PEG a new ingredient, instead of PG and VG

[MissVapor]

Did PG give you throat problems? Does PEG?

I have been using 0 nic PEG-400 for awhile with NO throat problems, but recently decided to add in some PEG WITH Nicotine (12mg) just for throat hit (2 drops a day only) and all of the sudden I have a raspy, irratated throat.

I got a sore throat with PG with nicotine and VG gave me a horrible sinus infection after 3 weeks of use along with congestion..

Overall, PEG still has the least amt of side effects..although this week I've noticed really dry eyes (not sure if that is related or not)

 

[skydragon]

I asked this in another older thread but this one is a little more recent so I will try here as well. Has anyone come to any conclusions? Thanks.

 

[chadc]

Nasty.

This exactly why it annoys the HELL out of me that everybody buys juice from the same 2 or 3 or 4 factories and sticks their own name on it. I want to KNOW what I'm buying.

TELL US WHAT YOU ARE SELLING US.



That's my opinion.... anybody agree?

I AGREE! Oh Yes I agree. It is this sort of thing that will make e-ciggs illegal. I buy my liquid from Totally Wicked and Johnson Creek. Totally Wicked has ingredient list right on the bottle. That's what I wan't and demand. I'm doing the vaping thing because it is a much healthier alternative to smoking tobacco. That is not the case if they put strange "poo" in there.

 

[RandomCola]

Well I just called CVS and asked for PG and they told me they had PEG, and its the same. I know its not, PEG comes in a solid form whereas PG comes in a liquid form. Looking at the chemical compounds it may just be a small difference. I have heard nothing of it being harmful to your liver - PEG is the main ingredient in Miralax and many other medications. So thats a thought.

 

[Greendogo]

I agree, I'd like to know the exact contents of what I'm putting into my body.

However, the government is never the place to turn for this. They put up big expensive red tape. They start to regulate an industry and it will either destroy it or hurt it, which would hurt us, the consumers, even more. Asking them to regulate E-Liquid will increase the price and will stifle helpful innovation. It's the classic slippery-slope scenario.

I'm not saying that I don't want an open-door policy, but it shouldn't be mandatory. What SHOULD happen is that a PRIVATE non-governmental organization (such as CASAA) could oversee the testing of liquids (on a voluntary basis, on the part of the e-liquid makers) either through donations from supporters, from a fee charged to the companies, or both. After the e-liquid passes some kind of test the companies could be allowed to put the CASAA's (or whatever organization is overseeing the testing arrangement) label of approval on their website and on their product.

This is a far better route to go for safety than asking the FDA government thugs for help. This way we can be responsible for our own safety and we, the direct consumers of the product, can be the ones to set the requirements for safety. The seal of approval could even have grades, so you could have a better e-liquid get a "CASAA 1st Grade E-Liquid" or "CASAA Grade A E-Liquid" logo on the side of the box or on the website and the not-so healthy, but still reasonably acceptable (for some) liquids would get a 2 or a 3. By extension, companies that follow some sort of industry standard for battery protection/ventilation or other various safety features could get a grade on that. This is not to imply that whatever organization body used for this purpose (such as CASAA) would be responsible for rating the actual device's usability and quality, just the safety of liquids and devices on a voluntary basis by the companies in question (either payed for through CASAA supporters or through fees from the companies).

Personally, I really can't stand the FDA. They are an impediment to new medicines getting through testing because you have to pay so many millions of dollars for the testing even if you aren't a large enough company. In that case you'd have to either sell your idea to a larger company or partner with them and agree to share the profits. To me the FDA is just a bully government program designed by well-meaning people but high-jacked by monopolistic corporate interests and tax-hungry congressmen. But that is a political rant I'm going off on, sorry, so please just keep my original intent of this post in mind.

Anyway, what do you guys think about establishing an independent safety agency for this burgeoning new industry? Does anyone know if the CASAA or ECA have thought about doing something like this?

 

[mrjaguar]

PEG is Radiator Fluid
NOT GOOD

hmm, I was under the assumption that radiator fluid was diethelyne glycol.


now I understand the want to know what we're putting into our bodies, but come on.. we smoked analog cigs for how many years?? how many of you actually KNOW whats in real cigarette smoke? I know it's something like 4000 other chemicals. come on.. do you actually know whats in your food? in your candy? it's good to be informed, but sometimes it's just not feasible to know what we are ingesting.. if you want to know whats in what because youre allergic, then cool. I like to know for quality and flavors sake.. I don't like the dekang flavors much, so I try to avoid those flavors.
ok.. nuff blabbing from me.

 

[candre23]

They put water in antifreeze too. Does that mean you shouldn't drink it?

Honestly, I don't know any better than anybody else here whether or not PEG is safe. Of the three options, the only one that has been tested safe for inhalation is PG. It's been used in asthma inhalers and fog machines for decades, so if there was a serious problem with it, we'd know by now. The key point is that just because a chemical X is used in product Y and product Y is dangerous, it doesn't necessarily mean that chemical X is dangerous.

Maybe PEG and VG are just as safe as PG. The only way to know for sure is to either wait a few decades and see if vapers' heads start imploding from using it. That, or a series of peer-reviewed large-scale medical studies of the sort that new drugs go through. Even that would take a few years and several million (probably tens of millions of) dollars. Why do you think drug companies charge an arm and a leg for chemicals that cost only a few pennies to actually manufacture? Drug studies are expensive, but every new drug has to go through them. I'm all for e-juice going through these studies, since it's pretty obvious that PG at least will pass. The problem is, who's going to pay for it?

 

[PVPuff&Stuff]

Here you go - challenge to resellers. TELL US WHAT YOU ARE SELLING US.

Repeat sales come from service, quality, and prices.... that's the magic formula.

Not by having the "coolest" name on your "top secret" juice. That's just wrong.

That's my opinion.... anybody agree?

Challenge accepted.

All the hardware offered on my site is made by Joye. I've had the opportunity to buy others, and have passed.

All the liquid offered on my site is made by Dekang. Also had the opportunity to buy liquid labeled as Dekang for a lot cheaper. Passed. The way I look at it may be pretty simplistic, but it should fit. Dekang is the largest manufacturer of e-liquid on the planet. They have the most to lose if their product is found dangerous. I sent a message to my contact to ask her specifically if there was PEG in Dekang liquid. Last time I asked her, I was purchasing PG liquid. I don't expect that will change, but I'll update if it does.

In addition, Dekang released a declaration stating that their liquid was not one of the ones used during the FDA "testing".

I don't alter any of these products in any way. They are sent to you in the same condition I get them. No bathtub lab at Valley Vapor.

Dave

 

[Rocketman]

Dave,
don't you think it would be OK to buy DeKang juice, and the empty bottles and remix and sell online if the bathtub was clean? And most of the other ingredients (99% of them) were pure?


Rocket
(and of course I am being factitious, glad you passed)

 

[matt_2250]

Here's some info on inhaling glycols...

3w's.ultratecfx.com/approvals/PDF/cohen.pdf

It's dated 1997 btw.

Our review of available information has led us to recommend, pending further investigation, the following levels as interim or working limits. The concentrations are believed to represent average airborne concentrations to which nearly all healthy individuals may be exposed without adverse health effects, either in the short term or long term. The concentrations are also believed to be readily achievable in theatrical productions without compromising the intended aesthetic goal.

Glycol Recommended Limit
Triethylene glycol 10 mg/m3
Diethylene glycol 10 mg/m3
Monopropylene glycol 10 mg/m3
Dipropylene glycol 10 mg/m3
Glycerin 10 mg/m3
1,2- and 1,3-Butanediols 10 mg/m3
1,4-Butanediol 1 mg/m3
2,3-Butanediol 5 mg/m3

All recommended limits are proposed as 8-hour time-weighed averages for the chemical in either the vapor or aerosol state. The abbreviation mg/m3 denotes milligrams of the chemical per cubic meter of air.

My analysis of this... and somebody point out my mistakes please goes like this...

volLiquid = 0.6mL
numInhales = 180
liquidPerInhale = 0.6mL / 180 = 0.034mL
inhaleVol = 3L
glycolConcentration = 0.034mL / 3L = 0.000034L / 3L = 0.0113mL/L

Since 1L = 0.001m3, we're getting 11.3mL of liquid / m3....
I have no idea how much the liquid weighs per mL, I'll just assume its the same as water. Also I'm assuming the liquid is 100% glycol too.

mgGlycolPerML = 1

So... volLiquid / numInhales / inhaleVol * 1000 * mgPerML = 11.3mg / m3

Of course, if glycol is 50% heavier than air, we're looking at nearly about 17mg/m3...


Anyway, hope thats of interest (and not completely wrong lol)

Other References

3w's.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes
3w's.bestecig.com/products.asp?bid=9&sid=36

 

[Asha Vahishta]

Here is another way to run the numbers

From the MSDS the TWA is 10mg/m³ which means that OSHA (overly cautious) says that you can work 8hr/day 40hr/week in an environment which contains 10mg of PG in every m³ of air with no harmful long term effects.

average lung capacity 4.5L = 0.0045m³

10mg/m³ X 0.0045m³= .045mg of PG per inhale would be considered safe by OSHA

0.7mL of ejuice weighs 0.7g,... it seems that a KR8 cart will hold a full mL of juice...It means that each puff (assuming you can drain the cart in 155 puffs) contains 6.45mg of PG, or 140 times beyond your calculated OSHA-safe level of .045mg/per inhale.

At rest, I take roughly 15 breaths/minute = 900 per hour
While working in the PG factory, I'll guess that the factory worker is breathing at, conservatively, 17 breaths/minute = 1020 per hour
1020 X an 8-hour day = 8,160 breaths...

8,160 X OSHA threshold of .045mg/lungfull = 367mg/workday

Lets recalculate the OSHA # for a 7 day week

367mg/workday X 5 days = 1835mg/week
1835mg/week divided by 7days/week = 262mg/day

If we haven’t made any mistakes or incorrect assumptions then we could say that receiving 262mg/day will not harm you. Which is 1/4 of a Kr8 carto per day

OSHA’s TWA # is to be read as, less than X is safe. It is not to be read as, more than X will harm you. OSHA’s LD₅₀ is the, this will kill 50% of people exposed number. LD₅₀ for an 81kg person is 1600g in a single dose. Two important points to consider, OSHA is conservative with it’s numbers and I have no idea how they came up with a TWA of 10mg/m³

Crunching the numbers is fun but until someone does some real research on PV’s, it’s all just guesswork.

 

[matt_2250]

Here is another way to run the numbers

Thanks Asha Vahishta. Wish I'd read that before somewhere.

Mm, it all just guesswork, there's absolutely no substitute for thorough research when it comes to putting facts out. I was interested in whether or not we were vaping a quantity with comparable to whats considered safe. But it would appear we are vaping a quantity somewhere in the unknown bit between what has been concluded to be safe and what will kill you straight up. Awesome.

 

[Viktro D'Vaping]

Great, let's all smoke antifreeze and start $%*!!*#@ our pants! I never had to drink that garbage for a colonoscopy. I drank pure liquid magnesium citrate. Maybe it was because my doctor's name wasn't Kevorkian or Frankenstein? If they're really putting that poison in Miralax, watch that will soon be the next class action, pharmaceutical lawsuit being advertised all over television!

​

 

[AngeLsLuv]

When I got my order from RoyalSmokers I was very glad to be able to chose PG, VG or PEG...

 

[KonaNeil]

How is PEG in regard to vapor thickness and flavor? Is there any reason not to mix it with PG and/or VG? Does it need thinning like VG usually does?

I'm asking because there are distinct differences between PG and VG and many of us prefer a mix of the two. I'm wondering what if any changes PEG makes for the vaping experience.

I don't see much about PEG but just noticed that TW now has it as a choice in their Platinum Ice nic juice.

BTW: Because its only three letters, its difficult to search for PEG on the forum. Unless its put as PEG400 or PEG-400 searches come up with nothing.

 

[Ruchamah]

I have no plans to do this on a regular basis, I'm just really low on my 24mg liquid and I have 5ml of 36mg liquid that I want to dilute today.

Just go to WallyWOrld and buy some VG, do it right, no need to take unnecessary chances

 

[AngeLsLuv]

How is PEG in regard to vapor thickness and flavor? Is there any reason not to mix it with PG and/or VG? Does it need thinning like VG usually does?

I'm asking because there are distinct differences between PG and VG and many of us prefer a mix of the two. I'm wondering what if any changes PEG makes for the vaping experience.

I don't see much about PEG but just noticed that TW now has it as a choice in their Platinum Ice nic juice.

BTW: Because its only three letters, its difficult to search for PEG on the forum. Unless its put as PEG400 or PEG-400 searches come up with nothing.

VG is thicker and produces more vapor...

PG is thinner, has germicidal properties and is the most used by the companies making e-juice..

PEG is basically the same as PG, but there is a big stink over it although it is used medicinally often, and has a low toxicity... It's used to make many Laxatives, Skin Creams, and Sexual Lubricants.. Sometimes they mix it with Glycerin.. It is also used in some surgeries and medical procedures, and is used to treat Hepatitis.. So in essence, you've probaby had it and didn't know it..

I think the big bad wolf is after PEG since I've read up on it.. If you want to look it up, use the full term "Polyethylene Glycol"

If you use PG or PEG of course many on here mix it with alcohol since it helps the binding of the molecules.. Thing is that if you mix PG and VG, or PEG with VG.. The VG is where you will get more vapor compared to PG or PEG which are about the same in all aspects..

TW states that they do not use PEG at all and they think PG is safer..

 

[LostInDaJungle]

Uhmm sorry, but if they foot the bill, do you realize who will REALLY foot the bill? Their customers. If this happens, expect to pay waaayyy more for your juice. I don't think you realize how much this "approval" process costs. It's, essentially, a bribe.

So, you'd rather pay for a kidney transplant?

You can't trust the government, but nameless guys in their basements mixing up e-juice are all right by you?

 

[banjo]

PEG is Radiator Fluid
NOT GOOD

What? Where are you getting your information?

PEG 400:
PEG-400 is a glycol, like Propylene Glycol or Glycerine - it stands for "PolyEthylene Glycol", and the "400" relates to its molecular weight. Being "Poly" it can form molecular chains of different sizes, but 400 is the best consistency for vaping. It is soluble in water, acetone, alcohols, benzene, glycerin, glycols, and aromatic hydrocarbons. Not to be confused with Ethylene Glycol, which is poisonous, PEG is fully approved for pharmaceutical use and is used in a variety products like mouthwash, cosmetics and foods. PEG 400 is strongly hydrophilic.
The partition coefficient of polyethylene glycol 414 between hexane and water is 0.000015 (logP = − 4.8 ), indicating that when polyethylene glycol 414 is mixed with water and hexane, there are only 1.5 parts of polyethylene glycol 414 in the hexane layer per 100,000 parts of polyethylene glycol 414 in the water layer. TW

 

[AngeLsLuv]

What? Where are you getting your information?

PEG 400:
PEG-400 is a glycol, like Propylene Glycol or Glycerine - it stands for "PolyEthylene Glycol", and the "400" relates to its molecular weight. Being "Poly" it can form molecular chains of different sizes, but 400 is the best consistency for vaping. It is soluble in water, acetone, alcohols, benzene, glycerin, glycols, and aromatic hydrocarbons. Not to be confused with Ethylene Glycol, which is poisonous, PEG is fully approved for pharmaceutical use and is used in a variety products like mouthwash, cosmetics and foods. PEG 400 is strongly hydrophilic.
The partition coefficient of polyethylene glycol 414 between hexane and water is 0.000015 (logP = − 4.8 ), indicating that when polyethylene glycol 414 is mixed with water and hexane, there are only 1.5 parts of polyethylene glycol 414 in the hexane layer per 100,000 parts of polyethylene glycol 414 in the water layer. TW

Thankys for that, I somehow missed the email link to the reply.. doncha love how those who don't know what they are talking about are the one's who post things like that?? *LOL*