PG/VG Purity & Source Disclosure

[Heathbar]

I have to satisfy the five post requirement, so there's another (2/5) of them. This post touches on an issue I'd really like to take up in the main forums.

I am finding that some vendors are unwilling to disclose their source of PG/VG. While they *claim* that their PG/VG is USP grade, I am disinclined to simply take their word for it. Anyone have some theories on why vendors are scared to disclose the sources of their alleged USP grade PG/VG? They mumble something about "trade secrets", but there should be no difference between any legitimately USP grade PG/VG, so what's going on here?

 

[Burnie]

There are different grades of USP (from what I understand), can't think of them all at the moment, but "animal grade", "food Grade", and one approved for inhalation. I think most sold are food grade. I read somewhere on ECF that there 5 grades (I think), but its late for me, so I cant remember for sure, try searching "PG purity grades" or something like that. What you buy at Tractor Supply is USP, but animal grade, and may have impurities and not be safe for vaping, but then again who knows. Sorry I can't help more.

vape On
Burnie

 

[Cloud Junky]

They may not know themselves

 

[yzer]

Glycerin USP and Propylene Glycol USP are the pharmaceutical grade products in the USA. USP products include lot numbers and expiration dates on product labels as well as the proper use of the USP initials after the product name. There are no animal grade or any other grades certified by USP standards. The USP products are also used for non-pharmaceutical purposes including animal feed and e-liquid.

E-juice providers should be using Glycerin USP and Propylene Glycol USP to prepare their products. Once the containers of the USP products are opened and mixed with other e-liquid ingredients it no longer meets USP standards and can not be called USP.

A bottle of Glycerin USP can have an expiration date of up to five years from the bottling date. Once the USP sealed product is opened and exposed to air it no longer meets USP standards and the expiration date is 12-18 months.

E-liquids are unregulated at this time. If you want someone else to make your e-juice for you and you want USP base liquids then you have to take the vendor's word for it or make your own e-liquid.

 

[Burnie]

There are no animal grade or any other grades certified by USP standards

Well you made me search for the post, by "rolygate" no less.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/277267-purity-pg-vg-peg-short-version.html

It is possible that a USP product can be either pharma grade or food grade. The USP designation only refers to a general production regime and does not cover the exact contaminants as long as the minimum standard is met. So a USP product might be considered safe for inhalation; or it might, on test, prove inadvisable to inhale.

Its a long read so I just posted a short clip of it, but there ARE different grades.

Vape On
Burnie

 

[yzer]

I disagree. USP means United States Pharmacopeia. USP products are pharmaceutical grade.

Food products meet standards established in the Food Chemicals Codex (FCC). FCC products do not meet USP standards.

The confusion arises because USP products may be substituted for FCC products because the USP standard of purity is higher. FCC products may not be substituted for USP products.

 

[MasteroftheVape]

USP is the certifying body that sets standards. Think ANSI, IEEE, ISO, or OSHA. USP sets the standards for a lot of things, such as containers, labware, medicine, IV sets, syringes, basically most things that have to do with drugs. The true USP standards for PG found here http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp_pdf/EN/USPNF/propyleneGlycol.pdf . This is the ONLY USP standard for PG. If it says for animal use then it is NOT USP. When it says "USP food grade" it usually means it was USP grade, but was further processed/bottled in a non USP facility, but rather an FCC approved one. Or animal grade would be the same thing, but processed in a non FCC facility.

On the flip side you can legally print USP on your stuff if you adhere to the standards, but the USP certifying body has not certified it, or the company/factory it was produced in.

 

[Heathbar]

If you want someone else to make your e-juice for you and you want USP base liquids then you have to take the vendor's word for it or make your own e-liquid.

Vendors can make it clear that they are using USP grade products if they want to, and you know that. Maybe you missed the obvious point, but vendors should be willing to make it clear that they are using USP grade products, and they should be willing to do so in ways that go beyond merely stating that their products are USP grade. Maybe you just believe everything you hear. Smart folks don't, especially when it comes to inhaling things.

 

[Heathbar]

They may not know themselves

This is probably most often correct. And it's scary. Sucking down liquid made by idiots who don't know what they're doing is not my idea of a good time. When said idiots are afraid to demonstrate that they are using quality products, well, you can pretty much be assured they're manufacturing ..... Some people like to suck down ..... I don't.

 

[Heathbar]

Its a long read so I just posted a short clip of it, but there ARE different grades.

We know there are different grades. But you have your facts radically wrong. Like, I suspect, many vendors who are scared to disclose their source of USP grade PG and VG. At this point, I have to say I hope the FDA steps in and forces lame vendors to be less dumb.

 

[Ca Ike]

First off your never going to get a business to disclose their source and legally they don't have to give that info to the public. All they legally have to do is disclose the ingredients and when it comes to grade certifications that has to be there as well which is why you see USP on label. Calling vendors dumb or lame just shows how much you don't know. You won't see ANY product divulge the source vendors to the general public. Thats just bad business sense but they do have to disclose that info to the governing agencies such as the health dept, FDA and the like. Most usp grade PG/VG comes from Merk, bristol-meyer Squib, Dupont or Johnson and Johnson, all of which are FDA USP certified. There are also some smaller medical supplies makers that are usp certified but they generally get their base PG from the big Pharma Co's. and wholesale it out under their labels.

Hell when I worked for Medline industries, I had to be USP certified just to handle and ship these products and let me tell you the standards are very specific right down to the package material and design as well as incoming shipment inspection practices. I have yet to find a US liquid vendor that won't at least tell me they start with USP grade bases and FDA certified flavorings. Most I think you will find , have copies of the legal notices the vendors are required to include with their products when they get these certifications.

 

[jensy]

Heathbar if you are so concerned and want to be smart on your choice of what to inhale because you want to be so safe then don't vape. Crap go outside and breathe the air and that can kill you .

I am sorry but I really do not like your tone and calling people idiots is not a good way to be. As far as the FDA or government getting involved to regulate things is just nuts. Like the government doesn't lie right. Wait , what.

 

[InTheShade]

We know there are different grades. But you have your facts radically wrong. Like, I suspect, many vendors who are scared to disclose their source of USP grade PG and VG. At this point, I have to say I hope the FDA steps in and forces lame vendors to be less dumb.

The FDA is quite strong in the meat packing and processing industries, but we still have food scares.

What makes you think that the FDA over-regulating juice manufacturing so only their friends in big pharma can afford to meet the regulations will result in a better product for vapers?

I actually agree with you to a point, this is a question every vaper should be asking and researching - but to default to FDA involvement for 'dumb' vendors is misguided in my opinion.

It seems that you have strong opinions about this - care to elaborate why?

 

[yzer]

USP is the certifying body that sets standards. Think ANSI, IEEE, ISO, or OSHA. USP sets the standards for a lot of things, such as containers, labware, medicine, IV sets, syringes, basically most things that have to do with drugs. The true USP standards for PG found here http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp_pdf/EN/USPNF/propyleneGlycol.pdf . This is the ONLY USP standard for PG. If it says for animal use then it is NOT USP. When it says "USP food grade" it usually means it was USP grade, but was further processed/bottled in a non USP facility, but rather an FCC approved one. Or animal grade would be the same thing, but processed in a non FCC facility.

On the flip side you can legally print USP on your stuff if you adhere to the standards, but the USP certifying body has not certified it, or the company/factory it was produced in.

Agreed. USP sets the standards for purity, testing protocols and packaging of pharmaceutical grade products. [FONT="]Enforcement of USP standards is the responsibility of FDA and other government authorities in the U.S. and elsewhere. USP has no role in enforcement.[/FONT]

 

[patkin]

I have no doubt that with something so basic, their sources change with availability and price. Making a false statement as to grade would open them to law suits so would feel confident taking their word for that. If I were a vendor and someone wanted to know where I bought my ingredients, I would consider them a "crack pot" and wouldn't even answer a request like that. A general request such as one to a pet food manufacturer wanting to know if any ingredients come from sources other than the USA is reasonable. Asking what companies they buy from is not. I'll go further... if you asked something like that of me, I would be more than happy to loose your business. My 2cents: If you're so worried about it then DIY.

 

[horton]

The last thing we need is the FDA over-regulating the vaping industry. If a person is so concerned about certain products to me the best thing to do is go "organic" so to speak and make your own. That way you can blame no one but yourself and the research you do in buying whatever products you use. Sorry -- "persons" are all mixed up... lousy grammer

 

[Heathbar]

First off your never going to get a business to disclose their source and legally they don't have to give that info to the public. All they legally have to do is disclose the ingredients and when it comes to grade certifications that has to be there as well which is why you see USP on label.

What one legally has to disclose and what one can disclose are two different matters. The latter has nothing to do with the former.

You won't see ANY product divulge the source vendors to the general public. Thats just bad business sense.

This is absurd nonsense.

I have yet to find a US liquid vendor that won't at least tell me they start with USP grade bases and FDA certified flavorings. Most I think you will find, have copies of the legal notices the vendors are required to include with their products when they get these certifications.

Some paperwork that provides serious evidence that their PG/VG is genuine USP grade could substitute in lieu of full source disclosure. When you have every wannabe chemist and their mother getting into this business, you have to be crazy to believe that all these people know what they are doing. That'd be the height of delusion.

Heathbar if you are so concerned and want to be smart on your choice of what to inhale because you want to be so safe then don't vape. Crap go outside and breathe the air and that can kill you.

This comment is irrelevant, and so not worth responding to.

As far as the FDA or government getting involved to regulate things is just nuts.

Cry all you want, but the FDA is about to get into the regulating business here. I, for one, will be lobbying them to force e-liquid manufacturers to prove (at least to the FDA) that their PG/VG bases are all USP grade. I'll win this round. You'll lose it. Those are the facts. Get used to them. After you calm down, you can thank people like me for keeping careless people like you safer.

What makes you think that the FDA over-regulating juice manufacturing so only their friends in big pharma can afford to meet the regulations will result in a better product for vapers?

I don't want to see "over-regulation". I do want to see kitchen cooks have to prove their PG/VG bases are the grade they are advertising them as.

I have no doubt that with something so basic, their sources change with availability and price. Making a false statement as to grade would open them to law suits so would feel confident taking their word for that.

Who do you think is checking to verify that they are using the grade they claim to be using? I suppose I can try to run some purity tests on these things. I might look into that.

I'll go further... if you asked something like that of me, I would be more than happy to loose your business. My 2cents: If you're so worried about it then DIY.

And I'd be more than happy to not patronize a .... cook. And yes, I may well wind up doing it myself. At least then I can know that it was done properly, and not manufactured by Jesse Pinkman.

 

[Ca Ike]

Heathbar, if you came up with a product, did all the work to source or build the parts, develop the build techniques and anything else needed to make a business out of it, would you want to give all that info to any Joe Blow that wanted it ? No you wouldn't because those trade secrets are what keeps you in business. If you gave out all the details of your product your effectively shooting yourself in the foot and you won't be in business long.

 

[yzer]

And yes, I may well wind up doing it myself. At least then I can know that it was done properly, and not manufactured by Jesse Pinkman.

DIY isn't that hard. Even you could do it. Incidentally, Jesse Pinkman was making an excellent product during the latter part of the series.

 

[horton]

I agree with yzer re: DIY....it's not hard to do. Download an e-juice calculator, buy some safe supplies, and off to the races we go. It's a blast and considering the damage I did smoking for longer than I want to remember, I'm not too worried about what damage I might do to myself vaping. BTW -- I thought Jesse Pinkman was a highly qualified chemist.