Preparing for the worst case scenario. Please help me check my math before I buy...

[MD_Boater]

Hello ECF DIY experts. I am not currently making DIY liquids yet.

I started vaping on 11/1, and am currently on day #30 with no analogs. I want to keep it that way long into the future. Given the current uncertainty about the state of vaping in this country, I plan on buying enough nic base to ensure that I have an abundant, affordable supply of eliquid for the next 3-5 years or until such time as I decide to either quit vaping or vape only 0mg. I am not going to let the government decide IF I can vape, nor will I wait and do nothing until they make it financially painful to vape (high eliquid taxes?) like they did with the analogs. Rant mode off.

Minimizing freezer storage is my primary concern. Shelf life is a concern, but secondary at this point. Will the nic base last 5 years in a freezer (whatever is left of it by then)? I believe that straight PG and VG, as well as the flavorings will remain readily available at reasonable prices long into the future since slapping outrageous taxes on them would impact too many other products.

I have over-estimated these numbers by quite a bit on purpose. I am using 10ml/day as consumption. It's closer to 5ml in real life, but I want to cover myself, my wife, and any other friends that I might wish to share my liquids with. I used 12mg as my target nic level, but I plan on being at 6% by the time that I start actually using these supplies. Remember, this is "doomsday" prepping. I may just keep buying retail eliquid for a while if the government doesn't mess it up for me.

Calculated supply requirements:
I removed the 20% flavoring volume from the calculations. All I am after right now is to determe the amount of nic base that I need to purchase.

10 ml/day * 365 days * 5 yrs = 18,250ml = 18.25L or 4.82gal (finished product - not that bad - I thought it would be much more)
I have used a target PG/VG ratio of 60/40 (I always put PG first)

I downloaded the eJuice Me Up software, and input 18250ml of 12mg nic juice. When I hit calculate, I get the following results:

For 100mg VG only nic base, with target 60/40 PG/VG and 12% nic:
2.19L of nic base
10.95L of PG
5.110L of VG

For 100mg PG only nic base, with target 60/40 PG/VG and 12% nic:
2.19L of nic base
8.760L of PG
7.300L of VG

Is that for real? I would only need to order 2.25L of 100mg nic base to get 5 years worth of 12% eLiquid?

Thanks in advance,
Michael

 

[Jellyfish]

I punched up some numbers in a spreadsheet, and the 2.19 L of 100 mg/ml nic base looks right to me based on your criteria. The only thing that was not accounted for is the 2016 leap year and the fact that you're screwed if you spill anything.

 

[Kurt]

While I don't know anyone that has stored nic in the freezer for 5 years, I have 4 year old nic in mine that is unchanged, and I expect it to last many more years. VG nic has a better track record for long term freezer storage than PG nic, but if the nic is pure (clear, colorless and almost tasteless) it should be fine indefinitely. VG sets up like a thick glue in the freezer, making the nic in it less likely to move around and find an O2 molecule to react with. PG is more liquid, but cold slows down all reactions. I have had mixed results with long term PG-nic storage. Some did not change in a year (very pure high-grade nic), and the less-pure did change, but not much, and not in my opinion in a bad direction. Actually took on a nice tobacco flavor. Others that store high-grade PG-nic have had excellent results in storage in the freezer.

So buy pure, high-grade nic. See reviews here. Good ones are MFS, NicVape, Nude, XtremeVaping, Wizard Lab, and some others.

Of course, most PVs will not last 5 years of use, but that is another discussion.

 

[Train2]

You don't even have to go into the PG/VG ratios - just figure out the nicotine - but your numbers are correct.
You vape 10 mls/day = 18250 mls in 5 years. Each ml has 12 mg of nicotine. So you need 219000 mg. of nicotine.
Simple.

If you buy it in 100 mg/ml, divide by 100 to get mls of nic base.
If you buy in at 60 mg/ml divide by 60 to get mls of nic base.
etc.
So yeah, you can get nearly 5 YEARS worth of nicotine for about $220.

But the flavors are kind of pricey, too:
18250 mls in 5 year, 20% of it flavor = 3650 mls, and that stuff costs like $0.18/ml - so total cost over $600

 

[FACE MEAT]

Another precaution worth taking is storing the nic base in glass instead of plastic.

I like amber glass boston round bottles with poly-cone caps.

 

[AthensGa]

I don't think he's worrying about flavors because the govt won't regulate those any more than they are. He's not planning for the apocalypse but govt regulations. Flavors can be purchased on an as needed basis, barring zombies, deadly diseases or WAIT is it an ASTROID... coming straight down on US??? Run, HIde FLEEEEEE!!!

Oh sorry, it was a dust bunny.

 

[vapero]

if you want to get technical you will sometimes mix some unvapable stuff or something that you won't like that much you will have some throwaways!

 

[Dj Xy]

I would round all amounts up to whole liters.

 

[emus]

My freezer stored MFS 60mg nic/pg held up perfect (far as I can tell) over 4 years.

1000ml 100mg unflavored should exceed your 5 year goal.

 

[Kurt]

Another precaution worth taking is storing the nic base in glass instead of plastic.

I like amber glass boston round bottles with poly-cone caps.

Yes, indeed! Thanks for mentioning this. I should have remembered that no liquid will last long in plastic, since O2 will cross the plastic wall. I use amber glass bottles, 30-50 mL, from Specialtybottle.com with eurodropper inserts for syringe dispensing and protection against spilling:

Specialty Bottle - Amber European Dropper Bottles

The euro also acts as a gasket, like the polycone caps. I also store long term as is from the vendor, I do not dilute and then store, so to not introduce more O2 to the liquid. Then I make enough juice for a few weeks fresh, as I need it, using nic from one of the glass bottles. I prefer to store in smaller bottles, rather than a big bottle, so to not be continually opening and closing a large amount of liquid. Just pull one small bottle out, bring to room temp, and start mixing.

 

[Kurt]

My freezer stored MFS 60mg nic/pg held up perfect (far as I can tell) over 4 years.

1000ml 100mg unflavored should exceed your 5 year goal.

My 4 year old MFS 100 mg VG also is unchanged. Unfortunately, my batch has a rather unpleasant taste to it...always did, its not from aging. Back then there were very few nic vendors selling >36 mg, and the SE court case with the FDA was making everyone panic, so we stocked up. Turns out nic quality has improved dramatically since then, including MFS nic, and I am wondering if I will ever actually vape that nic.

I also have about 30 Joye 510 Mega batteries in my fridge from back then, and a bunch of 510 attys, neither of which get much vape time these days. Hardware has improved dramatically since then, and I expect it to continue to improve. OTOH, I don't expect the quality of the ultra-pure nics available now to improve...they are already about as pure a nic as is possible now.

 

[MD_Boater]

VG nic has a better track record for long term freezer storage than PG nic...

I hadn't considered that VG might be better for storage. I may go that route. It is probably less prone to splashing as well. Does it need to be shaken, stirred, or mixed when you take some out in say a year or two?

Of course, most PVs will not last 5 years of use, but that is another discussion.

As long as I can get my hands on some wire and a switch, I'll be able to rig up something up that will vape.

You don't even have to go into the PG/VG ratios - just figure out the nicotine - but your numbers are correct...So yeah, you can get nearly 5 YEARS worth of nicotine for about $220.

But the flavors are kind of pricey, too:
18250 mls in 5 year, 20% of it flavor = 3650 mls, and that stuff costs like $0.18/ml - so total cost over $600

Looks like I made it more complicated than I needed to. Par for the course. I plan on buying the plain PG and VG, as well as all of the other supplies as needed - like a "normal" person. This is nothing more than personal liberty insurance. I hate paying unnecessary taxes.

I don't think he's worrying about flavors because the govt won't regulate those any more than they are. He's not planning for the apocalypse but govt regulations. Flavors can be purchased on an as needed basis, barring zombies, deadly diseases or WAIT is it an ASTROID... coming straight down on US??? Run, HIde FLEEEEEE!!!

I've got a boat, zombies can't swim. No problem. Plaque? I'll anchor off shore until everyone else dies. Asteroids? Well, I guess I have to take some risks. Most metorites that hit the Earth fall into the sea. I might have to hedge my bet and sit that one out at the marina tiki bar with an umbrella drink and a PV. Hopefully, the PV won't need to be cleverly disguised as a toaster or a weed wacker.

Oh sorry, it was a dust bunny.

For a second there, I thought you were going to tell me that I needed to stock up on dust bunnies too. I always figured that they would be plentiful and free. There is no way the government can screw those up. Right?

My freezer stored MFS 60mg nic/pg held up perfect (far as I can tell) over 4 years.

1000ml 100mg unflavored should exceed your 5 year goal.

Technically, if my planned drop to 6mg next week goes as planned, those quantities will last me 8-10 years. If I stop vaping before then, I'll give them to a friend.

I really appreciate all of the information.

I will never smoke again, and the government can't make me!

 

[FACE MEAT]

My freezer stored MFS 60mg nic/pg held up perfect (far as I can tell) over 4 years.

1000ml 100mg unflavored should exceed your 5 year goal.

I'm really curious what the "expiration date" of nicotine stored in ideal conditions would be. Since nicotine as we know it (suspended in PG or VG) hasn't been around long enough for long-term results.

 

[FACE MEAT]

My 4 year old MFS 100 mg VG also is unchanged. Unfortunately, my batch has a rather unpleasant taste to it...always did, its not from aging. Back then there were very few nic vendors selling >36 mg, and the SE court case with the FDA was making everyone panic, so we stocked up. Turns out nic quality has improved dramatically since then, including MFS nic, and I am wondering if I will ever actually vape that nic.

Hang on to it and sell it to those unfortunate desperate vapers who fail to plan.

 

[MD_Boater]

My 4 year old MFS 100 mg VG also is unchanged. Unfortunately, my batch has a rather unpleasant taste to it...always did, its not from aging. Back then there were very few nic vendors selling >36 mg, and the SE court case with the FDA was making everyone panic, so we stocked up. Turns out nic quality has improved dramatically since then, including MFS nic, and I am wondering if I will ever actually vape that nic.

I also have about 30 Joye 510 Mega batteries in my fridge from back then, and a bunch of 510 attys, neither of which get much vape time these days. Hardware has improved dramatically since then, and I expect it to continue to improve. OTOH, I don't expect the quality of the ultra-pure nics available now to improve...they are already about as pure a nic as is possible now.

I'm not familiar with that case, but wow. People were actually thinking that batteries would be banned? Amazing. Better safe than sorry. So how did it work out for you? How much did you buy? Are you "on plan" from a usage perspective? I guess the fact that the unpleasant taste never changed in 4 years is sort of a good thing. Proves that freezing works. Have you tested it recently to see if the nic content is still at the rated level? I'm curious and won't have the opportunity to find out for several years.

I was actually looking at MFS and RTS as the vendors. Most folks on here seem pretty satisfied with both.

 

[emus]

I'm really curious what the "expiration date" of nicotine stored in ideal conditions would be. Since nicotine as we know it (suspended in PG or VG) hasn't been around long enough for long-term results.

I'm an offender of using products past the marketing expiration date.

Sure, I toss those expired canned pineapples but I still use rubbing alcohol that expired years ago.

I try to apply a dose of common sense in addition to my other senses.

BTW: My expired PG and VG appear to be perfect just like the nic.

 

[emus]

My 4 year old MFS 100 mg VG also is unchanged. Unfortunately, my batch has a rather unpleasant taste to it...always did, its not from aging. Back then there were very few nic vendors selling >36 mg, and the SE court case with the FDA was making everyone panic, so we stocked up. Turns out nic quality has improved dramatically since then, including MFS nic, and I am wondering if I will ever actually vape that nic.

I also have about 30 Joye 510 Mega batteries in my fridge from back then, and a bunch of 510 attys, neither of which get much vape time these days. Hardware has improved dramatically since then, and I expect it to continue to improve. OTOH, I don't expect the quality of the ultra-pure nics available now to improve...they are already about as pure a nic as is possible now.

My 2009 vintage MFS nic taste just like my 2012 vintage MFS nic to me.

 

[ut1205]

Five years from now, after the taxes kick in, your 2 liters might become a pretty good retirement income. Does Nic in a dark freezer know that it is in amber glass?

 

[emus]

Five years from now, after the taxes kick in, your 2 liters might become a pretty good retirement income. Does Nic in a dark freezer know that it is in amber glass?

How do you know it's really dark in there when the door is closed. Homer couldn't prove it.

 

[ut1205]

How do you know it's really dark in there when the door is closed. Homer couldn't prove it.

It's a big upright freezer. Hold on, let me go get in it and close the door..............................................................................yep, it's dark. For some reason I feel a light "chill".