Penn State video: half right, anyway

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rolygate

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Penn State Live - Video: Electronic cigarettes may offer an alternative for smokers

Penn State health researcher Jonathan Foulds has a new video out on YouTube reporting on his e-cigarette research. Foulds is regarded in general as a progressive tobacco Control 'front runner' who is sympathetic to new ideas, although many of his colleagues no doubt regard him as a dangerous revolutionary.

In this video he describes their e-cig survey and some figures it produced: 78% of long-term e-cig users have ceased cigarettes, only 8% use a 1st-generation e-cig, and so on.

There are two important issues revealed by this film:

1. It appears that researchers do not actually read the literature, they repeat press releases and 'commonly-known facts' that aren't true:
a. Foulds repeats (and presumably his staff approved) the often-heard '4,000 chemicals in cigarette smoke' figure, but research has been available for some time, and is certainly available in the literature, that 5,300 ingredients of tobacco smoke have been identified. This is only pointed out as it reveals either lack of knowledge or a sloppy attitude to facts.

b. Also of course the old chestnut that NRTs are 'safe and effective'; but there are none at all that can be defined as both, and all that have been subject to independent research have been clearly shown as either absolutely ineffective or dangerous.

c. Plus, the usual 'we don't know much about them'. If only we didn't have those 50 or more research papers, clinical trials, in-depth reports by assorted professors, detailed chemical analyses, 70 years of data on the inhalation of the ingredients, and other assorted position papers by public health experts on e-cigarettes - then this might be true. But as it stands, a statement by a medical professional with a declared interest in the field that 'we don't know what's in them' or 'we don't know much about them' can only qualify as the most outrageous lie or extreme ignorance of the literature.

2. Medical personnel still feel the need to promote the use of treatments that don't work or are dangerous - and lie about the consequences (or are ignorant of them).

The average success rate of NRTs is about 5% (a failure rate of 95%), so describing them, on average, as 'effective' is clearly the most blatant lie. Of course, it is always possible that some medical researchers don't know this. Some NRTs have a proven failure rate of 98%. The one that works best, Chantix, with an estimated success rate of about 8% at 20 months (although this figure has never been published), is recognised as being not just dangerous, but possibly the best candidate for withdrawal from the market of any current prescription drug. There is a long list of doctors and experts who have called for its withdrawal due to the hundreds of deaths and the tens of thousands of lives it has ruined.

Just in 2010, and just in the USA, it is believed to have caused 62,500 heart attacks, several suicides, and dozens of psychotic events (e.g. violent attacks or attempted suicides). It causes a 'cardiac event' - a heart attack - for 1 in 30 patients (and one survey says a higher rate than this).

Promoting the use of Chantix, as Foulds does in the video (there are background shots of information about Chantix) is not the action of a responsible doctor - it is irresponsible, disingenuous, and absolutely breaks the primary requirement of the Hippocratic oath whatever form that may take. There is no possible way to describe this drug as safe and effective - it is clearly dangerous and all but useless compared to other options. An 8% success rate as is probably achievable by Chantix does not compare to the 78% success rate for e-cigs that Foulds himself reports. Not to mention the fact that Chantix is obviously thousands of times more dangerous, since in exactly the same timescale that e-cigs have been available in, Chantix has killed hundreds and ruined tens of thousands of lives, whereas e-cigs have killed precisely zero and there are no substantiated reports of harm.

How any doctor can stand up and say Chantix is a viable option compared to e-cigarettes is beyond comprehension. It's the same as offering someone a game of Russian Roulette with one loaded round in a magazine of 25 plus a ticket back to Calcutta, or a ticket to Hawaii with a residence permit. Not sure about you but I know which option I'd take.


So on balance this is a promising video from a TC industry* insider because it acknowledges the existence of electronic cigarettes, it correctly reports they work, and it correctly reports that people move on to 2nd- and 3rd-generation equipment. But it repeats the fallacies that we don't know much about them, and that NRTs are safe and effective. A strange mix, in the end, and something we are increasingly seeing as standard for the progressive end of the TC industry. There are very few medical personnel who have sufficient courage to just stand up and tell the truth:
e-cigarettes work and they are going to be our #1 weapon against smoking deaths

Normally, millions and millions of people using something and more joining every year, a $200m-plus global market, and already about 4% of smokers converted, would tend to point out that it works. Only medics, who think in terms of what worked 20 years ago, could deny that rather obvious conclusion.


* I describe tobacco Control as an industry because it is. It has its own agenda and saving life is not the core value. There is any amount of evidence for this.
 
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Ande

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Thank you Rolygate.

The Tobacco Control Industry simply wants what all industries want- its own continued existence, growth, success, and influence.

Success, in the modern sense of the word "industry," though, is dependent on being economically viable.

And who, pray tell, is financing the Tobacco Control Industry??

Hint: It isn't anybody who is interested in our well-being.


Best,
Ande
 

kristin

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They state
78 percent of long-term users were no longer using tobacco

yet

Penn State College of Medicine researchers suggest medical providers should continue to encourage more traditional smoking cessation methods

Use "proven methods" that are PROVEN to fail 93% of the time.

I don't get how they come to that conclusion at all.
 
Use "proven methods" that are PROVEN to fail 93% of the time.

I don't get how they come to that conclusion at all.

The "effectiveness" of NRT is proven to be 1.6% effective 20 months after treatment, that means that despite the fact that about one in five smokers has a chronic illness caused by smoking and three out of five want to quit smoking...NRT is proven to effectively ensure that nearly none of them will actually completely stop smoking for 20 months or more. E-cigs aren't proven to be anywhere near that "effective". ;)
 

mylose64

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Cigarettes contain carbon monoxide, tar and nicotine.... I'm so tired of hearing that phrase.

Carbon monoxide is NOT just in cigarettes, it's a product of burning ANYTHING.

The reason cigarettes are so bad is because it contains many carcinogens that can be directly related to cancer.

Polonium-210 and Lead-210 which is a radioactive isotope

Nitrosamine: A carcinogenic compound which appears to result primarily from the use of direct fire curing.

Benzopyrene: A carcinogenic compound which appears to arise through the burning of organic matter and is thus a seemingly unavoidable consequence of smoking anything organic.

The main reason cigarettes are so bad is not because of the tar, carbon monoxide or nicotine. It's because your literally inhaling burning organic matter.

Smoke is horrible in general, let alone from just cigarettes.

Sorry I just had to get that off my chest. I'm so tired of hearing "cigarettes contain carbon monoxide" like it's an exclusive ingredient to cigarettes....


Thats the reason why e-cigarettes work so well. They do not burn anything, there is no smoke, therefore no carcinogens such as Benzopyrene.
 

mylose64

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I just wish there would be an actually informative video that said:

Smoking cigarettes is an act of inhaling burning organic matter. During the process of inhaling you absorb carcinogens which overtime can mutate DNA. The mutations can cause uncontrollable divisions of cells and disrupts the natural life cycle of a cell. Thus causing cancer.
 

rolygate

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Now calm down, calm down. No good getting aerated about junk science my friend - it's virtually owned by tobacco control (although some global warming people have a small stake too).

So get used to it: you're going to get an entire education in facts that don't exist, incorrect procedure, non-sequitur conclusions, wrong terminology, sloppy science, strange opinions, invention, misrepresentation, obfuscation and just plain delusion. Like it or lump it :)
 

jfjardine02

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Rolygate, its therefore about time this $200m plus global market e-cig industry actually produced a single randomized parrallel group comparative trial that tells us something about the real safety and efficacy of e-cigs. I hope they work, but you have to be honest with people that right now there is an almost complete lack of solid evidence. Surveys of enthusiasts and case reports of individual successes show that something has potential....but ultimately we need solid clinical research studies...lots of them to really prove it. That simply hasnt been done for e-cigs.
 

rolygate

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Basically I agree. However there are some issues with the safety and efficacy aspects.

Safety
The only proof e-cigarettes are safe is population-level data after a minimum of 20 years. You can point out till the cows come home that there is nothing in them with the potential to cause harm, but that will not stop the lies. It doesn't matter how many papers are in the literature with a full analysis, it will not stop the propaganda. For example, it doesn't matter that people have been breathing in PG for 70 years, and they have been studied for 70 years while doing it, and that nobody has died yet. The propagandists will still claim it is dangerous, even though there is 70 years of data that says it isn't. That data is not important because the propaganda is more effective than evidence.

Even where solid, incontrovertible evidence exists after two and a half decades that a THR product is safe - such as with Snus - the lies and propaganda still continue. A Snus user has about the same risk as a non-smoker, and users have no more risk of any kind of cancer than anyone else; but you will still see reams of print that claim Snus could be harmful.

There is no way to stop the corruption that drives this process, except to remove the corruption. This doesn't seem likely, as there is too much money available to ensure that such issues are buried. Everyone has their price, and there are tens of millions of dollars available to ensure the problem goes away. Take a look at the salaries paid to directors of the astroturf groups and you will see what the problem is. If someone is paid $750,000 a year to toe the party line, do they resign because it is costing lives? The answer seems to be no - strangely enough...

Efficacy
The simple proof that e-cigarettes work is that millions and millions are using them, using them for years on end, and that large, enthusiastic communities develop around them. This wouldn't be the case if they didn't work. Although this is a fairly simple conclusion, it is not sufficient to convince the antis. Clinical trials that show they work are equally likely to be of little use. In fact it doesn't matter what proof you have of anything - the opponents are either paid to oppose e-cigs or are extremists who cannot be persuaded of the truth.

The truth, in point of fact, is irrelevant: science-based or evidence-based argument is pointless since the opponents are paid to oppose e-cigs or are idealogically opposed to them. There is no interest at all in either the science, or in the saving of life. This isn't what it's about.

Instead of investing money in proving things that are obvious, and providing evidence that will be completely ignored by paid liars, the money would be better invested in an FBI investigation of the private financial affairs of the people involved in promoting the propaganda.

Now that is a way to fix it that has some chance of success. Nothing else does.
 
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jfjardine02

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Rolygate, do I detect a hint of cynicism? (that was a joke). I'm not nearly so cynical, and I still have that science and evidence will win in the end. I'm not naive to think it is always that way, but generally its the best way to proceed. FYI...one bit of info Im not sure anyone has pointed out yet...if you look at the ingredients in the new Nicotine Mouth Spray (available in UK) they include....propylene glycol !!:laugh:
 

rothenbj

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Rolygate, its therefore about time this $200m plus global market e-cig industry actually produced a single randomized parrallel group comparative trial that tells us something about the real safety and efficacy of e-cigs. I hope they work, but you have to be honest with people that right now there is an almost complete lack of solid evidence. Surveys of enthusiasts and case reports of individual successes show that something has potential....but ultimately we need solid clinical research studies...lots of them to really prove it. That simply hasnt been done for e-cigs.

Go to the article referenced in this thread and read the comments-

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...olvable-tobacco-products-appealing-women.html

You should be better able to understand what Rolygate is saying.
 

jfjardine02

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I read it. There is a lot of nonsense in it. But it is entirely unrelated the the challenge facing e-cigs....their best hope of flourishing and making a serious dent in tobacco sales is to produce solid scientific evidence (randomized controlled trials etc)that these things help people quit smoking at least as good or better than NRT, and they do not have greater risks than NRT. If there truly is $200m in sales going on out there then the manufacturers need to realize that the cost of the research is part of the cost of doing business.
 

Paradisevap

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watched this last night and I had similar thoughts.
esp the safe and effective !
I found none of them safe and very ineffective ..... Vaping has been safe and very effective for me.


I reposted it to my FB and someone commented they where going to try chantix I suggested they google it ...... im pretty sure there reconsidering ....... people where lucky to live thru the 2 days I tried it :evil:
 

Bill Godshall

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For clarification, Jonathan Foulds (who supports smokeless tobacco for harm reduction, and who is also a drug industry funded promoter of FDA approved drugs to treat nicotine dependence) interviewed about one hundred participants at the Philly Vape Fest earlier this year, and most of the folks he interviewed were using mods and e-liquid instead of the prefilled disposable cartridge starter products.

But its my understanding that Foulds didn't inquire about the actual type of e-cigarette products that were originally used by the folks he interviewed. Perhaps someone who Foulds interviewed could elaborate.

And in his video at Penn State Live - Video: Electronic cigarettes may offer an alternative for smokers
Foulds apparently now assumes that the folks he interviewed either never used (or didn't quit smoking by using) the prefilled disposable cartridge starter brands.

He's taken that false assumption one step further by now claiming that the prefilled disposable cartridge starter brand products aren't effective for smoking cessation simply because most of the folks he interviewed had moved beyond the starter brands to using mods and e-liquid.
 

jfjardine02

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Bill, also based on the blood nicotine data from studies of those types of e-cigs...almost no nicotine delivery.....as compared with Tom Eissenbergs data on experienced users using models with greater battery power...delivering nicotine like a regular cigarette. I'm not saying the $20 gas-station e-cigs are totally useless, but I believe the improved nic delivery of ones used by most experienced users puts them in a different category. The fact is, I've not met many people who switch to gas-station e-cigs (by that I mean e-cigs that are the same size as a cigarette and dont have any enhancements to facilitate hotter, consistent vapor production) and use them daily for 6m or more. I'm sure they exist, as do a few people who persist with zero nic juice, but its clearly not the typical pattern. But lets be clear, we dont know if ANY types of e-cigs are effective for smoking cessation because there hasnt been a single controlled trial published. I happen to believe that such studies should be done, and that they should use the "better" nicotine delivery e-cigs, in order to have a better chance of being effective.
 

Bill Godshall

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jfjardine02 wrote

I'm not saying the $20 gas-station e-cigs are totally useless, but I believe the improved nic delivery of ones used by most experienced users puts them in a different category.

I agree, but it was illogical and inaccurate for Foulds to conclude and claim that the starter brand e-cigarettes are ineffective for smoking cessation simply because most folks at the Philly Vape Fest were using mods and e-liquid.

I've not met many people who switch to gas-station e-cigs (by that I mean e-cigs that are the same size as a cigarette and dont have any enhancements to facilitate hotter, consistent vapor production) and use them daily for 6m or more.

That is also my experience. But that's because most people begin using the starter brand e-cigarettes to quit smoking, and then many switch to mods and e-liquid within several months to save money, to get more flavorings, to obtain more nicotine, and/or for other reasons.

But lets be clear, we dont know if ANY types of e-cigs are effective for smoking cessation because there hasnt been a single controlled trial published.

Not so, as the first published clinical trial found e-cigarettes far more effective than NRT for smoking cessation and reducing daily cigarette consumption. Among forty participants who didn't want to quit smoking, overall daily cigarette consumption declined 80% after 24 weeks, with 22.5% remaining totally smokefree, 12.5% reducing daily cigarette consumption by at least 80%, and another 20% reducing daily cigarette consumption by at least 50%.
BioMed Central | Full text | Effect of an Electronic Nicotine Delivery Device (e-Cigarette) on Smoking Reduction and Cessation: A Prospective 6-Month Pilot Study (abstract)
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2458-11-786.pdf (full text)

Besides, clinical trials are just one of many different types of scientific and empirical evidence that should be considered. When tens of thousands of e-cigarette users claim that's how they quit smoking, I side with believing them instead of presuming that all of them are liars.

Unfortunately for public health, many folks who receive funding from drug companies believe that clinical trials are the only acceptable type of evidence (because that is what is required for FDA approval of new drugs, and that's the only type of research they conduct).

I noticed that jfjardine02 lives/works in Hershey, PA, which is where Jonathan Foulds also works. For disclosure, I grew up in Mt. Joy, which is about 15 miles southeast of Hershey, and my father received radiation treatments for lung cancer back in the 1970's at Hershey Medical Center (which is now owned by Penn State)

Does jfjardine02 know and/or work with Jonathan? And has jfjardine02 received funding from drug companies?

BTW Thanks for posting the weblink for the new nicotine spray.
 
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