Post-PACT

[sunset]

Hi All, I just found the judge's ruling from yesterday on the Pact Act for NY state Seneca ...interesting.

They still can't use the mail and "UPS and FedEx voluntarily stopped shipping cigarettes several years ago." So that's not good.

And looks like they don't have to collect taxes; "“If Congress possesses the authority to subject out-of-state retailers to every state and local taxing jurisdiction into which their products are delivered, then it has the authority to do so for all commercial products, not just cigarettes,” Arcara said."

NY judge temporarily exempts Seneca cigarette sellers from some new regulations, not mail ban

Looks like they're still going to fight it.

Edit: Just wondering how this might now apply to snus and snuff-smokeless tobacco and taxes..hmmm. Northerner is set up, but so many other companies really got messed up over the taxes...if this holds up and ends up applying to all?

 

[jamesam1243]

Tropical Bob recommended snus to me but with the PACT Act i don't how or where to get it, is there a legal or safe way to get it in Michigan? all i have seen here is American crap locally

is snus legal to buy online at all, and how would it be shipped legally?

i am very confused, i heard tobacco products were now illegal to ship through USPS, no?

please excuse my ignorance.

James

July 30 smoked 07 cigs, 33 less than my usual 40 cigs a day 3057 cigarettes not smoked in 88 days by using Stonewall, Joye 510, Hello 016, Ken's BoxMod, MadVapes 2xAA Box Mod, WetBox Vaporizer (ecig) and 19 bottles of ejuice partially used , $0.28 per cig X 3057 Cigs = $855.96 diverted from cigarettes to Vaporizer (ecig). OMG I have spent over $1671.51 in 74 days on this stuff but bare in mind that my old cigarette cost was $330 a month and i have $790 in supplies so $880 in hardware and consumed ejuice

 

[Katya]

Hey, James, Twisted just posted this for you in the other thread:

Here's a good place to start: Get Snus at GetSnus.com. The US based online snus store. A good mix of available snus. Snus works by giving us back the crave-calming effects of a smoke. It's fairly cheap, safe to use and made all the difference for many to finally close the door on cigarettes. I was a nicotine monster with a PV and couldn't quench the craving until I tried Swedish snus. It works. The biggest drawback is the shipping cost, so don't order just 1 can. They charge the same price to ship one 24 gram can as they do ten 24 gram cans. Do some research on the Smokeless sub-forum, ask some folks about different kinds and maybe you'll have enough info to put together a multi-can trial order to save some moola.

BTW, if you've never tried snus, I'll be happy to send you some samples. Just PM me and give me your address.

 

[jamesam1243]

Katya

ok, i found Snus Information on my own.

and yes, in that i have no idea what this snus really is i would love to get some samples from you, how do i pm you on this system?

James

 

[Katya]

Katya

ok, i found Snus Information on my own.

and yes, in that i have no idea what this snus really is i would love to get some samples from you, how do i pm you on this system?

James

Look at my avatar, the picture of that finch to the left of my post. Then click on my User name, Katya. Second line from the top should read "send private message to Katya". Click on that, type your message and click "submit" button under your message.

 

[jamesam1243]

sent you a PM:

i already have stonewall

James

 

[Katya]

Got it. We're good.

 

[sunset]

Hi All, I just found the judge's ruling from yesterday on the Pact Act for NY state Seneca ...interesting.

They still can't use the mail and "UPS and FedEx voluntarily stopped shipping cigarettes several years ago." So that's not good.

And looks like they don't have to collect taxes; "“If Congress possesses the authority to subject out-of-state retailers to every state and local taxing jurisdiction into which their products are delivered, then it has the authority to do so for all commercial products, not just cigarettes,” Arcara said."

NY judge temporarily exempts Seneca cigarette sellers from some new regulations, not mail ban

Looks like they're still going to fight it.

Edit: Just wondering how this might now apply to snus and snuff-smokeless tobacco and taxes..hmmm. Northerner is set up, but so many other companies really got messed up over the taxes...if this holds up and ends up applying to all?

---
And here's a video that pretty much states the same thing:
YouTube - Judge: no cigarettes through US mail

At the end they discuss the taxes...anyone else upset to think it took this lawsuit to finally get a judge to weigh in on collecting taxes. In short, I understand if other internet items aren't taxed, then it can't apply to cigarettes (tobacco) items only.

Now I wonder where this goes and applies to smokeless items and other items down the line like cigars and pipe tobacco that aren't 'hit' yet, but has to be on their radar.(s)
---
Edit for clarity and those who know me this ruling isn't about cigarettes for me...I quit about 9 months ago - it's about the taxes our lawmakers pushed through now probably knowing what this judge has ruled about regarding them and it should apply to smokeless products, also. I'm lucky to be in a state that it's not that much, some aren't . It's more anger 'over' stocking up because snus and snuff companies were going out of business and I couldn't buy it locally and what it's done to them, too. Ok, off to have my own rant.(s)

 

[Kookie]

Oh this makes me just SOO mad! Did you catch in that report what she said: "Justice Department Lawyers say the mailing of tax exempt Indian cigarettes cost the government billions of dollars in tax revenue." That does not make sense at all and just shows their hand. If it was tax exempt in the first place, how are they losing it? They just want it! If they try and hide behind the skirts of children one more time, I will blow. Like children are manipulating the mail to get cigarettes. Billions of dollars worth. They should be happy their making money in postal revenue.

 

[sunset]

Well, here's another one that our lawmakers forgot about....the troops and some are not able to get cigarettes on their bases.

New cigarette law snags cartons for troops too | courier-journal.com | The Courier-Journal

Jeeze, can't they think anything through before they pass a law! On July 30th a bill was introduced to exempt our servicemen, but they have to wait for the 6 week recess to end before it can come up.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Still following this story as regarding the sovereignty of the Seneca Nation (and any other Indian nation within our borders). So far no taxes yet, but NY Governor Paterson ain't giving up:

Trying to Smoke Out More Revenue - Newsweek

But on the bright side:

"New York thinks of all that untaxed money as lost revenue, but the Senecas see it as a backbone of their economy. Paterson is not the first governor to tangle with the Indian nations. The administrations of governors George Pataki and Mario Cuomo also tried to bring in funds from the reservations. They caved on the issue after tribal members shut down interstate highways, blocking traffic and setting fires."

Oh yeah ! Scalp 'em Tonto.........

 

[Stubby]

Courthouse News Service

The Seneca nation is still at it. I wouldn't hold my breath as this is the slow train of the courts, but at least let me dream a bit of USPS snus and no taxes before they are once again crushed....

(CN) - The D.C. Circuit ordered a federal judge to reconsider whether banning the sale of cigarettes through the mail and online violates the U.S. Constitution.
The Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act took effect last summer after being passed by Congress to combat illegal trafficking and cigarette sales to minors. The law prohibits the post office from delivering cigarettes sold on the Internet and forces Native American vendors to pay excise taxes to local and state governments.
Robert Gordon, a member of the Seneca Nation of Indians who sells tobacco products online and by mail from upstate New York, claimed that the act cost him nearly all his business. Before the law was enacted, Gordon said Internet and phone sales accounted for 95 percent of his business.
Gordon filed a suit in Washington, D.C., one day before the PACT Act was to go into effect, citing constitutional violations and infringement on tribal sovereignty.
A federal judge denied Gordon's motion for a restraining order and preliminary injunction, finding that the Seneca Nation member filed the motion at the 11th hour and that stopping congressional regulations went against public interest
On appeal, a three-judge panel found Friday that the District Court had abused its discretion and revived Gordon's suit and remanded the case for further proceedings.
"First, the District Court erred by relying on the late hour of the filing," Circuit Judge Janice Rogers Brown wrote for the court. "At the time of Gordon's filing, the statute had yet to go into effect. A motion seeking to enjoin a statute's enforcement before the statute may legally be enforced is timely - or at least not late - by definition."
Brown went on to say that even if the filing was untimely, it still would not have been a proper basis to deny the injunction.
The appeals court also found that the District Court failed to meaningfully weigh certain factors involved in deciding whether to issue an injunction, and wrongly based its decision on a vague claim of acting in public interest.
"By summarily citing to the public's interest without elaboration, the District Court abdicated its responsibility to fully analyze the one factor on which it did rely," the ruling states. "Consequently, we cannot be sure the District Court's analysis of the public interest was complete."
The Seneca Free Trade Association estimated that more than 140 businesses like Gordon's on the Seneca territory were going to be affected by the law, according to his lawsuit. And one-eighth of 8,000 enrolled Seneca Nation members will lose their jobs as a result.
The Seneca Nation said the PACT Act legislation materialized after substantial lobbying efforts from Big Tobacco and the National Association of Convenience Stores.
Those found to be in violation of the act are currently subject to civil fines or felony charges that carry three-year prison sentences.

 

[hittman]

Thanks for the update stubby. By the way, have you heard from TV? He dropped off the face of the earth about a month ago.

 

[Stubby]

Thanks for the update stubby. By the way, have you heard from TV? He dropped off the face of the earth about a month ago.

Haven't heard anything. I don't have his email address so no way to contact him.

 

[The Wiz]

Thanks for the update stubby. By the way, have you heard from TV? He dropped off the face of the earth about a month ago.

Haven't heard anything. I don't have his email address so no way to contact him.

Wow....Didn't know TV had vanished? I hope he's ok! Keep us posted if anyone hears from him. OTD may have his e-mail if I remember correctly!

Wiz

 

[hittman]

I emailed OTD and didnt get a response. I mailed a written letter to TV last Saturday but haven't heard from him.

 

[The Wiz]

I emailed OTD and didnt get a response. I mailed a written letter to TV last Saturday but haven't heard from him.

Hitt......He may just be taking a vacation from ECF. Not everyone has your forum fortitude!

Wiz!

 

[hittman]

I could understand that Wiz but its unlike him to not let anyone know. Last time he was going to stay off for a while he let me know. I guess I just worry too much.

 

[WerkIt]

Has anyone ordered post-PACT? I still haven't used up everything I ordered pre-PACT. I still have 8 cans of Offroad Cran Los left, 7 cans of SnusX (stored in tins, instead of the bucket) left, 4 cans of LD wet portions and 4 cans of LD dry portions. I figured all I ordered would get me through the middle of March, but obviously, I won't use up what I have left by then. Hell, I may not have to order until the end of May at the rate I am going.

 

[hittman]

I have ordered a couple times post pact. I wasn't completely out but was out of some of my favorites. Also my tastes changed some so a few that I had stocked up on weren't really my favorites any more. Depending on your state tax rate, snuscentral is probably the best way to go. I got an order not long ago and they aren't charging tax. Not to mention that northerner is higher priced on most snus and especially general brand.