Questions about Clone Quality and Ethics - Help a vet ;-)

[Chelonian]

Its not just those.
The forums are full of fixes for clones.
Is it because there are more clones around then originals?
I am sure that has something to do with it.
Also as I said there are originals problems.
However reading in the dedicated threads for originals, there seem to be less of a percentage of posts with problems.
After that it is up to you to decide whether or not the price differential is worth it to you.
And I will repeat myself... buy what you want.
Just be realistic about your expectations and actions.
No need to justify either choice.

 

[Kahuna Cowboy]

There's no empirical data either. Imperial data must be data from Great Britain. I'm sorry, I know that's a cheap shot, but I just couldn't help myself.

File that under FU Autocorrect. Lol

Empirical, impiricle, imperial, tomato, tomatoe.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Is it because there are more clones around then originals?
I am sure that has something to do with it.

I'd bet that is a major factor. I'd bet that there are 100 clones for every original.

I'd also bet that there are some who wouldn't talk about any problems with their originals because they cost so much and don't want to look like fools. Who wants to pay $200 for a mod (especially when a $40 - or cheaper - clone is available) only to announce to the world that their money was spent on a product with problems? It's simple human nature to hide flaws in something we spend a lot of money on.

 

[Chelonian]

It is indeed the nature of all humans to hide things to make our decisions look better....i agree with you there.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[pt91]

There is a difference between a clone and a counterfeit. A counterfeit is being sold as the original.

And there is also something to be said about holding nothing because it's hard to find or out of the budget. And as I, and many others, see it, there are no moral implications to buying clones so long as they aren't being passed off as originals.

I disagree. IMO a clone has no markings and those are few and far btwn. A counterfeit has a logo and usually a number. It is also the intent of the seller to mark it in name of the original designer/manufacturer....the counterfeits are almost always sold with the original makers name in the title and description. The fact that the buyer knows it is a counterfeit does not make it a clone or less unethical.
If you buy a Nike garment with a logo but not made by Nike and the seller uses the Nike name to sell, is it a clone? I can tell you that a brand as big as Nike will quickly to protect their brand and design.

 

[pt91]

You can legally make a garment like Nike with the same fabric in the same factory if possible but you cannot use the logo or advertise as "like nike" or put the logo on it. you can try but you will regret it.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

You can legally make a garment like Nike with the same fabric in the same factory if possible but you cannot use the logo or advertise as "like nike" or put the logo on it. you can try but you will regret it.

Clearly you haven't been to South America.

In Brazil there are fake Nike clothes EVERYWHERE.

And in China you can, hence all of the clones that we see.

I realize I'm splitting a very fine hair with my argument, but I maintain that so long as the item in question (regardless of what it is) isn't being passed on to the marketplace as an original, it's not a counterfeit, but a copy (or clone).

A MOD that is the exact shape, size, etc as a Nemesis but without the logo is just another original MOD.

 

[Chelonian]

Tubb...the problem is, that if you tried that line of reasoning, and got taken to court, you would lose.
I dont see what fake nike stuff in Brazil has to do with it.
If you want to buy clones, OK.
But why so much effort promoting that action?

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[pt91]

Clearly I was discussing this from the US. I am guessing you live here too from you blue grass title.
I am a designer and have traveled around the globe for almost 30 years. I have been a part of intellectual property law with several multi billion dollar corporations in my career. Clearly you have no idea where I have been.
Just because other less developed countries ignore these laws does not make it OK. Just more difficult to litigate.
You said
[B]A MOD that is the exact shape, size, etc as a Nemesis but without the logo is just another original MOD.[/B]
Just how is that original? And why do you think China puts a logo and serial number on it if not to add value?

Clearly you haven't been to South America.

In Brazil there are fake Nike clothes EVERYWHERE.

And in China you can, hence all of the clones that we see.

I realize I'm splitting a very fine hair with my argument, but I maintain that so long as the item in question (regardless of what it is) isn't being passed on to the marketplace as an original, it's not a counterfeit, but a copy (or clone).

A MOD that is the exact shape, size, etc as a Nemesis but without the logo is just another original MOD.

 

[Kahuna Cowboy]

I don't know, if you produce a fake dollar bill it's called a counterfeit.

If you paint a replica of the Mona Lisa and call it an original it can be called a forgery.

You can drive yourself nuts defining this crap. Lol

 

[Bad Ninja]

FYI
Most of the "fixes" for clones ARE the same "fixes" for the original.

Example: hot button misfire problem with the Valkyrie from Vicious Ant.
Same issue with the EHPro clone. Same fix.

That's about as 1:1 as it gets.

The original Valkyrie sold between $200-300
The clone is about 50$

The original sold out after 300 pieces
The clone only helped build hype around the original long after it was sold out and unavailable.


Legit owners got upset at the clone because now they cant sell their used one at twice the price .
It didnt affect vicious ant at all.
No moral problem.
Flippers suck.

 

[pt91]

I don't know, if you produce a fake dollar bill it's called a counterfeit.

If you paint a replica of the Mona Lisa and call it an original it can be called a forgery.

You can drive yourself nuts defining this crap. Lol

That is easy. Try either and get some prison time plus

 

[pt91]

Those are exceptions and IMO excuses. Do you think all chinese clones are as good or better than the originals? Have you tested them side by side?
That's about as 1:1 as it gets.

"The original Valkyrie sold between $200-300
The clone is about 50$

The original sold out after 300 pieces
The clone only helped build hype around the original long after it was sold out and unavailable.


Legit owners got upset at the clone because now they cant sell their used one at twice the price .
It didnt affect vicious ant at all.
No moral problem."
Flippers suck.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bad Ninja]

That is easy. Try either and get some prison time plus

Only if you try to pass it off as the real thing.
There are fake bills and coins in every toy shop in the US, and copies of the Mona Lisa everywhere.
It's one of the most copied painting in history.
It only becomes an issue when one is attempting to misrepresent the copy as the real thing.

 

[pt91]

Only if you try to pass it off as the real thing.
There are fake bills and coins in every toy shop in the US, and copies of the Mona Lisa everywhere.
It's one of the most copied painting in history.
It only becomes an issue when one is attempting to misrepresent the copy as the real thing.

so are you saying that selling a clone with serial number/name is not misrepresenting? Can you do that with high end hand bags, watches, burberry, etc. and get away with it? I know the answer to my question just so you know

 

[catilley1092]

I'd imagine that there's cloned devices of most every decent mod/tank on the market, as I've seen many cloned tanks on the eBay site.

My Astro mod is a clone & runs very good. The one thing that I'm more partial than anything in regards to clones are the coils & tanks. Many says "Kanger" on a white boxed package, but genuine KangerTech coils are in black boxes & has KangetTech on the top & bottom openings of the box. And they cost no more than the fakes, but are far better. KangerTech ProTanks also comes in the factory sealed box. Watch out for ads that states "Kanger OEM". These may or may not be originals.

The cloned coils has one major issue, leakage & flooding. Though this can happen on any device on a given day, KangerTech coils haven't so far. These has a slightly wider seat for a very flush fit, preventing leaks & flooding.

Cartomizers/tanks are also cloned, there are tons of lookalikes of KangerTech ProTank & other branded tanks. Some are even reported not to accept Genuine coils, which is a bad sign of what will become a nuisance to work with, at the least.

Even mod batteries are cloned, there are many such "AW" batteries on eBay that customers reports as fakes. Plus tons of fake ego brand slimline device batteries.

Other than paying attention to the fine print, look for misspelled words in ads, especially on the eBay site. Some claims they're Genuine, but that word is spelled something like "Geniuine" instead, it was this ad that led to a fake KangerTech ProTank. See, these sellers gets away with lots of deceptive crap & knows how to manipulate the eBay site & it's customers.

Still there are some cloned devices worth buying, they take a branded product, read customer reviews & attempt to correct what's wrong, then sell the items.

Like with any other generic item, there are good & bad ones & always be.

Cat

 

[Chelonian]

It always blows my mind that this is even a discussion.

Let's put it this way:

Say one of the cigalike companies.....Blu perhaps, puts a Malboro Light "clone" out.

Marked just like the real cig, same size, exact 1:1. There is even a fix from the original - all the tar is gone!

By the reasoning of some of the posters in this thread, that would be just fine.

Heck, Malboro wouldn't even care - it's OK, it's openly sold as a "clone"

No problems here....just move right along folks, there will be no lawyers here

 

[rhean]

It always blows my mind that this is even a discussion.

Let's put it this way:

Say one of the cigalike companies.....Blu perhaps, puts a Malboro Light "clone" out.

Marked just like the real cig, same size, exact 1:1. There is even a fix from the original - all the tar is gone!

By the reasoning of some of the posters in this thread, that would be just fine.

Heck, Malboro wouldn't even care - it's OK, it's openly sold as a "clone"

No problems here....just move right along folks, there will be no lawyers here

That would be very different, in that I'd make a wild guess that both Blu and the Marlboro are protected with patents, and would sue to protect themselves.

As far as my morality when it comes to clones: I first bought a brass M16, partly because it looked nothing like the original, which is made of ss and brass. It has a logo, but I switched that tube to the bottom, where I hold it. The logo has pretty much disappeared. My next mod clone was a Launcher, and I chose the clone without the Rai logo. It was partly morality, and partly because I don't like huge logos on anything, original or clone.

I'm a medievalist, and study an era where patents were unknown and people copied everything. For me, morality is not in the legalese, but in actual damages. Are clones DAMAGING sales of originals? There is some evidence that they are not; there is some evidence they could be helping the originals.

Without actual, reliable data proving real damage, this discussion goes nowhere.

 

[JaRod]

1) Some clones are indeed very good quality in particular Kaifun clones, the Ithaca clone I've seen around on the other hand is a real POS.
2) What do you think of a clone that comes in a box stating "made in Germany", sometimes stamped in the item itself, when its actually made in China? its the same as buying a pirated movie or software, or downloading a song without paying for it or buying a Rolex for 20 bucks.

 

[Chelonian]

Rhean:

If you use a lack of patent protection as a reason, then the reason is basically "Because I can get away with it". This has nothing to do with the actual action or morality of the action, it just deals with the consequence.
Stated in a purely logic sense, that is saying that if you can get away with it, it's OK to do it. I am sure that you can see where that line of reasoning could lead in life.

As for damages, while it would be interesting to see (I personally think that the market prices and availability for originals shows that the effect is minimal, but the effect upon new development is probably severe).
However, looking at damages is once again skipping over the action, and looking at the consequence. This falls into the same logic as above - if I can get away with it, it's good.

It's just trying to justify buying counterfeits. Semantics and hairsplitting won't change that fact.