it a bit Tuesday night when the Calvinism vs Arminianism topic was mentioned. I only have passing knowledge on the subject. I know I am not a Calvinist. Just because God knows what we are going to do, does not mean that we are pre-destined. He gave us free will to accept or reject His gift. To think that we each have something akin to an upward pointing arrow or a downward pointing arrow carved into our foreheads at birth is rather fatalistic, in my opinion. The belief in pre-destination would seriously interfere with the Great Commission. We are to witness to everyone with faith that they will hear and be saved, and keep witnessing. As soon as it gets difficult, we could very easily assume that the person to whom we are speaking is pre-destined for damnation and give up witnessing as futile.

On the other hand, I am not exactly of the Arminian school either. The belief in the need for continual upkeep of salvation seems to go against the verse that says (and I paraphrase) "That we are saved by faith and not by works that no one could brag" Good works and living righteously are not things you do to get saved. It is that when you are saved, you want to do good and be good - fruit of the spirit, and all that. I think Arminius was a bit confused on cause and effect. Some would say that salvation is a gift, and like any gift can be given back or otherwise discarded. While that may be true, I don't think it can apply to salvation. We all backslide to some extent because of our sin nature, or laziness, or outside influence. Being human, no relationship, even a relationship with God, can be 100% all the time. But I do not believe there is such a thing as an apostate. Once someone knows God, truly knows Him, it would be impossible to turn away from Him. If one says (by word or deed) that they have renounced God, I don't think they ever really knew Him to begin with."

When I read the thread here about "The God Gene" my first thought was "Wow - physiological evidence for the doctrine of election." I still am not quite sure where I stand on the issue. I do feel it is a bit of theological minutia and focusing on it distracts from what is really important, but it is still interesting and fun to debate if kept in its place.

Be well,
~A

 

[LisaLisa]

I was discussing this very topic with a friend recently. I'll copy and paste a bit from the e-mail I wrote to her. Please pardon the writing style. I write less formally (proper grammar and all that) in e0mails as opposed to forum posts.)

"I had to look up "doctrine of election." I did not know it by name. We touched on it a bit Tuesday night when the Calvinism vs Arminianism topic was mentioned. I only have passing knowledge on the subject. I know I am not a Calvinist. Just because God knows what we are going to do, does not mean that we are pre-destined. He gave us free will to accept or reject His gift. To think that we each have something akin to an upward pointing arrow or a downward pointing arrow carved into our foreheads at birth is rather fatalistic, in my opinion. The belief in pre-destination would seriously interfere with the Great Commission. We are to witness to everyone with faith that they will hear and be saved, and keep witnessing. As soon as it gets difficult, we could very easily assume that the person to whom we are speaking is pre-destined for damnation and give up witnessing as futile.

On the other hand, I am not exactly of the Arminian school either. The belief in the need for continual upkeep of salvation seems to go against the verse that says (and I paraphrase) "That we are saved by faith and not by works that no one could brag" Good works and living righteously are not things you do to get saved. It is that when you are saved, you want to do good and be good - fruit of the spirit, and all that. I think Arminius was a bit confused on cause and effect. Some would say that salvation is a gift, and like any gift can be given back or otherwise discarded. While that may be true, I don't think it can apply to salvation. We all backslide to some extent because of our sin nature, or laziness, or outside influence. Being human, no relationship, even a relationship with God, can be 100% all the time. But I do not believe there is such a thing as an apostate. Once someone knows God, truly knows Him, it would be impossible to turn away from Him. If one says (by word or deed) that they have renounced God, I don't think they ever really knew Him to begin with."

When I read the thread here about "The God Gene" my first thought was "Wow - physiological evidence for the doctrine of election." I still am not quite sure where I stand on the issue. I do feel it is a bit of theological minutia and focusing on it distracts from what is really important, but it is still interesting and fun to debate if kept in its place.

Be well,
~A

Ok, but what about Judas? Or others like him? People that knew the truth, accepted the truth and worshipped the true God, but later went on to reject Him completely, and some even go so far as to speak against Him and serve other gods?

 

[Southern Gent]

Calvinism & Arminianism are far from the only 2 doctrines available for interpretation. One need not adhere to either. There is grace but we should not sin more so grace would abound more. The fatality is in the language and interpretation. Living a faithful, moral life is not a work. We should do these things as a result of our salvation not to attain or maintain.

 

[blondeambition3]

Like ~A I'm on the fence. 'Conditional Salvation' somewhat undermines God's Gift of Grace, but an apostate throws salvation back in God's face... big difference. We base so much on our feelings & intellect. Feelings can be sincere, but can be sincerely wrong.
Once saved it's important to maintain the relationship with Christ (continually) not just during 'prayer closet' (breakthrough prayer) moments. If we keep ourselves in constant relationship via continual communication, meditation, thoughts, prayers, conversation, thoughts, deeds, praise, thanks, reading the word, hearing the word.... in all things, at all times.. then, and only then, I think then we can safely 'stand' on God's word that we are 'saved'. Doing this we can still 'slip up' and sin... but again, God's word assures us if 'we are quick to confess our sins He's quick to forgive them and cleanse us from all unrighteousness'. We are 'free' by the Son, but NOT free to Sin or abuse the Gift God gave, gives, continues to give... as long as we stay in 'right relationship' with Him. If we 'fear' God...that's usually a good sign we're in right relationship with Him. (Just my humble opinion.. but it is based on God's word and not my feelings... because I've learned not to trust my feelings)..

 

[blondeambition3]

Ok, but what about Judas? Or others like him? People that knew the truth, accepted the truth and worshipped the true God, but later went on to reject Him completely, and some even go so far as to speak against Him and serve other gods?

Yes, Judas was a great example of an Apostate!

 

[blondeambition3]

Calvinism & Arminianism are far from the only 2 doctrines available for interpretation. One need not adhere to either. There is grace but we should not sin more so grace would abound more. The fatality is in the language and interpretation. Living a faithful, moral life is not a work. We should do these things as a result of our salvation not to attain or maintain.

I agree with this. Living a faithful moral Life is not a 'work' when we stay in continual 'relationship'... it just becomes an increasingly effortless way of Life. Sin, while once considered 'fun' is no longer appealing. The things of God (things that please God) become 'our' pleasing things. We become transformed... truly New Creatures.

 

[Southern Gent]

Like ~A I'm on the fence. 'Conditional Salvation' somewhat undermines God's Gift of Grace, but an apostate throws salvation back in God's face... big difference. We base so much on our feelings & intellect. Feelings can be sincere, but can be sincerely wrong.
Once saved it's important to maintain the relationship with Christ (continually) not just during 'prayer closet' (breakthrough prayer) moments. If we keep ourselves in constant relationship via continual communication, meditation, thoughts, prayers, conversation, thoughts, deeds, praise, thanks, reading the word, hearing the word.... in all things, at all times.. then, and only then, I think then we can safely 'stand' on God's word that we are 'saved'. Doing this we can still 'slip up' and sin... but again, God's word assures us if 'we are quick to confess our sins He's quick to forgive them and cleanse us from all unrighteousness'. We are 'free' by the Son, but NOT free to Sin or abuse the Gift God gave, gives, continues to give... as long as we stay in 'right relationship' with Him. If we 'fear' God...that's usually a good sign we're in right relationship with Him. (Just my humble opinion.. but it is based on God's word and not my feelings... because I've learned not to trust my feelings)..

Yes. Conditional salvation? You said one must maintain relationship....this is absolutely correct. It boils down to what is "works". Living right for/to God is not a work. U Nailed this one

 

[blondeambition3]

Yes. Conditional salvation? You said one must maintain relationship....this is absolutely correct. It boils down to what is "works". Living right for/to God is not a work.

Yes, that 'is' a condition isn't it?.... I guess I said what I thought I meant....

 

[angelique510]

Judas is an example of an apostate.

Me, personally, I just can't wrap my head around leaving God once you know Him. When I saw God, I saw the greatest, biggest, most powerful, most impressive, most good thing (for lack of a better word) that I have ever seen or heard tell of. I knew instantly that it was God. I will continue to worship God as the highest and greatest thing in the universe, or see something even "gooder" (English is a weird language) than what I saw, and worship it. This leaves two logical possibilities - seeing that there is nothing greater than God, I will never see anything better. Or, if I do see something better, then what I saw wasn't really God, and there is no apostacy in abandoning it.

I've gone a bit off topic here - from salvation to apostacy. My apologies.

~A

 

[Southern Gent]

Judas is an example of an apostate.

Me, personally, I just can't wrap my head around leaving God once you know Him. When I saw God, I saw the greatest, biggest, most powerful, most impressive, most good thing (for lack of a better word) that I have ever seen or heard tell of. I knew instantly that it was God. I will continue to worship God as the highest and greatest thing in the universe, or see something even "gooder" (English is a weird language) than what I saw, and worship it. This leaves two logical possibilities - seeing that there is nothing greater than God, I will never see anything better. Or, if I do see something better, then what I saw wasn't really God, and there is no apostacy in abandoning it.

~A

Apostasy takes some "doing". It is very willful and determined. If sin is not apostasy, it takes something a bit more heinous.

 

[Jason_in_nc]

I don't think Judas was an apostate. I don't think he was ever "saved" to begin with. I disagree with the assertion of this topic. It is God who saves and God who keeps us saved. It is God who changes us and God who finishes the work he starts in our salvation. Much like Baptism, keeping his word til the end is evidence of your salvation, not a requirement for it.

It's not, "God will keep you saved as long as you keep doing stuff that makes him happy". If that is the God of the Bible then he is absolutely NO different from any other god. Just be a good person, just claim you're doing it for him instead of doing it for someone else. If that is salvation, then it IS based on your works cause if you stop working, you're a gonner!

Pfft.

 

[Southern Gent]

Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder..But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?

Will one go to heaven if their faith is dead?

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Again, like Baptism, works are evidence of salvation. You cay SAY you have faith (Judas) but unless your faith is evidenced by works.. fruit... your "faith" is dead. The point being that if you believe your house is on fire, you will get out of it. If you tell me your house is on fire, but then go lay down to take a nap, I doubt your belief.

It is NOT that your lack of action results in loss of salvation.

If your faith is real, it will result in action.

 

[Southern Gent]

SPECIAL STUDY---FAITH AND WORKS
CAN WE BE SAVED BY OUR OWN WORKS?
Eph 2:8,9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast."
2 Tim 1:8,9 - "Saved...not according to our works but according to His own purpose."
Rom 11:6 - "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace, otherwise work is no longer work."


In Rom 4:1-25, Paul is correcting a false belief that man could be saved by his own "perfect works." If a man could do a "perfect work" (one's life being that work — completely void of sin), then there would be no need for God's grace. Paul argues that God would then be indebted to that person due to their perfect life (4:4). Abraham's righteousness was "by faith," not his own "perfect work," or God would have owed Abraham a debt, and no grace would have been necessary.
But we see that grace AND faith were needed to justify him.

We have seen that we are justified by faith as a result of God's grace (unmerited favor). BUT, is it necessary to "obey God in order to receive this grace?"
1 Sam 15:22 - "Then Samuel said: Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams."
Eccl 12:13 - "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
Jn 14:15 - "If you love Me, keep my commandments."
Rom 6:17,18 - "But God be thanked that though you were the servants of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, ye became slaves of righteousness."

It is, therefore, necessary to obey God in order to receive His grace, and to become servants of righteousness!

WHY ARE WE GOD'S SERVANTS; WHAT IS OUR PURPOSE?
Eph 2:10 - "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, [What kind of works; our own?...No] which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Notice that these are not our own works, but the works that God Himself prepared for us to do.
Compare: Eph 2:8,9; 2 Tim 1:8,9; Rom 11:6; 4:4,5.

WHAT ARE THESE WORKS WHICH THESE VERSES REFER TO?
1 Thess 1:3 - "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love..."
Heb 6:10 - "For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love."
God desires all to do the same thing - v. 11.
Be not slothful - v. 12.
Gal 5:6 - "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."
Rom 16:26 - "But now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith."
We can see by these passages that faith is supposed to do something.

CAN WE RECEIVE THE GRACE OF GOD IN VAIN?
2 Cor 6:1 - "We then as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain."
In 1 Cor 15:10 Paul said he had not received the grace of God in vain — "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
It should be noted here that the grace of God caused Paul to labor (work), and if he would not have worked, the grace would have been in vain!
Through faith, we are justified by works:
1. Done in obedience to God's commandments,
2. Which are a result of His grace.

OTHER EXAMPLES OF FAITH WHICH LED TO WORKS WHICH LED TO PERFECT FAITH.
Noah was led by faith to build an ark - Heb 11:7.
1. He and his family would not have been saved by faith alone.
2. Without works they, as well as their faith, would have been dead.

The bronze serpent - Num 21:4-9.
Israel's belief in what God said led them to obey and to look upon the serpent.
They could have believed all day long, but without obeying and looking upon the serpent, they were without hope.

The wall of Jericho - Josh 6:1-21.
God's promise was not put into action until some works were done.
The people had to walk around the city for seven days until God would work His works.
Until that last command was obeyed, God would not cause the walls to fall.

Naaman the leper - 2 Kgs 5:1-19.
A work of faith led Naaman to obey the prophet by doing something.
He evidently believed he would be healed or he would not have sought the prophet in the first place — but that was not enough.
He scoffed at a simple command to go and dip in the Jordan river BUT, until that command was obeyed the man continued to be a leper!
Work as a result of God's commands through faith. Nothing more and nothing less is acceptable to God.

WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS (OUR OWN), BUT WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH THAT LEADS TO WORKS WHICH ARE A RESULT OF GOD'S WILL.
Faith in itself is dead.
We must do the will of God, not just be hearers only - Mt 7: 21-23; 25:35-40.
God has shown time and time again that He will not carry out a promise until conditions are met.
That condition is obedience to His word which, when obeyed, are works which He has prepared for us to walk in.
Let us not accept the grace of God in vain by NOT doing the works which He commanded.
In Rev 2:10, John writes, "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."
This was not a dead faith but was one of action and works, and became their work of faith and labor of love.

THROUGH FAITH WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY WORKS DONE IN OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S COMMANDMENTS, THROUGH WHICH HIS GRACE IS GIVEN.

 

[Southern Gent]

Again, like Baptism, works are evidence of salvation. You cay SAY you have faith (Judas) but unless your faith is evidenced by works.. fruit... your "faith" is dead. The point being that if you believe your house is on fire, you will get out of it. If you tell me your house is on fire, but then go lay down to take a nap, I doubt your belief.

It is NOT that your lack of action results in loss of salvation.

If your faith is real, it will result in action.

No one is arguing this point. The consensus is apostasy.

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Right, Christians... born again through the saving grace of God through Christ, cannot become Apostate. Salvation cannot be "lost" or "given back". If you believe in the possibility of Christian apostacy then you believe in the possibility that Christians can loose their salvation.

I do not as it is not what I see taught in scripture in light of context.

 

[Southern Gent]

Right, Christians... born again through the saving grace of God through Christ, cannot become Apostate. Salvation cannot be "lost" or "given back". If you believe in the possibility of Christian apostacy then you believe in the possibility that Christians can loose their salvation.

I do not as it is not what I see taught in scripture in light of context.

scriptures to confirm?