Potential Explosions & a Provari?

[Penner]

After reading several threads about exploding PVs in the past month, I have begun to think about my Provari.

I know it has the automatic shutoff, has 1 vent hole, & only uses 1 battery (thank God), but I am still wondering...

I am using the IMR 18490 3.7v 1100 mAh batteries with a Pila charger sold on the Provape site but I am wondering:

IF battery trouble was to occur, why does Provape have the Provari bottom endcap screw on? It won't come off then, if an explosion were to occur.

It seems to me, to allow an explosion out, only have that endcap manually pressed in by the user.

Thoughts?

 

[Batsu]

im not gonna worry about it. good batts, good charger, safety features on the mod with vent holes. if anything were to happen, then its just ....ty luck, only so much that can be done to make something safe. the recent nationwide telecast of this dudes face being blown up seems to have instilled a lot of paranoia and doubt.

 

[Stubby]

With a runaway battery the pin hole vent hole on the Provape and Provari will do nothing more then perhaps give you a few seconds warning to throw it in the corner and duct. Its simply to small to prevent an explosion as a hole that small simple can't vent fast enough.

The Provapes mods do have more safety features that any other tube mode on the market, but the problem is that it's all electrical prevention. With a runaway battery it does no good to shut off the circuit. Once the battery is in runaway mode it doesn't matter, it's going to blow.

What is needed is a blow-out plug. This would be a rubber or plastic plug that blows out when the internal pressure gets to high. The bigger and weaker it is the better. Its simple a mechanical device for worst case scenarios. You may be able to even design one for the current Provapes be building it into the end cap. That way Provape 1 and Provari users could get another level of protection with a small investment. The difference is that it that it won't prevent something from happening, but it can prevent the worst from happening when the worst thing happens.

 

[rem700]

What would prevent someone from enlargeing the already existing vent hole themselves other then perhaps the lack of a drill and drill bit?
And if your worried about contaniments entering thru the enlarged hole you could cover it from the inside with a weak material like a piece of tape etc or perhaps filling the hole with silicone.

Oooops I didnt realize the end cap spring was that small dia guess I was thinking the spring went to the outer edge of the cap.

 

[mendnwngs]

unbalanced multi-cell stacks, with bad, or no protection circuitry are where the problems come in (that, and drawing at too high a C rate on un-protected batteries)

The high C-rate issue goes away with the amperage cut-off of the provari, and the multi-cell stack issue goes away, well.. because theres only one cell!

That said, there could be an instance of a cell, (even fully protected) just simply failing spectacularly.. It happens.. Cellphones, Laptops, iPod/Pads, etc.. Lithium tech batteries provide phenomenal power to weight, but the sacrifice is that theyre inherently "touchier" than more conventional chemistry batteries (like SLA, NiCd, NiMh, Zn, etc..)

FWIW, I have no problem trusting my Provari, and should a cell go into thermal runaway, and "Vent with flames" the top cap of the provari (the atty end) is press-fit, and would release well before the vessel would rupture, I'd think.

 

[Penner]

"...the top cap of the provari (the atty end) is press-fit, and would release well before the vessel would rupture, I'd think."

But this is the problem, you don't want the top cap by the atty blowing off first (to your face). You want the bottom cap going out first.

 

[Stubby]

"...the top cap of the provari (the atty end) is press-fit, and would release well before the vessel would rupture, I'd think."

But this is the problem, you don't want the top cap by the atty blowing off first (to your face). You want the bottom cap going out first.

I hadn't even thought of that. The top cap blowing could have bad outcomes. Just looked inside my Provape 1 and there is nothing there except a circuit board and the top cap.

 

[teslastick]

Just wear a helmet and use a condom... You'll be fine.

 

[Vape360]

The amount of power required to run an eCig requires a battery that can store a large amount of energy and deliver that energy on demand rapidly. Because of this requirement lithium ion batteries are the best choice. We all need to respect the amount of energy in these batteries.

But are they safe?

We all hear about the occasional incident where a battery fails in a violent way. This is caused by a short circuit within the cell or if stacked cells are used, one cell can discharge into the other with high discharge rates when one cell depletes its energy before the other.

A mild short will only cause an elevated self-discharge. Little heat is generated because the discharging energy is very low.
If, however, for whatever reason any of the following conditions happens;

1. Internal short circuit
2. Excess external charge current
3. Excess external discharge current
4. Environment conditions

The temperature can rise to the point where thermal runaway can happen that results in 'venting with flame.'
There are two basic types of lithium-ion chemistries: cobalt and manganese (spinel). Typical battery chemistry mixes are cobalt, nickel, manganese and iron phosphate.

Lithium-ion cells with cobalt cathodes should never rise above 130°C (265°F). At 150°C (302°F) the cell becomes thermally unstable, a condition that can lead to a thermal runaway in which flaming gases are vented. To achieve maximum runtime, cell phones, digital cameras and laptops use cobalt-based lithium-ion. Because of the lower temperature whereby the cell becomes thermally unstable, electronic protection circuits are added.

Manganese is the newer of the two chemistries and offers superior thermal stability. It can sustain temperatures of up to 250°C (482°F) before becoming unstable. In addition, manganese has a very low internal resistance and can deliver high current on demand. It is these two features that make this battery the best choice for use in the ProVari. The drawback of spinel is lower energy density. Typically, a cell made of a pure manganese cathode provides only about half the capacity of cobalt. The higher inherent safety of the spinel system permits the exclusion of the electric circuit in the battery. In the ProVape eCigs we incorporate the protection circuit into the eCig thus providing an added layer of safety. We know of NO safer combination then to use the manganese lithium ion battery with the ProVape eCig.

The AW IMR type cells that use the manganese chemistry are the safest of the lithium chemistry types.

The higher capacity cells use the cobalt chemistry with the electronic protection circuit.

The ultimate in safety is to have multiple redundant safety layers whereby if one layer of safety fails the other layer prevents an unsafe condition. This is what we strive for at ProVape, even if it means more internal components with its associated higher cost.

Asia produces many non-brand replacement batteries that are popular with users because of low price. Many of these batteries don't provide the same high safety standard as the main brand equivalent. A wise shopper spends a little more and buys a higher quality battery with its higher level of safety.

It is NOT recommended you use an unidentified lithium-ion battery from an Asian source.

As a consumer, you are in a position to select the highest quality and safest equipment. With each purchase, ask yourself,”Are a few pennies or dollars saved worth the safety risk?” Ultimately, your personal safety is in your hands with the equipment you buy.

Today, lithium-ion is one of the most successful and safe battery chemistries available. Two billion cells are produced every year. But be aware that there are several lithium ion battery chemistries being sold in the market. Some are safer than others.

Considering the number of lithium-ion batteries used on the market, this energy storage system has caused little harm in terms of damage and personal injury. In spite of the good record, its safety is a hot topic that gets high media attention whenever an incident occurs.

 

[evosil98]

The safety features of the Provape e-cigs are the main reason for me thinking about buying a provari or provape in the near future. All the other features are just the icing on the cake.

I have a quick question. Are there going to be any additional safety features in the near future (bottom blowout cap)?

Thank You

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Vape360 pretty much says it all: nothing is 100% safe, but everything that can be done within reasonable measures to ensure the Provari is safe has been done. I would venture to say that the recent 'exploding mods' involved stacking batteries, using cheaper batts, and other short cuts to "save money."
Following Provape's recommendations and guidelines, especially with using AW IMR batts, gives the user of the Provari a reasonable risk/reward. Of course this is just my opinion...YOMV.

 

[Chasbo]

I bought my batteries from Provape and will continue to do so.

Thank you for the information.

 

[Stubby]

So why are you not carrying the AW IMR 14500 battery for provape 1 users? It is only rated at 600 mah but I would guess a lower rating is expected with IMR type.

Reading over the specs for the AW IC 14500, which is what I use, it certainly has a good many safety features, but I have to wonder if the IMR might be a safer battery just because of its chemistry. Really thinking out loud here as I am not in any way a battery expert.

 

[Frick]

The AW IMR 18490 are high-drain non-protected 1000 mAh batteries.

Read here for information from Provape on why the Provari requires high-drain batteries: http://www.provape.com/v/faq.htm

 

[Shortstuff116]

I am using the AW IMR 18650 2000mah's that I purchased from Super-T but I would like to know that if I did use (for example) an Ultrafire 3000mah protected battery, would that void my Provari warranty?

Just curious.

 

[Batsu]

I am using the AW IMR 18650 2000mah's that I purchased from Super-T but I would like to know that if I did use (for example) an Ultrafire 3000mah protected battery, would that void my Provari warranty?

Just curious.

ii dont think so, you just don't get full voltage range, and the end cap might not screw on all the way. who knows tho, why would you risk overstressing a non recomended battery in the first place.

 

[moonlessnight]

Well said and very informative. This is one of the reasons I hot a provari...good job guys.

The amount of power required to run an eCig requires a battery that can store a large amount of energy and deliver that energy on demand rapidly. Because of this requirement lithium ion batteries are the best choice. We all need to respect the amount of energy in these batteries.

But are they safe?

We all hear about the occasional incident where a battery fails in a violent way. This is caused by a short circuit within the cell or if stacked cells are used, one cell can discharge into the other with high discharge rates when one cell depletes its energy before the other.

A mild short will only cause an elevated self-discharge. Little heat is generated because the discharging energy is very low.
If, however, for whatever reason any of the following conditions happens;

1. Internal short circuit
2. Excess external charge current
3. Excess external discharge current
4. Environment conditions

The temperature can rise to the point where thermal runaway can happen that results in 'venting with flame.'
There are two basic types of lithium-ion chemistries: cobalt and manganese (spinel). Typical battery chemistry mixes are cobalt, nickel, manganese and iron phosphate.

Lithium-ion cells with cobalt cathodes should never rise above 130°C (265°F). At 150°C (302°F) the cell becomes thermally unstable, a condition that can lead to a thermal runaway in which flaming gases are vented. To achieve maximum runtime, cell phones, digital cameras and laptops use cobalt-based lithium-ion. Because of the lower temperature whereby the cell becomes thermally unstable, electronic protection circuits are added.

Manganese is the newer of the two chemistries and offers superior thermal stability. It can sustain temperatures of up to 250°C (482°F) before becoming unstable. In addition, manganese has a very low internal resistance and can deliver high current on demand. It is these two features that make this battery the best choice for use in the ProVari. The drawback of spinel is lower energy density. Typically, a cell made of a pure manganese cathode provides only about half the capacity of cobalt. The higher inherent safety of the spinel system permits the exclusion of the electric circuit in the battery. In the ProVape eCigs we incorporate the protection circuit into the eCig thus providing an added layer of safety. We know of NO safer combination then to use the manganese lithium ion battery with the ProVape eCig.

The AW IMR type cells that use the manganese chemistry are the safest of the lithium chemistry types.

The higher capacity cells use the cobalt chemistry with the electronic protection circuit.

The ultimate in safety is to have multiple redundant safety layers whereby if one layer of safety fails the other layer prevents an unsafe condition. This is what we strive for at ProVape, even if it means more internal components with its associated higher cost.

Asia produces many non-brand replacement batteries that are popular with users because of low price. Many of these batteries don't provide the same high safety standard as the main brand equivalent. A wise shopper spends a little more and buys a higher quality battery with its higher level of safety.

It is NOT recommended you use an unidentified lithium-ion battery from an Asian source.

As a consumer, you are in a position to select the highest quality and safest equipment. With each purchase, ask yourself,”Are a few pennies or dollars saved worth the safety risk?” Ultimately, your personal safety is in your hands with the equipment you buy.

Today, lithium-ion is one of the most successful and safe battery chemistries available. Two billion cells are produced every year. But be aware that there are several lithium ion battery chemistries being sold in the market. Some are safer than others.

Considering the number of lithium-ion batteries used on the market, this energy storage system has caused little harm in terms of damage and personal injury. In spite of the good record, its safety is a hot topic that gets high media attention whenever an incident occurs.

 

[Baldr]

This post may ease some concerns for Provari users.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-mods-update-february-2012-a.html#post5327522

TLDR : All known in-your-face type explosions have a couple of things in common. They used stacked batteries, and they happened on the first button press after loading freshly charged batteries.

With the Provari, you're using a single battery and a booster circuit, not stacked batteries. That fits with recommended practice.

In addition, if you know that battery explosions occassionally happen, and normally happen on the first use right after charging, you can hit that power button without vaping every time you load a fresh battery. That way it isn't near your face. If that causes no problems, then you can start vaping.

IMO, risk of an explosion/meltdown while on the charger is a much bigger risk. Everyone should have a safe-charging bag to limit that risk.

 

[Shortstuff116]

...Everyone should have a safe-charging bag to limit that risk.

I didn't know such bags existed, thanks for the link. But they do all list them as being used for LIPO batteries which tends to make me think that they (LIPO batteries) are a bit more unsafe the regular Lithium Ion? Either way you posted some good information for us.

 

[VapourMonkey]

Just a suggestion but after reading rolygate's recent mod safety update I was looking at my Provari and had a thought.
Why not produce a Provari with the grooves that run around the lower section milled out.

There's only one thing that would stop me recommending a Provari over a standard ego type e-cig to a vaping convert and that's the possibility that they would just go straight out and buy a no brand cheap battery because it say six zillion mah on the label. If the grooves were milled out there would be as much surface area as the new ECF guidlines for any serious venting if they did go and put something in that they shouldna have.