question on bottles for heat steeping - glass bottle but plastic lid?

[Nic-holio]

Hi everyone,

Have been doing a lot more reading in the last week before making big dives into flavor mixing. The heat steeping idea makes a lot of sense for being able to taste-test small tester batches quicker - but I also "get" the concerns people have about plasticizers etc. being leeched into the liquids. BPA (bisphenol-A) is FDA approved and used in many plastics in food packaging despite being very well documented as harmful to reproductive health.

A couple links I Startpage'd up real quick:

http://www.ehhi.org/reports/plastics/bpa_health_effects.shtml

(mentions polycarbonate specifically):
http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-to-declare-bpa-a-reproductive-health-hazard/

If I'm not mistaken one of the main risks of plasticizers like BPA being released out of the plastics (if it is there) is under heat or microwaving. I don't know whether BPA or other harmful plasticizers are used in any of the plastic bottles in our little corner of the packaging world, but I haven't noticed any "BPA-free" selling points so far in the bottles for sale at the various e-liquid vendors out there either. Let's be honest, a lot of this stuff is probably made in China. But I'd rather avoid plastic altogether if I can, but that might be a tall order.

So I'm wondering if there are any known-safe recommendations for bottles when you know up front they are going to be used in a heater for a 4 to possibly 8 hour heat steeping scenario. I've been looking at the 2-dram glass bottles Specialty Bottle has, which should be big enough to mix up 5ml test mixes and have room to shake it around as well. But alas, they have plastic lids, as most bottles do. I think I've seen some that have metal lids but they usually have a plastic-coated liner.

I plan to pop the question to Specialty Bottle about the plastics used in their lids and what plasticizers they contain, and may or may not get a straight answer, but I'm wondering if there might be anybody else who has already blazed this trail and maybe knows of glass bottles out there that are KNOWN to have safe plastics for lids that will be heated around 145-150 degrees for 4+ hours. Or perhaps other ideas for containers have non-plastic lids that would be suitable for heat steeping.

Sorry, this probably is a little "out in left field". I wish I hadn't thought about it, but now that I have, it's a concern I have. It would be sad to be concerned about what ingredients are in liquids I'm mixing and yet be slowly poisoning or harming myself with the plastics.

I'll also report whatever I find out from Specialty Bottle.

Thanks,
Nic-holio

 

[bghill]

How about something like a glass baby food or condiment jar. Something with a metal lid. Next time you're in a grocery store look in the ketchup isle. Ton's of different sized jars.
Transfer to something else after it cools. I got a few maple syrup jars that are 60ml I use that have been up to 150 degrees in the ultra sonic.

 

[Nic-holio]

Thanks bghill - good ideas. I admit I'm sort of drawn to the 5-7ml size bottles for the specific purpose - but I'll also need larger bottles to mix and steep the successful recipes once I have some. [optimism!]

 

[froginblender]

Stick with glass bottles, and get yourself a 42$ magnetic stir plate.
I just bought one, and i'm in love with this thing.
Just heat ejuic in warm sink bath for 2 min or so, then put that puppy on the spin plate.
I can't believe i used to shake these bottles 3 times a day. no more!
well their $48 now...Stir Starter Magnetic Stir Plate Homebrew Yeast Home Beer Brewing Optional Flask | eBay

anyway...good luck n cheers....

p.s don't go over 120F on ejuice, you'll degrade nicotine and perhaps some of the flavoring.

My first 2 25 ml bottles of juice weren't that good. So i stuck to tried n true recipes, and never looked back.
dont' be shy about using 15ml glass bottles and only using 10 ml's of juice. or 5.

I have some recipes if you need...(tobacco's mainly , and menthol).

 

[Nic-holio]

I've looked at magnetic stirrers for other mixing/brewing stuff, but admittedly I've not seen one in person, just in pictures. Isn't it kind of difficult to get the stir bar back out of the vial/bottle? Can it actually spin in such small bottles? I may be misunderstanding but I know you are supposed to put the stir bar inside the container. I guess you'd just pour out the entire bottle into another container when it's done stirring through a strainer or something.

Anywho, thanks for the ideas. I'm pretty sold on the glass bottles/vials idea but it's the lids that have me concerned, at least if they're made of plastic. I read a lot of stuff here in the last week or so about heat steeping and while I did see the concern about nicotine starting to break down above 120 degrees mentioned, there doesn't seem to be universal agreement behind that. Not sure about the science either.

I'm not sure I would be heat steeping "leaded" mixes anyway (liquids with nicotine in them). Just looking for a way to speed up the process so I don't have to wait 2 weeks to find out what a mix is going to taste like in 2 weeks - and mix a larger bottle of something that is going to end up tasting like godzilla's armpit when it has steeped. (ha!)

I do know from my 3 years of vaping commercial/pre-mixed liquids and the little bit of mixing I've done so far that a new bottle of liquid simply mixed and shaken, even under hot running water, is not going to taste the same as it will in several days or weeks.

I'll figure something out. I just thought someone out there might have already looked into the safety of plastics a lot of us are using and assuming they are safe. I've learned over the years that FDA approval doesn't necessarily = safe. It might just mean somebody with a lot of money got their product approved by greasing someone's palms or it meets an agenda both parties are on board with. (example: research aspartame/nutrasweet/amino-sweet sometime, where it comes from, who pushed its approval through, and the diseases it is linked to)

 

[Nic-holio]

I did find where there are various manufacturers of borosilicate glass vials and you can get them with different kinds of screw-on lids with different linings. (pyrex is a brand of borosilicate)

They're not super cheap but being temperature and chem-resistant costs some clams I guess. One example brand I found that are possibly interesting are Wheaton 12ml Economy sample vials, like catalog # 224745, a clear 12ml vial with screw-on phenolic cap that is 14B rubber and PTFE lined. Although I'm not really sure how good these lining materials would be for heating liquid in (I'm not super knowledgeable about these things).

PDF product guide for this Wheaton brand:

http://www.andwinsci.com/images/catalogs/Wheaton_Vial_Guide.pdf

Looks like you could get these for around $1 apiece but you have to buy 200 of them. I don't plan to have that many flavor samples going at the same time haha.

Will keep looking around.

 

[dannyv45]

The hard glass like type plastic is what you need to be concerned about. You do not want to use these in heat processes. Those bottles will leech plasticizers in heated and prolonged storage situations. The soft squeeze bottles don't leech plasticizers but in them self will allow air to be absorbed through the walls of the bottle thus are more prone to NIC oxidation. So the best bottles for heat steep and storage are glass. Plastic caps are not much of a concern because of the small surface area in regards to the inner area of the bottle and as long as the bottles are stored up right the caps usually don't come in constant contact with the fluid.

 

[Nic-holio]

Thanks dannyv45. That makes sense.

As it turns out, most of the price of the specific model of borosilicate vials I mentioned above is the CAPS, not the glass. There are cheaper options for caps that fit these.

 

[dannyv45]

I've never seen a need to get anything fancy or do scientific research to Select a decent bottle. Glass is glass as far as bottles go and I never listen to all the hipe about which glass bottle is best. They all do a decent job in regards to DYI. Discussions on using tempered, boston rounds, thick walled, thin walled, thick bottom, thin bottom are all rediculous.

I get my bottles here in bulk with poly seal caps and they work great. If you buy them in lots of 12 it can be expensive but in lots of 72 or 144 there a steel with free shipping.

Boston Round Bottles

 

[Nic-holio]

Thanks Dannyv45. I saw your posts all throughout several very good threads I've been reading over the last couple weeks and appreciate you taking the time to post here.

I'm only being picky about getting vials with borosilicate glass because I know the various grades of borosilicate glass are (to varying degrees) less prone to to thermal shock - something I ran into this past week, unfortunately. Very slight overfill + temperature change = dangerous mess. It's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, and I'm not saying anyone should follow my example here.

 

[froginblender]

Look, just get a 100ml flask...here'http://wizardlabs.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_76&product_id=227
Get magnetic stirer. here: Magnetic Stir Plate: Lab Equipment | eBay $42 bucks

includes magnetic stir magnet for the 42 bucks.
.... the rest of it.....er....except you'll need digital scale, and a nice funnel....Funnel 40mm Short Stem Glass

now get to it son !! lol im drunk

 

[froginblender]

yes u r misunderstanding.
get 100 ml flask.....put spin magnet in that !!! lol.
Then poor that shiz in your bottle!

I've looked at magnetic stirrers for other mixing/brewing stuff, but admittedly I've not seen one in person, just in pictures. Isn't it kind of difficult to get the stir bar back out of the vial/bottle? Can it actually spin in such small bottles? I may be misunderstanding but I know you are supposed to put the stir bar inside the container. I guess you'd just pour out the entire bottle into another container when it's done stirring through a strainer or something.

Anywho, thanks for the ideas. I'm pretty sold on the glass bottles/vials idea but it's the lids that have me concerned, at least if they're made of plastic. I read a lot of stuff here in the last week or so about heat steeping and while I did see the concern about nicotine starting to break down above 120 degrees mentioned, there doesn't seem to be universal agreement behind that. Not sure about the science either.

I'm not sure I would be heat steeping "leaded" mixes anyway (liquids with nicotine in them). Just looking for a way to speed up the process so I don't have to wait 2 weeks to find out what a mix is going to taste like in 2 weeks - and mix a larger bottle of something that is going to end up tasting like godzilla's armpit when it has steeped. (ha!)

I do know from my 3 years of vaping commercial/pre-mixed liquids and the little bit of mixing I've done so far that a new bottle of liquid simply mixed and shaken, even under hot running water, is not going to taste the same as it will in several days or weeks.

I'll figure something out. I just thought someone out there might have already looked into the safety of plastics a lot of us are using and assuming they are safe. I've learned over the years that FDA approval doesn't necessarily = safe. It might just mean somebody with a lot of money got their product approved by greasing someone's palms or it meets an agenda both parties are on board with. (example: research aspartame/nutrasweet/amino-sweet sometime, where it comes from, who pushed its approval through, and the diseases it is linked to)

 

[froginblender]

u r wearing me out.
glass bottles....
Bottles, and Containers (30 ml ) bottles
flask is here
and funnels...get em all in 1 shot dog...!

Thanks dannyv45. That makes sense.

As it turns out, most of the price of the specific model of borosilicate vials I mentioned above is the CAPS, not the glass. There are cheaper options for caps that fit these.

 

[Train2]

Do your heat-steep without the lid on...
Just a thought!

(edit - the heat part, not the shake part)

Hi everyone,

Have been doing a lot more reading in the last week before making big dives into flavor mixing. The heat steeping idea makes a lot of sense for being able to taste-test small tester batches quicker - but I also "get" the concerns people have about plasticizers etc. being leeched into the liquids. BPA (bisphenol-A) is FDA approved and used in many plastics in food packaging despite being very well documented as harmful to reproductive health.

A couple links I Startpage'd up real quick:

Bisphenol A Health Effects :: EHHI :: Plastics that May Be Harmful to Children and Reproductive Health

(mentions polycarbonate specifically):
California Intends to Declare BPA a Reproductive Health Hazard - Scientific American

If I'm not mistaken one of the main risks of plasticizers like BPA being released out of the plastics (if it is there) is under heat or microwaving. I don't know whether BPA or other harmful plasticizers are used in any of the plastic bottles in our little corner of the packaging world, but I haven't noticed any "BPA-free" selling points so far in the bottles for sale at the various e-liquid vendors out there either. Let's be honest, a lot of this stuff is probably made in China. But I'd rather avoid plastic altogether if I can, but that might be a tall order.

So I'm wondering if there are any known-safe recommendations for bottles when you know up front they are going to be used in a heater for a 4 to possibly 8 hour heat steeping scenario. I've been looking at the 2-dram glass bottles Specialty Bottle has, which should be big enough to mix up 5ml test mixes and have room to shake it around as well. But alas, they have plastic lids, as most bottles do. I think I've seen some that have metal lids but they usually have a plastic-coated liner.

I plan to pop the question to Specialty Bottle about the plastics used in their lids and what plasticizers they contain, and may or may not get a straight answer, but I'm wondering if there might be anybody else who has already blazed this trail and maybe knows of glass bottles out there that are KNOWN to have safe plastics for lids that will be heated around 145-150 degrees for 4+ hours. Or perhaps other ideas for containers have non-plastic lids that would be suitable for heat steeping.

Sorry, this probably is a little "out in left field". I wish I hadn't thought about it, but now that I have, it's a concern I have. It would be sad to be concerned about what ingredients are in liquids I'm mixing and yet be slowly poisoning or harming myself with the plastics.

I'll also report whatever I find out from Specialty Bottle.

Thanks,
Nic-holio

 

[Zombo]

I've looked at magnetic stirrers for other mixing/brewing stuff, but admittedly I've not seen one in person, just in pictures. Isn't it kind of difficult to get the stir bar back out of the vial/bottle? Can it actually spin in such small bottles? I may be misunderstanding but I know you are supposed to put the stir bar inside the container. I guess you'd just pour out the entire bottle into another container when it's done stirring through a strainer or something.

I guess you could use the magnets to jimmy it up the side and out of the container.

 

[Rickajho]

Tjamls Dannyv45. I saw your posts all throughout several very good threads I've been reading over the last couple weeks and appreciate you taking the time to post here.

I'm only being picky about borosilicate glass because I know the various grades of borosilicate glass are (to varying degrees) less prone to to thermal shock - something I ran into this past week, unfortunately. It's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, and I'm not saying anyone should follow my example here.

Read Danny's beginner guide too: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ow-far-supplies-safety-first-time-juicer.html