Question directed to @Mooch

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DaveP

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An argument can be made that the low current-rated cells are “more dangerous” because of their, typically, greater capacity. The additional active material in higher capacity cells can create a greater volume of gas if the cell goes into thermal runaway.

That's interesting, Mooch. So MAH is a greater contributor to the level of expansion and explosion than the AMP rating? I guess that makes sense. The ability to deliver power over time (MAH) as opposed to the max load amperage rating would indicate the amount of instantaneous power delivery available under hard use, especially a dead short.

I never really thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense.
 
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mimöschen

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A higher amprating makes a cell less volatile under stress. No matter how high the actual mah may be.
A 1500mah 20A cell is as explosive as a 3000mah 20A cell.
In theory.
What actually matters much more than amps and mah is the chemistry involved in each specific cell, because even slight differences in chemistries can have a huge effect on the thermal reactions going on. And that is something noone except the manufacturer knows for sure.
 

Mooch

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    Its functionally the same from
    The perspective of the battery. The same amount of stuff is packed inside. You could be unsafe for other reasons but from the battery side the safety rating is the safety rating.

    Different current ratings can mean different levels of active materials inside the battery as thicker coils used to collect the current and thicker metal tabs leading from the spiral roll of layers to the top and bottom of the battery can lead to less room for the active materials.

    Different capacities can definitely lead to different amounts of active materials.
     
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    Mooch

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    That's interesting, Mooch. So MAH is a greater contributor to the level of expansion and explosion than the AMP rating? I guess that makes sense. The ability to deliver power over time (MAH) as opposed to the max load amperage rating would indicate the amount of instantaneous power delivery available under hard use, especially a dead short.

    I never really thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense.

    The instantaneous power delivery is determined a lot by the internal resistance, which is affected by a lot of things. The capacity is more analogous to how much fuel there is to be converted to gas.
     

    DaveP

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    The instantaneous power delivery is determined a lot by the internal resistance, which is affected by a lot of things. The capacity is more analogous to how much fuel there is to be converted to gas.

    I'm noticing internal resistance variations among my older 18650's compared to my newer cells. New ones run from 15 milliohms to about 25/35. Some older ones are well over 100 milliohms as they age. That's measured by my Zanflare C4 charger. I have no reference as to how it compares to professional equipment in measuring internal resistance, but it's probably a good tool for age and health comparison of cells.
     
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    Baditude

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    Are there any statistics that states the most common problem to mechanical device failures are users building coils that draw more than what their cells are capable of? If this is a common human trait, then why are we not seeing similar failures with other devices such as the ever so popular mechanical squonk mods? I fully understand that with the physical characteristics of a tube mech, a battery failure can be much more dramatic – but venting or thermal runaway due to high currant draw on a mechanical device should not be segregated to tube mechs only. Despite a mech squonker may not turn into a pipe bomb, should this venting and or thermal runaway happen while the device is in the user’s hand, or at their face, one can still incur a serious injury. But these reports are few in comparison which leads me to believe there are more to these failures than just low ohm builds.
    There are no such statistics available that I am aware of. The below study comes to an anecdotal conclusion that the recent popularity of sub--ohm vaping and mods with removable batteries has resulted in e-cigs explosions which are more likely to explode during use and far more likely to cause serious injuries than in the past.

    E-Cigarette Explosions: Comprehensive List
    There have been 50 major incidents this year (2016) alone and that's just the ones which make the news. They also go on to say...
    "It is interesting to note that the nature of e-cigarette explosions has changed over the years. The FEMA document cited above suggests that approximately 80 percent of e-cigarette explosions happen during charging. In addition, most e-cigarette explosions that occurred before early 2015 involved no reported injuries. However, people began to experience different types of e-cigarette explosions when sub-ohm vaping and mods with removable batteries became more popular. More than ever, e-cigarettes explode during use. Explosions resulting from people carrying spare batteries in their pockets are also far more common. Regardless of the circumstances, e-cigarette explosions are far more likely to cause injuries today than they were in the past."Tobacco Truth: E-Cigarette Battery Hazards Minuscule and Overblown

    I personally believe that we don't read about mech squonker explosions compared to tube mechs is because mech squonkers are arguably less common and are not as popular with the younger male population of cloud chasers. In addition, most squonkers are box mods that have just a magnetic battery door which allows the gas pressure from a venting battery to blow it away or escape via the hole for the squonker's liquid bottle.

    Thermal runaway is a relatively rare event. Venting batteries are more common. Venting batteries may cause burns if the user is holding the mod, but if the gas has an escape route it shouldn't cause the mod itself to explode. A tube mech is most likely to explode if there is no adequate vent route.

    The below statements were made by our former ECF manager and battery expert, @rolygate:

    "- Sealed metal tubes will probably explode if a battery vents violently
    - The battery itself may physically block gas from escaping to the bottom of the mod
    - Small vents at the bottom of the tube are useless, only very large gas vents near the top have a good chance of preventing an explosion
    - Building coils lower than 0.2 ohm will raise the amp draw exponentially
    and this increases risk - the power graph shows a significant change at 0.2 ohms and starts to climb vertically as resistance is reduced further
    1.0 ohm = 4.2 amp draw
    0.9 ohm = 4.6 amp draw
    0.8 ohm = 5.2 amp draw
    0.7 ohms = 6 amp draw
    0.6 ohms = 7 amp draw
    0.5 ohms = 8.4 amp draw
    0.4 ohms = 10.5 amp draw
    0.3 ohms = 14.0 amp draw
    0.2 ohms = 21.0 amp draw
    0.14 ohms = 30 amp draw
    0.1 ohms = 42.0 amp draw
    0.0 ohms = dead short = battery vents or goes into thermal runaway​
    - Using cheap batteries with ultra low res coils is a certain route to high risk - it needs 30 amp batteries of guaranteed high quality
    - Using long draws or machine-gun draws to create monster clouds stresses the battery much more
    - Cloud Contests are events where people put ultra high stress on their rig to create monster clouds; if spectating, you could consider standing at the back of the room to stay safe
    - If you run a Cloud Contest then you should probably check that your personal and business insurance is really, really good and is appropriate for dangerous sports
    - People are now discussing the safety (!) involved with putting 100-amp pulses on their batteries in order to create the biggest clouds with the lowest resistance coils; there is only one way this is going to go and you don't want to be within the explosion radius: someone may have a counterfeit battery, or one that is just too small for this extreme usage mode together with ignoring the device getting warm or even hot."​
     
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    Baditude

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    Spydro

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    Reminds me of the VapeSafe fuses I bought back in the early spring of 2013 for mech tube mods that I used 18650 BT AW IMR batts in. I was new to vaping, didn't know the folks on ECF yet, didn't know who knew squat and who didn't. So I bought some hyped things that I never did use (including these 6 fuses that were $60 and quite slow getting here from Canada).
     
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    Punk In Drublic

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    @Baditude – first I would like to applaud your efforts. Your contributions to ECF is much appreciated.

    As for mech squonkers - I don’t know about arguably less common. Mech squonkers seem quite common among ECF users and if I look at what is being sold locally, I would say the numbers might be closer than one interprets. Many stores do not carry mech tube mods but do carry inexpressive mech squonkers from Vandy Vape or Geekvape just to name a couple of brands. Given its availability and celebrity endorsement I would guess the Vandy Vape Pulse BF mech enjoyed an extremely high number of sales and most likely was many user’s introduction to a mechanical device. And because the kit could be purchased with a dual coil atomizer, I would also guess the likelihood of an inexperienced user building a resistance that is too low for their battery could also be high.

    I understand given the nature of a mechanical box mod that is held together with magnets will most likely result in a less dramatic failure in comparison to a tube mech. But battery venting due to over discharging (for lack of better words) is not segregated to tube mods only. As you stated a venting battery can cause injury regardless of the device.

    Your linked statistic on exploding devices is interesting but also lacks details. I’ll ask because I do not know (perhaps @Mooch or yourself knows) but when did counterfeit or exaggerated re-wraps marketed toward vaping start to become more widely available? Was it along the same time when subohm(ing) became popular? Could this be a contributing factor, and one with great numbers with exploding devices? Is it fair to say that exploding devices became more common with subohm builds or should we question the batteries that were used?

    Since the introduction of portable electronics, be it a small radio or even a laptop, we are conditioned to trust the batteries that power these devices. One does not think twice about purchasing a Duracell or some cheap no name AA battery to power their portable electronics. I believe this false sense of security is carried over with many who get into vaping. I throw my MP3 player into my pocket and it accidently gets activated – nothing happens! Batteries drain, the device turns off. Do the same with any vaping device, subohm or not, and the results can be quite catastrophic. And with the right sequence of events it could be extremely fatal. I have no concerns using the no name batteries that came buddle with my TV remote control. But yet a user getting into vaping must pay attention to the cells in which they use. Who educates vaping consumers on this? Who educates retailers? How is this information transferred when buying online? Despite my profession involves a level of ohms law and deals with batteries (very large batteries), I was unaware of exaggerated speced re-wraps until at least a month after I started vaping. With this lack of knowledge, call it ignorance if you wish, anyone can become a vaping statistic.

    Not saying subohm builds do not carry a certain level of risk. I am just not convinced a low ohm build is the major cause to fatal battery failures. One does not need to vape in the subohm region to experience an electrical short due to damaged wraps or misfires while in their pocket. The blow link identifies 4 filed lawsuits from just one firm all of which deal with exploding devices that occurred not while vaping, but while improperly stored.

    ‘A bullet in your pocket’: Lawyers target battery makers in exploding e-cigarette cases

    I am not debating the dangers with a tube mech but think we need to question why these failures occur before pointing fingers at how low of a resistance is in a user’s atomizer. With this last tube mech fatality was it a faulty device, improper storage, improper atomizer, over tightening the tube resulting in the cell being damaged, battery wrap neglect, improper build for the cell or a unknowingly false sense of security with the batteries being used (exaggerated ratings)? There are quite a number of possibilities many of which are not isolated to tube mechs only.

    Sorry.....long post
     

    Baditude

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    @Baditude – first I would like to applaud your efforts. Your contributions to ECF is much appreciated.
    Your linked statistic on exploding devices is interesting but also lacks details. I’ll ask because I do not know (perhaps @Mooch or yourself knows) but when did counterfeit or exaggerated re-wraps marketed toward vaping start to become more widely available? Was it along the same time when subohm(ing) became popular? Could this be a contributing factor, and one with great numbers with exploding devices? Is it fair to say that exploding devices became more common with subohm builds or should we question the batteries that were used?
    Can I say ALL OF THE ABOVE?

    Efest batteries are rewraps which have been around since 18650 batteries first began to be used in mods. Efest became quite notorous for over-rating their battery specs as well as the Trustfire, Surefire, and Ultrafire brands. Purple Efest Batteries Not As Advertised

    The Chinese rewrapper companies seemed to appear like cockroaches out of the woodwork once vapers began demanding high amp batteries for sub-ohm builds. AWT, Basen, Imren, MXJO and others all came out with wrappers "claiming" they were over 30 amps. And to make matters worse, You Tube reviewers like the popular Rip Trippers were using them with extremely low builds and recommending them. Thanks to Battery Mooch, we had someone who was able to test these batteries and report their exaggerated ratings. Mooch began to appear on some of these You Tube reviewers videos, and then got his own You Tube channel.

    What Everyone Should Know About Aftermarket Batteries
    Are You Using a Rewrap (Rebranded or Aftermarket) Battery?
     
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    Punk In Drublic

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    Can I say ALL OF THE ABOVE?

    Efest batteries are rewraps which have been around since 18650 batteries first began to be used in mods. Efest became quite notorous for over-rating their battery specs as well as the Trustfire, Surefire, and Ultrafire brands. Purple Efest Batteries Not As Advertised

    The Chinese rewrapper companies seemed to appear like cockroaches out of the woodwork once vapers began demanding high amp batteries for sub-ohm builds. AWT, Basen, Imren, MXJO and others all came out with wrappers "claiming" they were over 30 amps. And to make matters worse, You Tube reviewers like the popular Rip Trippers were using them with extremely low builds and recommending them. Thanks to Battery Mooch, we had someone who was able to test these batteries and report their exaggerated ratings. Mooch began to appear on some of these You Tube reviewers videos, and then got his own You Tube channel.

    What Everyone Should Know About Aftermarket Batteries
    Are You Using a Rewrap (Rebranded or Aftermarket) Battery?

    So we have Chinese re-wraps taking advantage of the rise in popularity of vaping. Without someone like Mooch who has identified the false claims from these re-wraps, how is a consumer suppose to know that what they are using is potentially lethal? And to further that, how is a consumer suppose to know there is even someone like Mooch who is preforming battery tests thus identifying faults? As mentioned above we are conditioned to trust the batteries within our electronics so why would anyone research into falsely spec products.

    This goes beyond the consumer as well. A highly rated battery vendor sells the very same AWT batteries that you linked above without an ounce of caution that they are over rated or even re-wrapped. This is not just a threat to vapers (which that vendor warns against), but to anyone looking to utilize a high CDR cell for what ever project they intent to work on. We have a trusted source that is selling untrusted material completely unknown to the consumer. And to further add, I know for a fact this vendor also sells to retailers….who trust their distributors!

    As much as I point the finger at re-wraps, I personally feel they should be stopped at the distribution level and long before hitting retail outlets unless they are correctly identified and follow a level of quality control. Mooch, yourself and many others (including me!!) can only educate so many. If re-wraps are made available, the public will purchase despite our best efforts. Our governing agencies needs to get involved in order for this to progress on a mass scale.

    As for subohm vaping or building beyond what a cell is capable of. Like many industries there will always be a small group that go above and beyond, taking things to the extreme. We see this with automobiles, home stereos and even bicycles (given the many broken bones I have sustained I say the later with experience!). This is a natural human progression. We can frown upon it, but we can’t stop it. However, we can ensure that the products that are being used, are what they claim to be. If it says 30 amps on the can, then it is up to the user to decide whether they wish to go beyond. But if 30 amps really means 8 amps, that’s an extreme false sense of security to not only the user who wishes to push beyond the limits, but to those who also wish to stay within the limits!
     

    Robin Becker

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    I think that finally people who vape must deal with the matters of batteries exactly like they do with other matters of hardware, or liquids.
    To the re-Wrap-Companies I wrote it once and I write it again - every one cooks with the same water.
    There are no special batteries for vaping and especially in common sizes like 18650, 20700 and 21700 the big known manufacturer like Sony (Murata), Samsung SDI, LG Chem and Panasonic (sanyo), known as the "BIG-4" still offer the best performing batteries.
    So you can call them Efest, AWT, Basen, or Imren...if they want to offer high performing batteries. they must re-wrap those coming from the known manufacturer - that is a fact!
    As long as those Re-wrapers publish the same real technical specifications like the "BIG-4" do, it is OK with me...but when they start to mix batteries with lower specifications, just to make good money out of it. it is time to avoid!
     
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    DaveP

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    The above posts are exactly the reason I buy cells from highly respected vendors who verify that their cells are original OEM manufactured by Samsung, Sony, LG, and Panasonic. I understand that Sanyo is now a manufacturer, also.

    Pretty much any other brand is a re-wrap.

    Here's an appropriate chart for this thread. It's probably way too restrictive for some sub ohm vapers, but seems to be appropriate for unregulated devices, especially if you look at the 4.2v column.

    dghff.jpg
     
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    r77r7r

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    There are no such statistics available that I am aware of. The below study comes to an anecdotal conclusion that the recent popularity of sub--ohm vaping and mods with removable batteries has resulted in e-cigs explosions which are more likely to explode during use and far more likely to cause serious injuries than in the past.

    E-Cigarette Explosions: Comprehensive List
    There have been 50 major incidents this year (2016) alone and that's just the ones which make the news. They also go on to say...
    "It is interesting to note that the nature of e-cigarette explosions has changed over the years. The FEMA document cited above suggests that approximately 80 percent of e-cigarette explosions happen during charging. In addition, most e-cigarette explosions that occurred before early 2015 involved no reported injuries. However, people began to experience different types of e-cigarette explosions when sub-ohm vaping and mods with removable batteries became more popular. More than ever, e-cigarettes explode during use. Explosions resulting from people carrying spare batteries in their pockets are also far more common. Regardless of the circumstances, e-cigarette explosions are far more likely to cause injuries today than they were in the past."Tobacco Truth: E-Cigarette Battery Hazards Minuscule and Overblown

    I personally believe that we don't read about mech squonker explosions compared to tube mechs is because mech squonkers are arguably less common and are not as popular with the younger male population of cloud chasers. In addition, most squonkers are box mods that have just a magnetic battery door which allows the gas pressure from a venting battery to blow it away or escape via the hole for the squonker's liquid bottle.

    Thermal runaway is a relatively rare event. Venting batteries are more common. Venting batteries may cause burns if the user is holding the mod, but if the gas has an escape route it shouldn't cause the mod itself to explode. A tube mech is most likely to explode if there is no adequate vent route.

    The below statements were made by our former ECF manager and battery expert, @rolygate:

    "- Sealed metal tubes will probably explode if a battery vents violently
    - The battery itself may physically block gas from escaping to the bottom of the mod
    - Small vents at the bottom of the tube are useless, only very large gas vents near the top have a good chance of preventing an explosion
    - Building coils lower than 0.2 ohm will raise the amp draw exponentially
    and this increases risk - the power graph shows a significant change at 0.2 ohms and starts to climb vertically as resistance is reduced further
    1.0 ohm = 4.2 amp draw
    0.9 ohm = 4.6 amp draw
    0.8 ohm = 5.2 amp draw
    0.7 ohms = 6 amp draw
    0.6 ohms = 7 amp draw
    0.5 ohms = 8.4 amp draw
    0.4 ohms = 10.5 amp draw
    0.3 ohms = 14.0 amp draw
    0.2 ohms = 21.0 amp draw
    0.14 ohms = 30 amp draw
    0.1 ohms = 42.0 amp draw
    0.0 ohms = dead short = battery vents or goes into thermal runaway​
    - Using cheap batteries with ultra low res coils is a certain route to high risk - it needs 30 amp batteries of guaranteed high quality
    - Using long draws or machine-gun draws to create monster clouds stresses the battery much more
    - Cloud Contests are events where people put ultra high stress on their rig to create monster clouds; if spectating, you could consider standing at the back of the room to stay safe
    - If you run a Cloud Contest then you should probably check that your personal and business insurance is really, really good and is appropriate for dangerous sports
    - People are now discussing the safety (!) involved with putting 100-amp pulses on their batteries in order to create the biggest clouds with the lowest resistance coils; there is only one way this is going to go and you don't want to be within the explosion radius: someone may have a counterfeit battery, or one that is just too small for this extreme usage mode together with ignoring the device getting warm or even hot."​
    Starting to get an idea of why Roly left when he did....
     

    jandrew

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    ...
    Here's an appropriate chart for this thread. It's probably way too restrictive for some sub ohm vapers, but seems to be appropriate for unregulated devices, especially if you look at the 4.2v column.

    dghff.jpg
    Well, not only is that chart outdated and overly restrictive for a number of batteries (there are a number of batteries that far exceed the approximate 7amp green-zone limit of that chart), it also strikes me as an inappropriate way to discuss/present safety because it doesn't actually address safety -- a user with a 4amp CDR battery is certainly not staying "safe" by vaping in the green zone for example.
     
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