Pictures of serious battery failure - IMR 18650
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This can happen with any mod, cheap or expensive. Shorted atty, switch, etc. it makes no difference. I have never owned a cheap mod, yet it can happen. I think this is in a good place for new members to see. I think it's good to let one and all know what can happen.
We should be demanding protections in the mods, not relying on the protection or chemistry of the batteries. Vent holes & collapsing springs are mere illusions. They don't insure protection against short circuits. It's great that we have circuit protected & safe chemistry batteries to use, but we should be looking at the mod as well.
I think the thing to remember is all batteries are not completely safe ....
And ECF saying one is safer than the other isn't very reassuring either.
The debate will go on for years with very smart people arguing for both sides (protected/IMR)
Just remember batts are not safe .... treat them with respect.
The best thing you can do IMO is stick with a good Brand and don't cheap out to save a few bucks.
For the record I only use AW, but i have plenty of both the black protected and red IMR.
And ECF saying one is safer than the other isn't very reassuring either.
The debate will go on for years with very smart people arguing for both sides (protected/IMR)
Just remember batts are not safe .... treat them with respect.
The best thing you can do IMO is stick with a good Brand and don't cheap out to save a few bucks.
For the record I only use AW, but i have plenty of both the black protected and red IMR.
This is probably what happened. Lithium and water. Anything with lithium in it is definitely not safe chemestry.
Just to make a point...ALL Lithium Batts of any type be they lico limn lifepo protected or not have this capability...even the stick batts...It does not happen much but it does happen...
I had a friend who is a police officer...He also does RC aircraft as a hobby so he has the GOOD hobby chargers and takes care of his devices/batteries...I was out camping with him and his flashlight(the battery inside it) vented while in his hip holster...It does happen...
The battery was 2 mo old, properly charged and an Known Good brand of battery(I won't name names)...It happens not often but it does....sometimes due to an occasional unseen defect sometimes due to overcharging,sometimes due to over-discharging,and sometimes just plain dumb luck...Luckily with good batteries ans a good charging practices the chances of this happening are over a million to 1 against...
Because of this it is VERY IMPORTANT to monitor your batteries and charge them in a secure case.(fireproof box or bag) He still uses Li-Ion Batts He still carries the same brand of flashlight and batteries...
To this day though I use NiMH or NiZN because I cannot make myself do anything but stare a the meter on my charger while I am charging my 2 18650s I use for test purposes...(I have Aspergers Syndrome so this is not a normal person) I store them in a fireproof box and I now use a 75 dollar hobby charger...I have had no problems but then again I am OCD about these things and I sit there with a temp sensor sitting on the batts so go figure...lol
I had a friend who is a police officer...He also does RC aircraft as a hobby so he has the GOOD hobby chargers and takes care of his devices/batteries...I was out camping with him and his flashlight(the battery inside it) vented while in his hip holster...It does happen...
The battery was 2 mo old, properly charged and an Known Good brand of battery(I won't name names)...It happens not often but it does....sometimes due to an occasional unseen defect sometimes due to overcharging,sometimes due to over-discharging,and sometimes just plain dumb luck...Luckily with good batteries ans a good charging practices the chances of this happening are over a million to 1 against...
Because of this it is VERY IMPORTANT to monitor your batteries and charge them in a secure case.(fireproof box or bag) He still uses Li-Ion Batts He still carries the same brand of flashlight and batteries...
To this day though I use NiMH or NiZN because I cannot make myself do anything but stare a the meter on my charger while I am charging my 2 18650s I use for test purposes...(I have Aspergers Syndrome so this is not a normal person) I store them in a fireproof box and I now use a 75 dollar hobby charger...I have had no problems but then again I am OCD about these things and I sit there with a temp sensor sitting on the batts so go figure...lol
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There is some misunderstanding about this that comes down to two issues:
1. There is no such thing as a safe battery. They can all get very hot if shorted out and left like that, especially in some kind of confined space, as that will increase the heat.
2. AW batteries are safer for use in mods because they are less likely to explode, and to do that in front of your face.
I would only buy AWs for my mods now, but that does not mean I regard them as safe. There are no safe rechargeables. Maybe the battery info page needs to make that clearer - a mistreated battery is still a danger. However, as stated, some are less likely than others to blow up in your face - which was what the issue was when we decided to give advice.
And it has always been the case that any mod should have gas vents, a master off switch, and preferably some sort of dead short aka short-circuit protection. Lithium batteries are not intrinsically safe. Some are less likely than others to blow up in your face, which is mainly what the advice is about.
All rechargeable batteries need to be treated with care, they aren't really in the fridge or TV class of product where you buy it and forget about it, and don't have to worry about the item having safety issues. As far as we know, Li-Po cells are the most vulnerable, through Li-ion, then Li-FePo4, to Li-Mn as the 'safest'. But the term 'safe' is relative when referring to lithium batteries. Protected Li-ion cells are fine if the protection circuit is in perfect condition; but it may not be.
All things considered, AW cells are voted by those who know about these things as the 'safest' to put right in front of your face when fresh off charge and to pull a relatively high current through. As regards other measures of safety, i.e. leaving alone in the house when on charge, or left alone in a confined area in a device that may not have safety circuits or even the vital master on/off switch that we have been banging on about for years - well, probably no battery is safe in those circumstances. Mods need to be built with the idea that things will go wrong, with layers of protection, so that when one protection fails, another (that may well do exactly the same thing) kicks in. The idea that "You don't need Protection B because it already has Protection A" is just simply wrong, as any engineer will tell you. Things fail, and protection devices are like anything else - they fail (or don't get used due to operator error).
A mod needs gas vents, a master on/off switch, and probably some sort of protection circuitry as well. If you want to buy one without those things, it's up to you. You should recharge your batteries in a LiPo charging sack or in a vented cake tin, and only when people are in the house and awake; and you should not jam it in your pocket along with keys, coins and pens, without the master switch set to off, and then leave it unattended (and especially not have spare batteries that can contact anything metal).
An APV is just not a buy and forget device. The problem is, people think it is.
As regards giving some sort of verdict on the incident discussed here: that is impossible without more information. For example: is the case in the photos a soft carry case, or is it Eastmall's USB Battery Box? Did it have some metal cartos or tanks in there too? Does the Indulgence have a master on/off switch? And so on.
[edit]
I edited the Battery Info page to make it clearer that the safety issue under discussion on that page is the exploding in your face issue, and to make it clear that there are no safe lithium cells.
And to labor the point even more: there are no safe lithium cells. Leaving an APV with no safety features in your coat pocket, or expecting that there won't be a fire if your spare batteries short out, is unrealistic. These things have a known risk, and sensible people try to minimise the risks of them shorting out or an APV firing in a pocket or purse.
A single battery, or a pair of batteries, won't catch on fire unless they are shorted out somehow. The fault is in the situation that allowed the short-circuit to occur, not in the batteries.
1. There is no such thing as a safe battery. They can all get very hot if shorted out and left like that, especially in some kind of confined space, as that will increase the heat.
2. AW batteries are safer for use in mods because they are less likely to explode, and to do that in front of your face.
I would only buy AWs for my mods now, but that does not mean I regard them as safe. There are no safe rechargeables. Maybe the battery info page needs to make that clearer - a mistreated battery is still a danger. However, as stated, some are less likely than others to blow up in your face - which was what the issue was when we decided to give advice.
And it has always been the case that any mod should have gas vents, a master off switch, and preferably some sort of dead short aka short-circuit protection. Lithium batteries are not intrinsically safe. Some are less likely than others to blow up in your face, which is mainly what the advice is about.
All rechargeable batteries need to be treated with care, they aren't really in the fridge or TV class of product where you buy it and forget about it, and don't have to worry about the item having safety issues. As far as we know, Li-Po cells are the most vulnerable, through Li-ion, then Li-FePo4, to Li-Mn as the 'safest'. But the term 'safe' is relative when referring to lithium batteries. Protected Li-ion cells are fine if the protection circuit is in perfect condition; but it may not be.
All things considered, AW cells are voted by those who know about these things as the 'safest' to put right in front of your face when fresh off charge and to pull a relatively high current through. As regards other measures of safety, i.e. leaving alone in the house when on charge, or left alone in a confined area in a device that may not have safety circuits or even the vital master on/off switch that we have been banging on about for years - well, probably no battery is safe in those circumstances. Mods need to be built with the idea that things will go wrong, with layers of protection, so that when one protection fails, another (that may well do exactly the same thing) kicks in. The idea that "You don't need Protection B because it already has Protection A" is just simply wrong, as any engineer will tell you. Things fail, and protection devices are like anything else - they fail (or don't get used due to operator error).
A mod needs gas vents, a master on/off switch, and probably some sort of protection circuitry as well. If you want to buy one without those things, it's up to you. You should recharge your batteries in a LiPo charging sack or in a vented cake tin, and only when people are in the house and awake; and you should not jam it in your pocket along with keys, coins and pens, without the master switch set to off, and then leave it unattended (and especially not have spare batteries that can contact anything metal).
An APV is just not a buy and forget device. The problem is, people think it is.
As regards giving some sort of verdict on the incident discussed here: that is impossible without more information. For example: is the case in the photos a soft carry case, or is it Eastmall's USB Battery Box? Did it have some metal cartos or tanks in there too? Does the Indulgence have a master on/off switch? And so on.
[edit]
I edited the Battery Info page to make it clearer that the safety issue under discussion on that page is the exploding in your face issue, and to make it clear that there are no safe lithium cells.
And to labor the point even more: there are no safe lithium cells. Leaving an APV with no safety features in your coat pocket, or expecting that there won't be a fire if your spare batteries short out, is unrealistic. These things have a known risk, and sensible people try to minimise the risks of them shorting out or an APV firing in a pocket or purse.
A single battery, or a pair of batteries, won't catch on fire unless they are shorted out somehow. The fault is in the situation that allowed the short-circuit to occur, not in the batteries.
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ok so are you saying even my NiMH and NiZN can vent/explode?????!!From everything I have read all they can do is get slightly hot or leak.....and thats under Heavy abuse/shorted
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I don't know, to be honest. It seems that lithium cells are much more vulnerable but let's face it, if you think rechargeable batteries are 'safe', one day you might get a nasty surprise. A lithium cell can certainly explode with the same force as if it were made of black powder (gunpowder) - possibly more.
I don't intend to find out if that also applies to other types of cell
I don't intend to find out if that also applies to other types of cell
OK I know that all batts have their problems...I do build protections in my mods regardless of power supply...hence my first mod was beaten senseless by a careless friend and it survived...(dropped 4 times and batts reversed)and all I had to do was place on charge cable and it reset protection circuit......but I use non lithium due to the wish to avoid being scared out of my wits again or worse...Yea I know overkill but my mod still works...lol TY for an informed answer on LI batts
I have only been into this 3 months...nope 4 now...
I have only been into this 3 months...nope 4 now...
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If you think mods are bad think of the Tesla Roadster which runs off no less than 6,831 18650's. They are LiFePO4 chemistry and have a sophisticated cooling system aiming to prevent a catastrophic chain reaction if one of them overheats or blows. Still if the car was involved in a serious accident, you probably wouldn't want to be near it!
Question for Roly,
I should cut a small sheet of aluminum or tin to place underneath my Pila and WF chargers for more protection, or is just prudent in your estimation?
C.B.
I should cut a small sheet of aluminum or tin to place underneath my Pila and WF chargers for more protection, or is just prudent in your estimation?
C.B.
I've already thought of that....all my mental simulations of that were not pretty...even w the lifepo chemistry...still all I can think of is all the mods I could make with those batts....
@ cigarbabe...buy a simple locking metal box....bout 10-16 bucks ...
http://www.etsy.com/listing/74085333/vintage-metal-tackletool-box
just don't put them on something flammable....and add a padlock hasp...that keeps it closed just in case
@ cigarbabe...buy a simple locking metal box....bout 10-16 bucks ...
http://www.etsy.com/listing/74085333/vintage-metal-tackletool-box
just don't put them on something flammable....and add a padlock hasp...that keeps it closed just in case
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I've already thought of that....all my mental simulations of that were not pretty...even w the lifepo chemistry...still all I can think of is all the mods I could make with those batts....
@ cigarbabe...buy a simple locking metal box....bout 10-16 bucks I will link one in a few...
Uhmm five or six locking boxes in my case? lol!
I was under the impression from what Roly said that a metal box could hold the heat in though?
I may be wrong or misunderstood what he said.
C.B.
well six of one half dozen of the other...I go by what I have seen on flashlight forums...THEY know Batteries...best possible situation is not to use em...next best is in a shed out back in a fire proof box or on a clean metal bench...for those without a shed a fire proof box comes next then something like roly said or a small-medium lock-box on a fire proof or at least resistant surface...and don't charge unattended...
I don't suggest you go to the EXTREMES I do but then again if one of mine go I'm right there w a Fire extinguisher...lol
I also have temp sensors on my batts...if they ever do get too hot I will hit master switch on charger setup to try to avoid that
but I rarely use them...thats for mod design testing...I like to know what I make will work with anything I want...and most of what I have is salvage parts or I built...
I don't suggest you go to the EXTREMES I do but then again if one of mine go I'm right there w a Fire extinguisher...lol
I also have temp sensors on my batts...if they ever do get too hot I will hit master switch on charger setup to try to avoid that
but I rarely use them...thats for mod design testing...I like to know what I make will work with anything I want...and most of what I have is salvage parts or I built...
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Good information on mods and lithium batteries thanks Roly and everyone, better be safe than sorry!
I've already thought of that....all my mental simulations of that were not pretty...even w the lifepo chemistry...still all I can think of is all the mods I could make with those batts....
@ cigarbabe...buy a simple locking metal box....bout 10-16 bucks ...
Vintage Metal Tackle/Tool Box by AntiNu on Etsy
just don't put them on something flammable....and add a padlock hasp...that keeps it closed just in case
I have them on a table in the bedroom which may or may not be a heavy Formica like desktop.
Also my Pila is next to the bed. I do try to be fairly responsible and not leave the batteries unattended or fall asleep with them in the charger but that isn't always possible for me.
I haven't had any incidences with my chargers doing anything but I did have two Trustfires 2900mah 18650 vent in my Reo one right after the other.
Which Rob promptly took a look at. He didn't want to take any chances so he replaced my insides but the Reo was not proven to be the trigger for the batteries venting.
I believe they were just faulty probably even though they were brand new.
C.B.
CB,
Yes, a sheet of ali about a foot square sounds fine. Maybe if you can turn up the edges as well to make a lip all round, that would also be a good idea. Or just buy a large square tin of cookie/biscuit assortments if you can get that, the lid is tailor made for the job. Or a tin tray (a metal serving tray).
biscuit tin | eBay UK
A metal tool box is a good idea for storage, though at some stage we get into overkill. Batteries are most likely to fail when on charge, when used for the first time after charging, and when in a device jammed in a pocket or similar. I haven't heard of any that played up in storage, as no change of any kind is taking place. It's also worth considering that a metal box would need to be lined in order to stop a battery shorting out onto the metal.
Yes, a sheet of ali about a foot square sounds fine. Maybe if you can turn up the edges as well to make a lip all round, that would also be a good idea. Or just buy a large square tin of cookie/biscuit assortments if you can get that, the lid is tailor made for the job. Or a tin tray (a metal serving tray).
biscuit tin | eBay UK
A metal tool box is a good idea for storage, though at some stage we get into overkill. Batteries are most likely to fail when on charge, when used for the first time after charging, and when in a device jammed in a pocket or similar. I haven't heard of any that played up in storage, as no change of any kind is taking place. It's also worth considering that a metal box would need to be lined in order to stop a battery shorting out onto the metal.
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